Yellow and red cards will be shown to managers in four of the top five divisions of English football and in the Carabao Cup, EFL Trophy and Checkatrade Trophy, as part of a major shakeup to improve touchline behaviour. The new rules, which work in a similar way to cards for players, will be used in the Championship and Leagues One and Two and will punish managers who are 'guilty of irresponsible behaviour'. They will also be implemented in the National League - where four yellow cards will result in a one-match ban - meaning a total of 96 clubs will need to adapt to the regulations. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-cards-shown-badly-behaved-bosses-season.html
I literally just facepalmed at my desk. Let's see. Referees are so willing to give yellow cards for dissent on the field AND yellow cards always halt dissent at the professional level. Given how accurate those statements are, it's no wonder we'd extend this practice to managers. This is so stupid. First off, clean up the dissent on the field first. That's a bigger stain on the game. Second, when managers get formally warned with current practices, it usually leads to a halfway decent conversation between referee and manager. Frankly, it usually works. So we're going to replace that procedure with a yellow card, which will be more confrontational and will invite managers to behave like players, where they further the dissent and push the line in an effort to get that last word in? Third, adding in yellow card accumulation for managers is idiotic. Whether you like it or not, referees are now going to be scrutinized and might subconsciously question themselves before warning a manager who is on his third yellow card. Referees are going to be accused of "looking for controversy" because a yellow card is now going to be much more noticeable and carry more repercussions than the formal warning or quiet word. Additionally, referees are going to be scrutinized and questioned when they opt to have a word without showing a yellow card. Fourth and finally, the vast majority of the time, when a manager is dismissed, he simply leaves. Adding the confrontation of a red card to the equation is going to reduce the frequency of a manager just leaving.
I pretty much agree with MR at the professional level--I just don't see what it is going to solve in the real world. (Though this was signaled as a coming attraction in the 18-19 LOTG.) I would, however, like it to be implemented at the youth level. With inexperienced coaches and referees, the card is a clear and objective communication that a certain level has been reached and a warning of what the next level is. As a youth I reffed in a league that used cards for coaches. Having that as a communication tool was valuable--though as best I can recall I only used it once. Especially for teenage refs dealing with adults, the confrontation is daunting and the communication difficult -- a card can assist with both of those.
Agree at the youth level. Showing cards to coaches is one of the few HS rule differences I like (cautioned players having to leave the field being another one}.
Given that cards were invented to avoid miscommunication when language was a problem between players and refs, couldn't that just as much apply to coaches? That said, I generally agree with the sentiments given by other postings. Except that, in addition to communicating clearly to the players, the yellow card also communicates to the fans what has happened. Maybe that's a reason for extending it to coaches. I heartily concur with being able to show cards to youth and rec league coaches. Our youth leagues implemented it long ago, before it was an approved modification to the Laws. Coaches may not understand the "Ask/Tell/Dismiss" talks you're trying to have to improve coach behavior. They may not understand a ref saying that the behavior is going to be noted in the game report - most would think, "So what? No one reads those things." They do understand the significance of a piece of colored plastic.
Ha...funnily enough it's one thing in High School I totally disagree with. But it's good to disagree sometimes. For me, it's putting the coaches and the youth (and that is what they are) on the same level, and I don't think they should be. I believe coaches and players should be treated differently, handled differently, talked to differently and therefore by extension....ejected differently. Once you reduce (or elevate) them to the same level and discipline them the same, you lose the ability to differentiate them on other levels. IMVHO...
I’m going to always disagree with carding coaches unless they come up with a way that we don’t have to pick one of the forms of misconduct to apply the card to. Coaches need to behave responsibly, simple as that. If we can find some graduated scale that still allows the treatment to cover any of the broad range of stupid things coaches can do to get dismissed then I’ll consider it.
But is there an epidemic of this sort of confusion? It's not like on the field, where a lack of showing a card could be very confusing, given how many often referees talk to players. When's the last time you saw a referee in a professional match come over to talk to a coach more than twice? Anyone watching the EPL knows that if a referee comes over to a technical area a second time to address the same person, that person is leaving. In fact, it's quite likely that person is leaving the first time and people understand the point to the stands just as well as they'd understand a red card. There's also the confusion over who a card is being shown to. The rare times we have to caution or send off a substitute on the bench, it's always a bit of a charade with the "who me?" from six different people. You've got to get the person to stand up and come to the touch line to make it clear to everyone. We want to open this can of worms to coaches now? With assistant coaches claiming post-game that the card was actually shown to them (or should have been shown to them)? Do we think many professional head coaches are going to come to the touch line to receive a yellow card if they've already sat back down? This is ripe for gamesmanship at the professional level. I disagree with this for two reasons. The first is laid out well above. I don't want coach and bench personnel on the same level as players. There are higher expectations for bench personnel behavior right now and that's a good thing. If you streamline the available punishment and how that punishment gets communicated, you're starting down the path where the behavior will be evaluated the same way. It's an invitation for coaches to behave in a similar fashion to players. There is some dissent right now on the field that is allowed (wrongly, yes, but still allowed) that would get an automatic dismissal for bench personnel. We should keep it that way and work on improving on-field behavior, rather than implementing alleged solutions that could worsen bench behavior. The second addresses @socal lurker's argument above. Long ago, when I first started as a teenager, I could card coaches in my local U8/10 league. And I did. It was a good thing for the reasons he pointed out. But as I progressed, it initially became a very bad thing. Being able to card coaches was a crutch and I didn't develop my skills for handling them and administering the technical area. I understand the vast majority of youth referees never advance to a high level, so as I write this, I am reconsidering my position. But just be aware that if you're mentoring or working with young referees who come from leagues where they can card coaches, technical area administrative deficiencies are going to be something you want to address as they make those first few steps to up the ladder.
