Carding coaches

Discussion in 'Referee' started by soccerchick584, Oct 7, 2003.

  1. soccerchick584

    soccerchick584 New Member

    Jul 28, 2003
    Tennessee
    I just got certified a couple of weeks ago, and just center reffed my first couple of games. In the U16, the coach was disrespecting the linesman. At halftime, the linesman told me about this and I told him I would talk to the coach. When I did, the coach started cussing at me. I decided enough was enough and I gave him a red card. Afterwards, the head ref of the league told me this was a wrong move and we weren't supposed to card coaches. My question is, if I can't card a coach, what do I do the next time that happens?
     
  2. kevbrunton

    kevbrunton New Member

    Feb 27, 2001
    Edwardsburg, MI
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You can eject them or tell them to leave, you just don't actually show any cards.

    If they fail to leave, you abandon the game -- also if you eject a coach of a youth game and there isn't an assistant coach, you also abandon the game.

    Whether you eject the coach or abandon the game or both, provide a good detailed description of the events in your match report.
     
  3. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI
    Yes by the letter of the law you are not allowed to card coaches, even though local leagues may give you that power. Either way, you can, like kevbrunton said, tell the coach he must leave the field area. If he doesn't do so in a reasonable time, abandon the match (you have to follow through if he doesn't leave). This also applies to parents that get out of hand too, first tell the coach to control his parents, and if he (or she) does not control them, abandon the match. And of course make a full game report to the proper people so any further action may be taken. You do have power over everyone on that field, it just needs to be applied in different ways. Oh and welcome to refereeing, hope you stay a while :D.
     
  4. soccerchick584

    soccerchick584 New Member

    Jul 28, 2003
    Tennessee
    Yeah, I think I will stick around for a while. It's actually pretty fun. But, in all fairness, just telling him he has to leave wouldn't really make him leave, would it? And abandoning the match. That's hurting the kids for something they have no control over. Is postponing the match until he is gone an option?
     
  5. rcleopard

    rcleopard New Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    Oh yes, he'll leave. If he doesn't leave, then you abandon the match and send the report into the league, and odds are you might not see that coach coaching again. As for the kids and it being unfair to them.. well.. you didn't pick the coach. You got the game handed to you. It's your job to uphold the spirit of the game and to make things work. If the coach stops you from doing that.. if any spectator stops you from doing that.. if any player stops you from doing that.. then you need to make them go. And it's definatly in your rights to do that.

    Jarrod
     
  6. soccerchick584

    soccerchick584 New Member

    Jul 28, 2003
    Tennessee
    Fair enough. Can I get into any kind of trouble for carding the coach?
     
  7. rcleopard

    rcleopard New Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    No. If you're in the right and you eject the coach as a Center Referee, you will note it all in the misconduct report. If you're right, then you're going to be fine. If you're not, then don't send him.

    Also, remember that you cannot card coaches. The equivellance is this:

    Color of card Action towards Coach

    Yellow translates over to a warning.

    Red translates over to an ejection.

    Jarrod
     
  8. nsa

    nsa Member+

    New England Revolution; Boston Breakers
    United States
    Feb 22, 1999
    Notboston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll take issue with the wording of this. You can talk to (warn) a coach just like you talk to a player.

    When s/he crosses the line, you inform him/her that the misconduct (i.e. caution) will be reported to the league.

    Further incidents or a significant incident may result in expulsion for misconduct after caution or for a direct send-off.

    Read the portion of the Administrative Handbook about match reports. Keep it simple and to the point. List the incident(s) and the action you took and the time of the match when things occured.
     
  9. rcleopard

    rcleopard New Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    nsa is correct. Let me clarify this because i don't want it to be confusing. (This is one of those important things)

    A coach or member of a team's non playing staff cannot be carded. In exchange for that, referees are allowed to warn or expel the coach. A warning is similar to a yellow card in the sense that it does not actually remove the coach or staffmember from the game. It's different because a coach or staffmember can receive multiple warnings. Most first warnings I've seen issued are terse, quick warnings like:

    "Watch it, coach!"
    "Behave, Coach"
    "Coach, Technical Instructions Only"
    "Coach, please don't scream at me"

    Those tend to be the first stage.

    The second stage gets a little rougher.

