Okay I'll bite on the youth league topic. I'm fairly new to the area, but it seems to me that there are a number of great youth clubs in the area and the state for that matter. Not just CASL, but TFC (triangle), CSC/CUFC (Charlotte) and the Greensboro club seem to be well organized. Not to mention the college programs in the immediate area and growing hispanic population some with there own soccer league. What I'm getting at is how else would one gauge whether or not a certain area of the country is a hotbed for soccer? I had never heard of Salt Lake City being a great soccer city until RSL happened and so far (still very early) they are doing great. Of course the money helped that situation just as it will any expansion team. I know this topic for mls expansion in NC has been batted around bs several times, but maybe at least an A-league team? Paging Mr. Mead to set us straight.
Oy, vey.... Find us an owner first. If there is a friendly, it'll most likely be played at SAS Stadium, former home to the Carolina Courage of the WUSA and current home to the USL PDL's Raleigh CASL Elite -> www.raleighelite.com I don't know what they hell they'd be "testing." Maybe a test for a USL-1 franchise. MLS will -or will not- expand based on ownership and stadia. Currently there are neither. But if both existed, the attendance for a friendly wouldn't really factor into things.
The "Triad" (or Greensboro/Winston-Salem/High Point) wouldn't draw appreciable fans from either Charlotte or the "Triangle" (Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill). Additionally, the Triad is the smallest of the three major metro areas. Raleigh-Durham is ready to go for a USL side. I heard rumors a year ago about interest in an A-League franchise. One of the problems that both the Raleigh Flyers and Raleigh Capital Xpress had was the fact that they played their games either at Broughton High School (crappy) or WRAL Field (way outta town on the wrong side of the Triangle).
I agree, the idea that substantial attendance support from the 2 bigger markets would help the Triad is suspect. How many from SF go to SJ games? And that's actually almost the same market. How about Cincy & Cleveland for Columbus? Anything more than 30 minutes away for any team probably means hundreds of attendees at best for any MLS team IMO.
Does anyone remember the effort put out in the triad area that was mentioned earlier. I recall a web site, SSS plans, selling of seat licenses...
Close. The original site plan for "SAS Soccer Complex" contained a 20k seat stadium. What is now SAS Stadium is not the original main stadium, but a built up secondary field. You can see the complex on this Google Map. The land designated on the original plan for the main stadium remains undeveloped. Jim Goodnight. SAS was poised to take over operation of the Carolina Courage from Time-Warner Cable when the WUSA ceased operations. Whether they really wanted to own a team - or the million or so per year in losses would've just been part of the marketing budget keeping "SAS Stadium" on sports pages is for the reader to decide. Exactly. The other Jim G. (Jim Goodman/Capital Broadcasting) owns the Durham Bulls, but I don't have any reason to suspect he's interested in soccer. I don't buy it. If any place in NC could support an MLS franchise, I'd guess the Triangle would be it. It'd be tough, but doable. I'm not counting on it happening, though.
Involving CASL would be a nightmarish mistake. That is if you meant in MLS team operations. If you, however, meant acting as a front for MLS team labeled youth elite teams, then sure. I have friends at CASL, and I know and like Charlie and Sue and the operational staff, but I wouldn't want that organization involved in any decision making capacity whatsoever. Yuck. Stand? Ground? What country is this? Just kidding, I use the phrases, too. But read a previous post. SAS Stadium could possibly be expanded to 10-12k, but not easily any higher. Undeveloped land on the site is available should a 20k stadium be needed. Yes and no. North Carolina has a lot of "disconnects". I see know reason to expect a "Triad regulars" contingent to number more than a hundred or so. Other folks that live around here will understand. Absolutely none. I'm guessing it may be a test of USL expansion more than anything.
I wouldn't say that Hockey has struggled. When the Canes did moderately well the team's attendance was fine to quite good. When the Canes jacked up their prices and team fell to 30th out of 30 attendance fell. Go figure. ------ The Courage weren't poorly supported. 5,000/game was good support, and the team's losses were completely manageable and declining. The Courage weren't that far from break-even. ------ How do you claim that soccer is more foreign in a metropolitan area that has the Carolina Tarheel womens dynasty? Has men's NCAA champions from Duke and UNC. Had players like Rocket Roy and Tab Ramos at NC State? Do you live here? You realize that NC and RDU have the highest rates of hispanic population growth in the country. And this is mostly first generation growth - meaning the ties to soccer are still pretty tight. We now have both Univision (50) and Telefutura (26) local TV channels.
