Glorious day for me as team and not nation orientated soccer fan Leverkusen wins 2-0 against Olympiakos Piraeus and is the second team in CL history after Dynamo Kiev in 1999 to qualify for the second group stage after losses in the first two games. Though Bayer still suffers under many injuries (still Nowotny, Sebescen, Ramelow and today Juan again) and Piraeus never won a CL road game, the shape is obviously getting better and better. Today they dominated the game as they did in the last season - if they only had a striker like Ulf Kirsten five years ago, they'd win their games much higher. Also you can nicely see how Jan Simak is getting more and more self confidence with every good action he's having. Looks positive to me for the future, though in the second round much luck is required to make it to the quarter finals. Bayern loses 1-2 in La Coruna and even missed the chance to qualify for the UEFA Cup. Never before they failed in the first group stage. This of course gives much reason to speculate: - what is the financial effect? Bayern surely planned with the second group stage and now faces a loss of about 20M. I'm pretty sure that this won't get them into trouble, but it'll definitely hurt them as they're having the most expensive roster in club history. Player sales won't be necessary though. - what is the effect for the players? The club will be stricter now. Players like Thiam, N Kovac, Fink and Zickler can go - but DFL won't allow a transfer in the winter break if they apply their announced rules (see YA: New transfer problems in Germany). - what is the effect for Hitzfeld? No short term effect, but the officials will think about the future. It seems that - as in Dortmund - he fails when trying to build a new generation after a successful era, at least on international stage. If the national championship gets endangered, they'll fire Hitzfeld, otherwise it is possible that they do a coaching change for the next season. - what is the effect for the officials? They are being nerved. Hoeneß once again proves that he can start psychological wars on others from his throne, but he can't deal with criticism directed against Bayern. Rummenigge is deeply disappointed and already was talking about a disastrous performance at halftime - at the beginning it was him who finally demanded attractive soccer of "Bayern's best roster ever". After the game he addressed the players with words like "This is a black day for Bayern. 1 point in 5 games is a nightmare. This definitely is more than a disappointment, it's a shame." But all will stay in office of course. - what is the effect for the Bundesliga? The most interesting question. It can turn into both extremes: they can entirely fail this season or they'll triumph. Latter option is possible as the high decorated roster can concentrate on one aim as Dortmund in the last season. But: Dortmund and FC Hollywood is a difference. The high decorated roster can turn out to be Bayern's problem now. An "A-List" of field players is: R Kovac, Kuffour, Linke, Sagnol, Ballack, Deisler, Hargreaves, Jeremies, Lizarazu, Salihamidzic, Scholl, Ze Roberto, Elber, Pizarro, Santa Cruz - 15 players who always want to play and were calmed down by getting playing time due to the many games. Additionally there's a "B-List" with less important or talented players, who also won't love to be outside: Feulner, Fink, N Kovac, Tarnat, Thiam, Zickler. If one thing already turned out to be true is, that this team is no team, e.g. the injured Kahn doesn't care what his colleagues are doing and is playing golf while Bayern plays against Hannover; the following night he is seen in a disco at 5 a.m. (50.000 Euro fine); before he publically already regretted to not have Effenberg anymore and that the system is too offensive; additionally he seems frustrated about playing just an average season himself. Further problems: Deisler has to be integrated after the winter break and the media demands that Germany's biggest talent has to start. Hargreaves needs playing time as well as he's already flirting with offers from England - without playing time he'll sign there. Jeremies is someone who's causing trouble and bad mood if he's not playing. Elber is complaining via the media if he isn't seeing enough playing time. Ze Roberto flirts with returning to Brazil when being on the bench. The officials love Santa Cruz and want that Hitzfeld supports him... whatever this season brings, it is no easy situation for them.
if haifa wins their next match and leverkusen loses, Leverkusen is eliminated. Leverkusen has 9points and a GD of 0 Haifa has 6 points and GD of 0 they have both scored 9 and suffered 9 Both are on the road for the last matchday Man. United - Leverkusen Olympiakos - M. Haifa leverkusen needs a draw to advance, haifa needs a win and a bayer loss I would have though youd looked at that olaf before you went on your long tirade
Sorry, but Leverkusen defeated Haifa 2-0 and 2-1. Direct comparison counts first, so ManU's painful performance was in vain.
hmm...figures UEFA would make their own rules on tiebreakers then... Carry on with your tirade olaf, the stage is yours
olafgb, i don't think i have ever said it before, so i'll say it now- thanks for all the info you post here. i for one enjoyed reading the 'tirade'. i was wondering when we will finally see deisler on the field. its early '03 right?