    "Coach, it's your choice whether you stay or leave"
    "Coach, you yell at my AR again, and you're gone."
    "Coach, this is your last warning."

    As a referee, you are allowed to expel the coach. That is similar to giving a player a red card. The coach (or staffmember) must leave the technical area and the field of play. IF he does not or IF he continues to coach (I've heard of someone doing this by cellphone), you can abandon the match.

    Overall, being a referee is very important. You are trusted with the field, and for that time, it is YOUR field. Study your laws, study any followups/clarifications, and do NOT be afraid to exercise authority when you have to.

    Jarrod
     
  10. Statesman

    Statesman New Member

    Sep 16, 2001
    The name says it all
    There's always my favorite line which has circulated through the ranks here in Cal-North:

    "Hey coach, you have an assistant?"
    "Yeah..."

    "Start warming him up!" :)
     
  11. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI

    Oooo I like that one too! I learn so much here.

    As far as "good for the kids", that is not your problem, you have a job to do to run the match effectively. Actually, at U16, the kids should have some guts to tell their coach to shut up. When you warn the coach about his conduct, it may help to also pull that team's captains over and tell them "Hey you won't be playing much longer if your coach keeps it up". Of course this doesn't work as well at younger ages. Again, you can't make threats you aren't ready to follow through on.
     
  12. MPJ334

    MPJ334 New Member

    Dec 19, 2001
    Chelsea,New York, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i avoid making any threats. i'll warn and warn, but i don't say, "one more and you're gone." by doing that i put myself in the position that he has to go at the next comment. i don't threaten players with cards, either. same thing. i think i learned that hear, actually.
     
  13. soccerchick584

    soccerchick584 New Member

    Jul 28, 2003
    Tennessee
    I'm loving that! It's pretty funny. :)
     
  14. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI

    But how long do you keep warning and warning for? I guess I should not say "threat" per se, but I think one should let them know when they are near to crossing the line. I guess how you phrase that is up for debate.
     
  15. kevbrunton

    kevbrunton New Member

    Feb 27, 2001
    Edwardsburg, MI
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I will make comments to the coach sometimes like those listed by rcleopard, but when they cross the line to where I would show a yellow card, then I get formal about it.

    I say "Coach, you are now formally cautioned for misconduct" and I make note of it in my book (time of game, etc.).

    Any coach who knows anything about the game knows exactly what I mean by that and I have yet to have a coach continue.

    However, if a coach goes straight to abusive, toss him -- no warnings required. My son's philosophy is that he won't talk to the coaches, he turns a deaf ear and doesn't react to what they say. Once they've gone far enough to be tossed -- then he tosses them -- no warnings, no cautions. Different approaches work for different people.
     
  16. whipple

    whipple New Member

    May 15, 2001
    Massachusetts
    In a youth (FIFA/USSF?USYSA) match the coach has no status in the Laws, and though adult supervision is necessary, if someone in the bench area is behaving irresponsibly, then it is in everyone's best interest that they be dismissed, and, if necessary, replaced by someone who, hopefully, will behave responsibly. Do they need a warning? Mabye...maybe, not.

    While I had several occassions to dismiss coaches in the past, for the past ten years I have not found it necessary to dismiss a coach from a USSF match, and only recently broke my streak in a NF competition. The approach I use is proactive and not reactive and starts with the check-in.

    At the check in I remind the players to be at mid-field prior to all substitutions and that only players are allowed within ten yards of midfield, bench personel must remain in the technical area and three feet back from the line.

    If a coach starts forgetting his or her responsiblities, I will usually ignore the first occurance, remind them on the second and confront them on the third.

    The reminder is relatively innocuous. I ususally run by the bench without stopping play and if they are wandering, say "C'mon coach, stay back with your team", or if a verbal problem say "Coach, tactical to your players, only."

    If a confrontation is necessary, I will stop play, go over to the bench area, but ten yards or so from the coach and say: "Coach you must stay within your bench area. Do you understand?" or "Coach, tactical instructions to your players only. Do you understand?" Then I wait for the coach to answer.

    I will not restart play until the coach responds with a yes or a no. If they say "no", then I will dismiss them, however, this has not yet occurred. So far they have always said "Yes". Sometimes they try to add "...but...", however, by then I have already signalled the restart of play.