This can't be ignored. The Durham Bulls, in a 10,000 seat stadium, average about 9,500 on Friday/Saturday nights. I'm not sure what the Carolina Mudcats draw, but I know they're a healthy AA franchise. But let's be fair. The Bulls/Mudcats combine for at best 17k. Cities not much larger than RDU pack in 30-40k for MLB games on the weekend. Trying to get 15k/game for an MLS team on a Saturday night would be made more difficult by the Bulls, but the Clippers haven't exactly killed off the Crew in Columbus, either.
Winston-Salem. They held MLS friendlies in 2000 and 2001. The 2000 game was, I think, between DC United and Miami Fusion FC. Then Miami GM Doug Hamilton's wife is from Winston-Salem. The 2001 friendly was Miami vs Marathon of Honduras and was held one day after the epic USA/HON WCQ at RFK Stadium in September. Scott Bales and I were pretty much the only media at the second friendly. They sold PSLs for a downtown W-S stadium that, according to Scott, was "on the wrong side of the tracks." My memory was that it was basically a handful of well-meaning but delusional soccer dads.
It's impossible to tell the difference btw Venezuelan, Dominican, Phillipino (yes!!), Bolivian, etc. The differences are in the accents mainly. In Central America and Chiapas, Mexico, they use "vos" instead of "tu" for the informal, 2nd person singular subject pronoun. Or you can tell their sports paraphenalia. If they're Mexican, you'll Club America, Chivas, Tigres, Pumas, etc.
Or you can just check out the subtle differences and some not-so subtle differences of products and decoration at the local restaurants and stores. I'd say that the dominant source of Hispanic population growth in Durham is Mexico, but that there are also a lot of Salvadorans and Hondurans, too.
I love when guys with one post come in here, and write *ONE* sentence about some key issue. It happens all the time, and I always think, why should I believe this guy??? Of course, I *do* believe this guy, because he agrees with me. Andy, I don't know if you meant to, but on the Triad as a location, you clipped the part where I said the same thing you said...there's a theory they'll draw from Charlotte and the Triangle, but it won't happen in numbers high enough to make a difference. And to reiterate what someone wrote about the Flyers...they drew fairly well in a central Raleigh location, with almost no marketing. When they move to the absolute northeast corner of the Triangle, and of Raleigh, their attendance went into the crapper. That was a stupid decision. They figured the better stadium would help them, but geez, they just destroyed the number of people within 15 minutes drive of the stadium.
The Raleigh-Durham Metro Area is home to 1,430,962 people. The Durham Bulls of Triple-A baseball's International League drew 493,629 of them last season, for an average of 6,953 fans per game. The Carolina Mudcats of Double-A baseball's Southern League drew 245,810 of them last season for an average of 3,511 fans per game. Overall, 739,439 fans attended games of the two teams, for a combined per game attendance of 10,414 fans. The Columbus Metro Area is home to 1,900,497 people. The Columbus Clippers of Triple-A baseball's International League drew 489,177 of them last season for an average of 6,889 fans per game. So, despite the Columbus Metro Area being home to 469,535 more residents than Raleigh-Durham, the Clippers attracted 3,525 fewer fans to their games than the Bulls and Mudcats did combined. I only bring this up to illustrate why the Clippers might impact Crew attendance less than the Bulls and Mudcats would potentially impact attendance for a Research Trianle-based MLS expansion team: Columbus is home to nearly half-a-million more residents, but is also home to one less minor-league baseball team.
But you're missing the key thing. Minor league baseball attendance averages are weekend game driven. The Bulls run about 95% capacity on Friday and Saturday nights. They' probably average around 4,500 the rest of the week. Columbus - in a larger stadium, possibly average well over 10k on Saturday nights. I don't know. But their "impact" on the Columbus market isn't "6,889".
With all due respect, the "key thing" is that a Research Triangle-based Major League Soccer franchise would have to take into consideration the home schedule of two minor-league baseball franchises in order to minimize the number of scheduling conflicts with those clubs. The Columbus Crew only has to worry about trying to avoid schedule overlap with a single baseball team. Taking a look at this year's schedules as an example, the Crew and Clippers have games scheduled on the same day four times: a single Friday, two Saturdays and a single Wednesday. On three of the dates (the Friday, a Saturday and the Wednesday) there is a direct overlap, with the start of the games occuring within 20 minutes of one another. On the other Saturday the Crew's match kicks off at 4:00 PM, with the Clippers' game beginning at 7:05 PM. Those four dates represent a quarter of the Crew's home schedule. One can assume that the management of the Durham Bulls and Carolina Mudcats do all that they can to avoid having too many overlapping game dates with each other. This raises the possibility that it would be more difficult for a Raleigh-Durham based MLS franchise to schedule home match dates that don't overlap with either baseball team... particularly on coveted weekend dates. Potentially, having twice as many minor-league baseball teams sharing their market means that a Raleigh-Durham MLS team may well have twice as many home dates that will conflict with those of the two baseball teams. If this turned out to be true, half of the Raleigh-Durham MLS home schedule would be in conflict with the baseball teams... thus having a greater impact on the R-D team than that which the Crew faces.
