Changing Landscapes - Chicagoland

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by VolklP19, Dec 28, 2016.

  1. Ryan7852

    Ryan7852 Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Mar 24, 2019
    Making the point of financial incentives in Europe being a catalyst for clubs to look in every nook and cranny for talent and more importantly to subsidize their development.

    In US it’s pay to play. Good coaches need to get paid and I’m sure most good coaches don’t get paid nearly enough. But since we have a single entity that has corrupted our federation it will ensure that financial incentives will remain weak. Thankfully our best continue to go to Europe and bypass this corrupted system - hopefully one day that will be at a scale that it makes for a tipping point to break up this monopoly that holds us back.

    Re: P2P here - is what it is... Good coaches need to be paid. Clubs can’t afford to subsidize the development of more than a few players. The pyramid is inverted but until the above is resolved (and the continuing growth/maturation of our soccer culture) nothing will change.
     
  2. Ryan7852

    Ryan7852 Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Mar 24, 2019
    Chicago Fire/FC United friendlies today make the latter look like Campton United.

    I’m sure the tiered system is going to cascade on down the age groups and results like this make it hard to argue against.

    on one hand I get it, but on the other it’s just such a gigantic sore thumb that sticks out only to show how far out of step we are with best practices around the world.
     
  3. VolklP19

    VolklP19 Member+

    Jun 23, 2010
    Illinois
    I'm freezing my ass off in Cincinnati right now!:eek:

    I could sure use a nice neat of Arbeg or Laphroaig!
     
  4. #2879 feyenoordsoccerfan, Feb 23, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
    Your point is wrong as those numbers you mention are non existent. De Jong wasnot developed by Ajax and de Ligt was sold as a player out of their team, so no SP.
    Anyway, the whole idea of our clubs doing development as a revenue source is wrong, as that is a failed business MO. I constantly read this in the US threads and I wonder where that idea has come from.
    Clubs develop youth for their first team, not for a business profit as a sales object.
    De Jong (and Virgil van Dijk) were developed by Willem II. These werenot doing that to loose them to other clubs. They loose them because money power clubs come knocking to take advantage of their work. That's why SP was introduced, to at least compensate them for their loss of those players not performing for their clubs. Willem II has a good run this season and for a long time was third. What would have been possible if those two were still at the club.

    So your idea of clubs running around the country looking for talents is wrong too. Kids start to play in all generation amateur clubs and there starts the selection to determine who is the better player to get into the higher team. Our amateur clubs (which are membership clubs. owned by the members) have kids/youth teams with quality level rankings. Depending on how good you are you get in the 1st, 2nd etc team. Most amateur clubs have a partnership with local pro clubs to alert them when a kid is really good.
     
  5. Neko975

    Neko975 Member

    Red Star
    Serbia
    Jul 4, 2018
    I was a bit disappointed with what FCU u13 presented on the field on Saturday.
    They've had some ups and downs in the fall, won vs Saint Louis team that is very competitive and lost to the teams that are nowhere near that level.
    Game that they've played vs Fire in the Fall they lost 4:1 but FCU deserved to at least tie that game. Many missed opportunity for them in the second half.
    Game on Saturday was one sided. I don't know if they were missing some players but they did not look like team that can compete at that level.
     
  6. Ryan7852

    Ryan7852 Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Mar 24, 2019
    100
    100% incorrect save for your point on where those kids came from Willem etc.

    Don’t have time to fully respond but will shortly.

    reality is they have to get them to first team to make the $.
     
  7. wrigley717

    wrigley717 New Member

    Aug 13, 2019
    Not sure it is fair to judge the FCUDA U13 team or the Fire for that matter, based upon a friendly played in February. Yes, the FC team was flat, but they are a very talented group with tremendous potential. They are most definitely able to compete at the same level as the Fire. We'll see what the game looks like when they meet again at the end of the Spring season.
     
  8. Ryan7852

    Ryan7852 Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Mar 24, 2019
    AJAX business model is to develop and sell players. Period.

    Contrast them with Madrid/Barca/Man U/Chelsea/Juve (all who try and sell players for a profit too) who look to build dynasty’s and generate revenue that way.

    Ajax, famously, is almost solely and exclusively built like a factory (not in a negative connotation but a positive one) bring in the raw materials, polish them and sell at peak value.

    You’re right - the number I threw out is most certainly way off base and that money they made off of those two (Frenkie/de Ligt) was not a solidarity payment but actual cash to the club (however that is broken out minus agent fees, etc etc).