Sammer denies taunting Gunners DORTMUND, Germany, Oct 29 (Reuters) - Borussia Dortmund coach Matthias Sammer has denied that he called Arsenal 'arrogant' ahead of Wednesday's Champions League clash between the two clubs. http://www.soccernet.com/championsleague/news/2002/1029/20021029sammerafc.html ------------------ ....well, the gunners are rubbish afterall.
I don't deny that I'm extremely happy about yesterday's development and the Leverkusen part I'm writing surely is emotional. But the Bayern part definitely is nothing like a tirade, this is what you'll hear on Bayern during the next days and weeks. Rather be glad and say to yourself "Olaf told me first" . Of course I don't know what Bayern is going to do and I don't claim to know the further development - I hope this is clear. All aspects I'm mentioning will be debated now and you all can feel free to discuss them. Here's the whole speech of Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (and not mine): "It is a black day for FC Bayern. We did not succeed to turn the game around, lost 1-2. And if I'm honest - watching the standings, five games, one point - then it's a bit of a nightmare what's coming to my mind. Of course this is not what we imagined. Together we had five successful years in the Champions League. We always reached at least the quarter finals, but also semifinals, finals and as highlight the title in 2001. We may not seek for excuses. What we experienced today, is a disappointment and a disgrace for FC Bayern. And this certainly is not what's possible with this team. Sure, we can name many reasons. Starting with the 2-3 home loss against La Coruna, where we were too relaxed and a bit too arrogant. There the problems started. The whole thing continued until today. With this loss we are not only out of the Champions League, we sadly also missed the chance to qualify for the UEFA Cup. This is double painful. For the image of FC Bayern, for the sportive section it is an absolute disappointment. Also financially this creates a hole that we'll have to close. And this surely won't be an easy task. In the last weeks we often talked about fate, about missing luck and bad luck. But if we're honest, we've got to say that we didn't enforce the luck. What I was seeing in the first 65 to 70 minutes today was lacking passion. In such games for the big points you've got to show passion - we didn't succeed with that today. The remaining competitions have to be a big challenge now. We are on top of the Bundesliga and difficult opponents expect us now. Sunday in Bremen, then the champion Dortmund is coming to Munich. In between there is the DFB-Cup with Hannover. In the next weeks it has to be the duty to at least partially make forget about the Champions League. I am thinking about words like discipline - also besides the pitch - like passion, like fight. These words are necessary to give the success that the club requires."
Bayern could lose their next two games against Bremen and an in-form Dortmund team. It is very possible that they could be behind 1860 (who play Bielefeld at home on saturday I believe) in the table in a couple of weeks. That would be interesting! olafgb, Leverkusen did look good last night. Despite Bayer only scoring one goal I thought that forward Berbatov (spell?) had a good game. He showed some great touches and keeps possesion well, he does the very things Elber cannot. I still believe Bayer are a better team than Bayern and will continue to recover from their early season slump.
I'm of two minds about Bayern's CL elimination. On the one hand, it's always nice in a way to see them lose, since they've won so much in the past. I get bored seeing the same team win the league three out of every four years, and it's nice to see their excessive pride being followed by a fall. On the other hand it's a shame, as Bayern has always practiced fiscal responsibility. Hoeneß has consistently condemned the reckless spending habits of clubs like Real Madrid for years now. While I generally enjoy watching Bayern lose, another part of me takes pleasure in seeing them beat teams with much more expensive payrolls.
Now all Haifa has to do to move on to the UEFA Cup is NOT lose at Olympaikos by 3 goals...which won't be easy.
Keep in mind Haifa's 'home' games have not been in Israel. That makes their results even more remarkable.
Haifa did a very good job in the Champions League. Without Marko Babic, who scored three of Bayer's four goals against them (and who has 1 CL and 1 BL goal only in other games), they would have had good chances to advance. Good luck for them in Piraeus, but it won't be easy as they are extremely strong at home.
