CBA negotiations

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by SouthRef, Jan 5, 2024.

  1. davidjd

    davidjd Member+

    Jun 30, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry, but that just seems ridiculous. Do others actually believe that at the league level people believe the ARs' value are mainly for offside? If that's the case, then there are much bigger problems with much more difficult hills to climb.
     
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  2. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Certainly makes sense. I’ll just mention that I’m not the first one on here to say that the job of an assistant referee at the professional/international level will be vastly different in 5-7 years than it is today.
     
  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've said that. But at the same time, I don't believe anyone in the league office has thought for more than a nanosecond about the evolving nature of the assistant referee role in the future. Maybe Agoos had a fleeting thought at some point, but there's no way that some grand theory has been contemplated.
     
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  4. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’ll buy that - simplest explanation being the most likely and such.
     
  5. Dayton Ref

    Dayton Ref Member+

    May 3, 2012
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire

    This was already on the books. The question is will the discussion stray into other expenditures since the next negotiation is on Wednesday
     
  6. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    At 48 years old, this surely isn’t a guy who is taking these replacement assignments to “skip the line” and further his own career going forward. He’s likely taking these assignments because of love for the game and/or because it’s his only and last opportunity to reach a level well beyond what he could normally take on. In terms of the controversial ethics of taking these assignments, I think his situation is comparatively less dilemmatic than those of most of the other replacement officials.

    This position, combined with the game last night, makes me feel genuinely bad for him for how it went. I just hope that he 100% knew and understood what he was getting into when he accepted this gig, and that he wasn’t misled or forced into a game that was beyond what he was expecting to be assigned.
     
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  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also, if he's PRO's option for the whistle on a Messi away match during primetime in LA... that says quite a bit about the overall quality of the pool they believe they are working with.
     
  8. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    I was surprised to see him in the middle when you have multiple referees with USLC/USL1/MLSNP experience like Lorenzo Hernandez, Amin Hadzic and Kyle Johnston who were 4ths/CRs.
     
  9. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. I get love of the game and experience and all that but I would hope there's some insight that some things are just out of your league.

    If I was asked to do this (narrator: I was not asked), the first and final reason I would decline is that I would be hopelessly out of my depth from the time I walked in, no matter how cool the experience.
     
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  10. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    My guess is some of the 4ths this weekend are gonna be in the middle next week.

    Some of the names that had assignments/4ths this week are potentially real candidates to be in PRO as real officials within the next couple of years. They have the right age and right fitness/"look."

    I have no idea about any of this, but I wonder if there is a part of the assignments that PRO is trying to protect some of these actual viable PRO candidates from themselves with these assignments?

    I.e. you don't want to put Lorenzo Hernandez on an Inter Miami game or any high profile MLS game and have it blow up in his face and you essentially sink him before his career even starts?

    If some 50 year old musician botches an Inter Miami vs. LA Galaxy match who really cares in the long term? But a promising official in his 20s with potential to be a long standing official?

    It's probably just a wild speculation and I doubt Geiger and Co. are really thinking that far ahead or that many levels deep?
     
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  11. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Ciampi had a year of experience in USL1 too. On paper his resume actually isn’t so different from Cristian Campo Hernandez, who was the big positive standout in Week 1.

    [Unreliable information warning: I also read a rumor that Ciampi had experience in some capacity in Serie C when he was living in Italy? I can’t find a reliable source to back up that information but it would track with the document PRO published last week (I don’t know who else the replacement referee with “FIFA and/or professional experience in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd divisions in other countries including… Italy” would be). I’m putting this out here to seek more information on the veracity of that rumor.]
     
  12. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    On the topic of that document actually (
    ), we can start to match up referees to countries that were listed here, but there are still apparently some ones that are missing.

    Brazil: Santos? Maybe Bruno Rizo?
    Turkey: Demirhan (AR’d in the Turkish Super Lig and served Week 1 as an AR, but has had a few USL1 games as referee also)
    Spain: Campo Hernandez (3rd division AR)
    Italy: Ciampi?
    Jamaica: ???
    Mexico: Bonilla (3rd division referee), and Herrera (Liga MX referee. 13 some odd years ago.)
    Poland: ???

    I don’t know why we see gaps for Poland and Jamaica. Am I missing someone, or are there names that were originally on the list that we haven’t seen yet?
     
  13. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is a particular group amongst the scabs for whom I have some small amount of sympathy due to the circumstances by which they came into the fray. Our Maestro is not one of them.
     
  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There was someone on the list originally from Poland who was assigned and then gave the match back.

    No idea about Jamaica; there was one other change but I can't necessarily tie it to Jamaica.

    Regardless, I noted at the time that some (all?) of the implications from this document were stretches.
     
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  15. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    El Rayo Californiano repped this.
  16. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    Garber:

    MLS has an advanced program to further the careers of minorities both in our front offices but also with officials, and a number of these guys may not have had the opportunity if not for what's happening now.
    Oh, boy.
     
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He’s not actually making the argument he thinks he’s making.
     
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  18. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah...
     
  19. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I do understand people may have issues with the full time PRO referee crew, but the idea that lack of diversity is one of those issues-and for the commissioner to even imply that-defies belief to me.
     
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  20. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I guess it depends on what your definition of diversity is. If you're just saying "non-white" officials in MLS as referees and ARs than obviously his comments would be a straight lie.

    But if you think about the fact that MLS is in it's entire history has had what four or five black men ever officiate a game in it's entire history (Gus Silva, Richard Heron, Abbey O. and Jon Freemon)?

    Or that this country, until this year, never had a black referee on the international panel?

    Then you can start making an argument that there hasn't been enough diversity in the referee ranks.
     
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  21. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don’t think that he’s seriously making this argument - this is public relations- framing the issue in the most positive light for your side.

    reality is not the most important thing here
     
  22. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Diversity amongst referees is definitely important and it's absolutely a postive that PRO has specifically been working to identify and recruit more people of color into their orbit. The Commissioner turning around and using them as props to virtue signal during a labor dispute is disgustingly cynical and reeks of union busting.
     
  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is obviously a potentially fraught topic, so I'll try to make two succinct points:

    1) If Garber is arguing there currently isn't enough diversity within the PRO referee ranks, then that's on PRO (and, by extension, him). It's not like PSRA picks the referees that get hired by PRO. It's the other way around.

    2) It might have been noticeable (and now is noticeable, given Garber's comments) that from a strictly percentage standpoint, the number of black replacement match officials is high relative to the number of full-time black match officials. There is a black outreach/development program that Joe Fletcher, PRO Chief Refereeing Officer, is quite close to. We are all free to draw our own conclusions on how this outcome came about, if it's good or bad for the long-term future of those referees, and if Garber was briefed on any such specific outreach.
     

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