    And to be sure clubs like Willem received a solidarity payment - I’m sure in the high 6 figures if not low 7 figures. This example was really my point with Sockers. Sockers never received a dime with all the players they developed that signed contracts in Europe. And that’s wrong imo. (But that’s a much larger discussion that my thumbs can’t handle!)

    And make no mistake PSV and Ajax and the rest are in a fight for the future Frenkies and do indeed scour Holland through scouting networks to find and then secure them. They do this throughout Dutch colonies as well (and beyond). And yes everyone(Amateur clubs) is looking to feed the big clubs... but competition is fierce to find those gems. They’re just way too much money at stake not to be proactive and beat the others to the punch as we say.

    google the NYTimes article on Ajax’s academy from 10 years ago or so...it’s pretty good giving a general overview.

    if this wasn’t Ajax’s business model they would have kept Frenkie/de Ligt and tried to build a dynasty based on the biz models of the super clubs Barca/Madrid/Juve/etc etc etc.
    Instead it’s not just Frenkie and de Ligt it’s now Ziyech (Chelsea) and soon to be others. AJAX unloading that great team from last year because market value is at its peak for those guys.
    They’re already starting over looking to do it all over again and they have a e a stable that is chock full of young talent.
     
  9. upper left

    upper left Member

    Crystal Palace
    Uruguay
    Jan 27, 2018
    So what were the scores from the Fire FCU friendlies?
     
  10. Ryan7852

    Ryan7852 Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Mar 24, 2019
    U16 Fire 9-1

    U15 Fire 1-0

    U14 Fire 4-1

    U13 Fire 7-0

    U12 PA Fire 8-1
     
  11. smfw

    smfw Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Apr 10, 2019
    Most of the YNT ID seems to occur at around age 14 - teams pretty locked down by the 05 level -
    So whats the point of joining a DA roster (with all its restrictions) at a 15,16,17 level - it seems all the players have been ID already -

    And I'll take it a step further esp for girls with the limited professional pathway straight from DA - why is it better than other pathways?
     
  12. Ryan7852

    Ryan7852 Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Mar 24, 2019
    I’m not 100% on this, but would bet many full national team players that start at u14’s or u15’s do not move all the way through to full men’s/women’s squads.
     
  13. smfw

    smfw Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Apr 10, 2019
    Possibly true - however the "ID clinics" seem to top out at the 05 age group so if not "ID" by then - whats the point of DA?
     
    Driven and upper left repped this.
  14. AtypicalSoccerMom

    AtypicalSoccerMom New Member

    Jan 9, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My DD teammate is in England with the u16 GNT. This is her first call up. Some kids from the summer u16 team were not invited to camp this cycle, so teams might change a little over the years. We always have scouts at our DA games. For what it's worth, I think they are looking for demonstrated soccer IQ and composure on the ball rather than a gritty player.
     
  15. Hitcat

    Hitcat Member

    Chicago Fire
    Germany
    Feb 7, 2020
    D1 college ball, NWSL, USL, MLS, La Liga, Euro. It's not all about the national team. DA is the path boys side, there's no real match. Girls DA is gonna try to shove ECNL out of the way. I dont pay attention too much to the girls side though so I have no real idea on when that final hit is gonna happen with NWSL players dropping to go to Europe.
     
  16. GotSoccerIsDumb

    Fire
    United States
    May 30, 2019
    The point is to create an environment for players, even outside the YNT, to develop using minimum club and coaching standards. The YNT players are just an outcome of this.

    Even if you don't make the YNT, would training more with more educated coaches not be valuable? I see a DA club currently training 4-5 days a week and an ECNL club trains twice. That's the point of the DA.
     
  17. GotSoccerIsDumb

    Fire
    United States
    May 30, 2019
    Does anyone think Eclipse is sweating the fact that they're not getting any YNT selections? I don't see any evidence that it's a problem for them. But then I think about it from a business perspective: why bother with the 1-2 YNT players that might leave your club for the DA to keep that dream alive when you can run two full clubs in the ECNL? Lose $2500/year from one player and gain tens of thousands from a second club, meanwhile keeping anyone else in Chicago out of the ECNL? Twice the revenue, zero competition. Whats there to sweat?
     
  18. smfw

    smfw Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Apr 10, 2019
    Isn't it hard to tell what the scouts are looking for as well as who they are looking at? I don't think the DA players even know or get to see any scout reports.
     
  19. smfw

    smfw Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Apr 10, 2019
    The DA training schedule for some clubs from December to March can be pretty thin - I'm not sure if on average they are training on the ball much more than 2 days a week. When you add roster sizes, substitution rules, and annual games played not sure if DA is truly getting more time on the ball than ECNL. Just a different schedule.
     