That's easy: DT, 2CT, OFFINABUS. When did you ever caution or dismiss a coach, HS or otherwise, for something that amounted to anything different than that?
I think you're right that it adds another piece of the transition upward. But not only is it true that most never leave the youth level, but perhaps also that crutch at the start might mean more refs stayed and got to the point they would have to develop those other skills?
Or when you card the coach for the player that walks out with no shinguards after you have already walked them back to their coach with earrings and you tell the coach the player will run lines for you to save them the card.
When a pair of coaches got into an argument with each other from their respective technical areas. Nothing either of them said would fall into OFFINABUS but they were certainly not behaving responsibly and were sent. Or when a coach reached out onto the field to stop a pass to the opponent. If you allowed a coach to stay after that the. You might as well salt the field and set it ablaze. Your game is over.
The whole thing is mind boggling, but I wonder if the accumulation thing isn’t the point- it’s a way of having some real penalty for the managers who want to ride that line of irresponsibility every game. Without accumulation, a whole lot of assholery goes unpunished. But I h a t e carding coaches. The tools we have are fine, effective, and allow the referee to address the coach in way that maintains his dignity. And if he doesn’t appreciate it, then he gets to leave. I’ve never sent a non-high school coach, but have gotten to tell innumerable times, as I’m sure most of us have. I have sent off plenty of hs coaches- maybe because they tend to be less knowledgeable and more confrontational, but maybe because the way I manage them involved using more cards than words.
Yeah, earrings too. But like I said, this is easy. Nothing about adding cards to the mix makes it any harder. It's just another tool. Weren't coaches shown cards back when cards were first introduced? Wasn't not showing cards to coaches a further refinement?
I honestly don't know exactly how to think of this. A part of me agrees with @MassachusettsRef . I can see where a) we would want to deal with coaches in a different manner and b) at higher levels, coaches will respond better to ask/tell/dismiss. The other part of me really likes how the card shows everyone that I have officially issued a caution or a sendoff to a coach and EVERYONE knows that it's happened. I'd probably say that in high school and below (but probably not U17 or higher in club), a card is completely understandable. I know when I've done younger kids' games, no one really understands ask/tell/dismiss - including the coaches (I used it in a U11 game - the coaches really didn't know I was basically one step from launching one of them). I also agree completely that young referees can use the cards to communicate what those who have officiated for many years can do using their voices and words. Long story short - I agree that cards aren't necessary at high-level older amateur games and professional games, but would be a very valuable tool for younger games.
Though perhaps that is as much a commentary on how the cards were used as with whether the cards are used? Seems it can go back to what MR said about them being a crutch.
Where do those two examples fit on the scale. They should certainly be immediate dismissals but if we’re going to label it OFFINABUS then I see plenty of appeals coming. And what about VC? Based on the list you gave That isnt misconduct. Leaving the threshold for their behavior broad and open ended is critical. They should be held to a higher standard than players. If we can find a way to create a scale of that then I’ll consoder the cards. Otherwise we need to stay out of trying to fit square pegs in round holes.
When the FFA (Australia) implemented this, they actually outright listed examples of levels of behaviour: https://www.fourfourtwo.com.au/news/ffa-to-trial-yellowred-cards-for-coaches-476549 For example, "Tell" (aka Caution) include:
That’s a pretty good list but the kicking or throwing stuff should be a dismissal. That kind of behavior is childish and irresponsible at best. Please tell me they at least left a “red card” as failed to act in a responsible manner so we can fit all of the stupid shenanigans into it if necessary.
I guess this is the part I really don't get in the objections here. By the time I send a coach off, he (don't recall ever sending a female coach ... huh) is pretty far past any dignity to be maintained. And there's no reason to lose this. You still send a coach for irresponsible behavior. You just do it by holding up a piece of red plastic instead of pointing to the parking lot. Is one any more dignified or less visible than the other? In HS and youth games, this.
The plastic isn’t the issue per se. It’s the implication that the coaches behavior is a form of misconduct by associating it with a card that’s a problem. How often do we debate player actions and try to “fit” them to one of the listed misconducts. More than is probably necessary but imagine all of the other garbage we’d be forced to quantify if they went to the NFHS model where we have to pick one of the cardable reasons in order to discipline a coach. The red card is easy we leave that simply as “irresponsible behavior”. It’s that step before that. What do we put here without handcuffing the referees into having to pick a specific reason why they showed the card. You know how people can be, if it isn’t specifically listed as wrong, somewhere along the line a rules committee is either going to have to add it to an ever growing list, or they will say it shouldn’t have been a card because they didn’t specifically say it was a card (even though everyone will probably disagree with the behavior). When we add things like that it opens us up to be questioned on the strict interpretation or writings. We don’t need to open that door with coaches. The only way I could see this workIng is if this was the criteria, and I’m well aware it’s a mouthful. Caution = semi irresponsible behavior Send Off = irresponsible behavior Leave it at that. This keeps the power in the hands of the referees and gives the people that want their moment in the sun for receiving their card exactly what they deserve.
Fair enough. I can only offer that I personally have had no problems whatsoever in dealing with HS coaches under the cards regime, and that I subscribe to the view that for younger/newer referees it might – might, mind you – be a little easier for them to deal with coaches if they had the card arrows in their quiver.