This thread is in the wrong place. Raleigh-Durham isn't under consideration for an MLS franchise - and the Bulls, Mudcats, Burlington Indians, Carolina Dynamo, Raleigh CASL Elite, North Carolina Tigers, Durham Cardinals (if they still exist) and any other semi-pro or pro minor league team in the market won't have much of an impact on whether or not a USL Division 1 team could survive at SAS Stadium. Moderators: Please move this thread to the USL forum.
Well, I think that it is safe to say that the vast majority of people who have posted in this thread realize that there is no active effort currently underway to bring a Major League Soccer franchise to the Research Triangle. That said, what has been discussed in this thread is the suitability of the Raleigh-Durham Metropolitan Area to play host to a Major League Soccer franchise, as well as the market's potential strengths and weaknesses in doing so. Hence, the reason that the thread exists in the MLS: Expansion, Former & Stadiums forum rather than the USL forum. All of this said, do the moderators really see a need to move the thread?
You wouldn't get this not living here, but there's surprisingly little overlap between the two teams. First, the stadiums are at least 35 miles apart. Second, they have carved out different niches. The Mudcats are the family team, the Bulls are the yuppie/young singles team. I mean, for the people who live more or less equidistant. Like I wrote, the stadiums are at least 35 miles apart.
The WRAL Soccer Center (or whatver they are calling it now) is a heck of a lot more convenient now that 540 goes to Capital.
Bringing back some memories! Lived in Chapel Hill, Durham and Cary growing up. Played youth soccer in CASL and against Broughton in high school. My parents and brother still live in the area. Were the Flyers A-League like the Rhinos are currently A-League, and for what dates? This is speaks to what I've been thinking about: the number of people who might regularly travel from their corner of the triangle (Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill) to another corner for sporting events. Does anyone travel from Durham to watch the Mudcats in Raleigh instead of the Bulls nearby, or vice versa? The triangle sports scene is a lot more balkanized than other similarly-sized metropolitan areas. I think the colleges contribute to this, kind of carving up the area between them. Because of this mentality, it might take a little more effort for someone from say Raleigh to travel to Chapel Hill for a sporting event. I'd be interested to hear how well the Hurricanes drew people from Durham and Chapel Hill to their Raleigh arena. I also wonder if any people from the Triangle regualrly travel to Charlotte for Panthers games. If someone wanted to start a football or basketball team in North Carolina, I would probably advise against locating it in the Triangle, and not just because the Charlotte area is larger. From what I experienced and from what I remember, college sports comes first in people's minds, though this may be changing as the pro sports get more entrenched. Hockey and soccer are a little different however, since pro teams wouldn't have to compete for spectators with the universities. There are certainly extremely successful university soccer teams in the area, but they don't draw like football or ACC basketball. A pro soccer team, especially one located in Cary (i.e., closer to the center of the Triangle), could draw pretty well from all three of the corners, I think. My guess is that the Courage were able to draw pretty evenly from all three towns (correct me if I'm wrong). I think Cary could be a respectable site for a pro league, maybe even an MLS team if MLS came to the area further down the line. It would need to draw both the Hispanic population and the suburban crowds to get numbers appropriate for an MLS venue. I also think locals would have to perceive the team as serious and legitimate and professional to attend games if they had to go out of their way a bit. I would defintely travel regularly to the Triad from the Triangle for an MLS team but maybe not for a USL team. I think the Triangle would be an excellent place for a USL-1 team. It could attract a lot of interest if it were perceived as a serious professional team. There is rivalry potential with the Charleston team. Attendance could be really good, especially if there were a way to draw on the Hispanic market. What about a Chivas style experiment? Could Vergara fund the new team and call it Chivas USL?
People go from Raleigh to Durham, but the Mudcats aren't in Raleigh. They're in Zebulon, which is at least 15 minutes east of Raleigh. So I'd be shocked if 100 people went from Durham over the course of a season. I mean, I live in NE Raleigh, and the drive time is about the same to either place. For most Raleighites, the Bulls are closer. Yeah. We got tix from a season ticket holder who couldn't go to a game. (We now hate those people, as it was possibly the worst NFL game ever played, a loss to the Falcons in the 1-15 season. The Falcons were TERRIBLE that day, and still won.) Andy could tell you. What level are the Hammerheads? Now, THAT'S a road trip that'd be fun!!