    Driven repped this.
  20. upper left

    upper left Member

    Crystal Palace
    Uruguay
    Jan 27, 2018
    I think the point was actually to create an environment for the benefit of the handful of YNT prospects, and surround that group of 20-60 prospects per age group with 1,500 - 2,000 practice cones.

    The 4-5 days per week, and rigid rules, don't necessarily benefit those kids who want to develop but will never attract nor expect YNT attention. Most of the kids in GDA are just looking to play in college and they have other supports, coaches, and interests outside of their GDA club that could develop these kids as players and people. But they are effectively locked down by GDA and must follow the same regimen as all other GDA players. Joy for the game, developing creativity on the field, and having the time to explore other interests in life are often sacrificed with the commitment that comes with GDA.

    I think the ongoing changes to BDA and the MLS-backed programs splintering off will lead to changes that better serve those focused on pursuing YNT and pro careers, as well as creating better environments on those whose goals are a notch or two lower.
     
    smfw repped this.
  21. smfw

    smfw Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Apr 10, 2019
    Very much agree -
     
  22. SpiceBoy

    SpiceBoy Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Aug 2, 2017
    Could you expand upon exactly what the "rigid rules" of GDA are? I can see "no high School soccer" as a bit rigid but also see that as a benefit and a choice.

    More importantly how does GDA sacrifice Joy for the game and creativity on the field? One more practice a week and they sacrifice all other interests? If USSF has DA rules/guidelines limiting creativity please provide a link to actual USSF materials.
     
  23. Ryan7852

    Ryan7852 Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Mar 24, 2019
    DA/ECNL to most kids = the highest competitive platform they can participate in and the club that is nearest to them with either one of those designations.

    That and the perks of really fun trips with their teammates/friends to fun locales like San Diego, Phoenix, etc. etc. 2-3 times a year.

    Good work if you can get it.

    I’m sure there’s awesome ECNL clubs and horrible ones. I bet there’s awesome DA clubs and very weak DA clubs.

    I’m almost 100% positive that for 95% of the kids doing “DA” their parents aren’t paying that kind of money bc their kids hate it and it’s joyless and if they could only break free of DA Bondage they’d immediately run into the arms of HS soccer.

    Further I think it’s clear that ECNL created, from scratch, the closest thing to a women’s league that rivaled the boys DA before GDA.

    And it’s equally clear our federation is going to slowly turn the screws on ecnl which in effect will say “thanks ecnl, we’ll take it from here”.

    On that last part I hope I’m wrong.
     
  24. upper left

    upper left Member

    Crystal Palace
    Uruguay
    Jan 27, 2018
    Not that eager to engage in this debate again, but briefly,
    Rigid rules = limitations on outside competition, training, limiting participating in college ID camps, in-game substitution rules that don't match college, scheduling decisions made by federation, no friendlies unless USSF rules enforced.

    This is obviously more qualitative, and some kids are surly going to be all-in with the amount of the training, if it is good. Slapping GDA badges on MRL level clubs doesn't mean you are magically getting better coaching.

    Early on there seemed to be a push for every club to mimic the WNT preference for the 4-3-3 formation. I've seen some of their training material, but can't find it now.

    Four practices a week with a game on many weekends, yes, the extra one or two days a week of practice do reduce the opportunities to train outside the academy structure, or to participate in just about any other activity.

    The substitution rules cause many girls to play safe which stunts creativity, this has been discussed before. The pressure to win causes this in any league, but the substitution rules of DA compound it.

    The high school thing has been discussed too often to repeat, but for a lot of girls it is real.
     
  25. MarkM

    MarkM New Member

    Liverpool FC
    Belgium
    Sep 18, 2019
    Good points. To build on them, the no-reentry sub rules are also used in DA college showcase tournaments. Even though the vast majority of DA players will never play for a youth national team in international competition, US Soccer doesn't forgo the sub rule for showcases so players can get an extended look in front of college coaches, since college soccer is the ultimate goal for most DA players. The fact that US Soccer won't change the sub rules for showcases demonstrates the before-mentioned rigidness.

    Worse yet, showcase matches count in the DA standings, so coaches are going to play to win these contests too, which means bottom third players may play very little, and college scouts that may only watch for a half, or even 15 minutes, may never see them. Many of these players are solid college prospects, if not at D1, then maybe at D2 or D3. Oh, and remember the school of thought that playing with an emphasis on winning can inhibit player development? Well, the DA structure has all of the same incentives to win regional conferences and national championships just like the other national youth leagues.
     

Share This Page