Well just following up Olaf and to keep this thread alive, i just want to add some ramblings Sports Guy style. - First and with a star next to it. I HATE KOLLER!!! That was the worst dive i have ever seen in my life. Now i am no Seaman fan but he really got screwed on that one. For a guy that is like what 6 foot 8 or so you'd think that Koller could a) win a header once in a while or b) stay on his feel when someone who is half his size touches him. I almost fought a lot of Dortmund fans in a bar after the PK call because i was shouting "Schauspieler! Schauspieler!" a bit too much. I will not argue about this one, the man is a complete bum. - Glad to see Leverkusen go on, and more importantly actually start playing decently together. it's also nice to see Placente back. - Bayern going out is just great fun. Can't even put it into words - I saw an interview on tv after the games where Arsene Wenger was giving interviews in german, did anyone else see this? did anyone else know this was possible? - Nice to see Dortmund go through as well, if only because it gives me another chance to catch games. Comments?
Arsene Wenger's German is better - or at least less thickly accented - than his English. Keep in mind he is from the Alsace-Lorraine region of France, and that his dialect is most likely a German one.
I saw the interview with Wenger as well---and was surprised! I wondered if he might be from Alsace---or had lived in Switz. or something...thanks for clearing it up... Although accented I thought his German was much better than I expected it to be when he stepped up to the mic.
That was indeed a joke. I mean, I don't hate Koller, but in this game the ref was a jerk. It started with the free kick leading to Dortmund's equaliser. Someone of Arsenal had his leg high, but he was at the ball while Koller jumped in karate-like - they hit each other and the ref whistled for Koller... And at the pk I heard the whistle and thought "yes, absolutely clear - yellow for diving - that's what he deserves for this ridiculous jump" - I got a beer out of the fridge and when I returned I had to recognise that the jerk whistled pk... Somehow this is following the pro Dortmund whistling of Hannover and Bremen... I knew it Btw. on www.sport1.de you can really vote on who should be Hitzfeld's successor in 2003...
Dortmund are often the beneficiaries of questionable officiating. It happened numerous times last season and helped them win the title IMO (while Freiburg got stiffed in game after game and eventually got relegated). I honestly believe it's something about Dortmund's stadium and crowd support that influences referees more than in other places.
I have not seen the Koller PK, but having seen Koller at least a half-dozen times play over the last couple years, I don't believe he is a diver. In fact, I've seen him multiple times try to keep his feet in the box and make a play rather than go down and hope for a foul, the most recent being last weekend. On the other hand, some of the other folks on Dortmund are just ridiculous. Mr. Ewerthon, Mr. Amoroso, please take a bow. Flat out ridiculous--if a defender comes within shouting distance of these guys in the box, the go flopping like they were shot. Nothing close to contact, and they act like they were disembowled. Ewerthon is particularly outrageous. What boggles my mind is why the refs don't card these guys.
And while I'm at it, the most egregious incident was last year against St. Pauli, when some short, squat African player come off the bench and took a blatant, obvious dive--at least obvious to everyone but the ref, who called a penalty. The Dortmund player got up and started celebrating like he had won the Powerball lottery, ran to the Dormund bench, and got a big hug from Sammer. It was embarassing--hey, look at me, I fooled the ref and I'm now the most important player on the pitch for my team, so celebrate my greatness. They must teach this crap at Dortmund, and from my personal observations, I don't think there is any team in the BL that tries to con referees more than Dortmund (which of course makes it somewhat ironic that I'm defending Koller, but he's better than his teammates for sure).
No, it wasn't Addo--it was David Odonkor--he is listed as being German by Kicker, so my descriptor of him as an African player was misleading. Sorry.
I didn't realise that about Wenger, interesting. I've seen Koller twice live now and countless times on TV, I think that he is a ridiculious diver, so we'll have to agree to disagree. When i was watching the game the thought never came into my mind that he would call a PK on that, which just made me even more outraged when he did. I'm still mad about it 2 days later.
For me Köller played for the penalty and got it, Seaman went for a 50/50 ball and didn't get but also didn't make contact with Köller. Funny thing is of Seaman had of stood back Köller would probably have missed anyway! Anyone remeber his miss from about one metre last season? By the way Wenger is from Straßbourg where a lot of people speak German as well French.