    The psychology of this is that by answering "Yes" the coach has made a committment, witnessed by everyone. Further, he does not actually know whether he has been warned or not, so most will err on the side of caution and behave. Even if they don't, the referee has not drawn a line on the sand, and restricted his options.

    One thing that is also helpful is a few minutes after the confrontation, to run by and say to the coach "Coach, if you want to we can discuss this after the match".

    Sherman
     
  17. ProfZodiac

    ProfZodiac Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Boston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I card coaches. Once again, vast minority among us all, I know, but it's something I do.

    Many of the coaches I have to deal with don't know as much about what they're doing as they think they do. A card will shut them up a hell of a lot quicker than "You're formally cautioned." I mean, that statement is just words. Nothing visual to back it up. With a card, everybody, including the parents, knows you're pissed. It'll make it very plain that you're not taking any crap.

    I understand why carding coaches isn't allowed (supposed to play a man short under a red card, are you going to pick someone to leave?), but BAYS allows it, so I use it. I haven't used it in a very long time, though. Hell, if I issue a single card in any given week, it must have been a violent game. I'm one of those "let the boys play" kind of refs. Not sure if that's a good thing.
     
  18. Statesman

    Statesman New Member

    Sep 16, 2001
    The name says it all
    That is not why it is not allowed, Prof. It is not allowed because the LOTG specifically state that the showing of cards is for players and substitutes alone. Anything that says otherwise is against FIFA and USSF and should not be followed -- including if it is stated in the BAYS rules. This is not a negotiable subject, unlike most of the modifications you find in youth soccer. I would highly recommend abandoning the practice of showing a card to a coach.

    And believe me, there are many ways the referee can make him or herself very visual when cautioning or ejecting a coach :)
     
  19. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI
    I must admit this, in my opinion, is the worst part of my refereeing abilities, dealing with coaches/parents. I find myself almost having a discussion with them while on the field, which I smack myself for after the fact. I'd love to hear the different methods people use to calm coaches/parents down that is with the flow of the game. I can stop everything to formally walk over to them and warn them, but I'm sure other folks here have their ways of dealing with them. I still like the "Get your assistant coach warmed up" line though.
     
  20. whipple

    whipple New Member

    May 15, 2001
    Massachusetts
    Adam,

    Last January, as you sat in your recert clinic at the Ramada Inn in Auburn, do you recall the very first question on your refresher test? It asked whether you could show a card to a coach. The correct answer is no, you may not show a card to a coach in a USSF match. This was not only discussed, it was emphasized.

    So why would you, as a USSF certified referee, directly go against the specific instructions of your SDI, State Committee, USSF National, FIFA, and the International Board? They could not be clearer.

    Why do you think that question was there? It was put there because a couple of misguided leagues who lack a thorough understanding of the Laws, made the mistake of asking referees to do that which was wrong, becasue they don't have the guts to enforce certain standards of behavior on their own member teams. They want you to do the dirty work for them.

    Bottom line, USSF certified referees do not show cards to anyone but players and substitutes. If you check your current BAYS policy, you will see that they have modified their instruction, so you have no excuse to show cards to coaches.

    Sherman
     
  21. jkc313

    jkc313 Member

    Nov 21, 2001
    I assume this was not a high school game where you are allowed to card coaches. Everywhere else in the world, cards are for players and subs only. If a coach cussed you you should simply tell him to leave the field and it's environs. You write up a thoruogh and accurate report and send it in to the appropriate authorities. I would suspect this gent will be sitting out 3 or more games. In the future,reserve your cards for players or subs. By the way, if the coach refuses to leave, you have to abandon the match and write a report. Sorry you had such a jerk your first time out. Hang in there, it gets better.
     
  22. jkc313

    jkc313 Member

    Nov 21, 2001
    Should have read this before my first answer. NO you may not postpone the match. Once he's cussed you, he has to go. 99.9% of the time they will. Abandoning the match is a blow to the players, but you do the a service by either getting rid of coaches that act like this or at least getting them to behave in the future. The USSF in recent recertification classes have all but begged us to stop taking abuse from coaches. Those that exhibit bad behavior have no business in this game and need to change their ways. They won't unless we referees do something about their boorish behavior.
     
  23. rcleopard

    rcleopard New Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    That's not correct.

    You may postpone or temporarily suspend the match as long as you need, so long as you account for the stoppage time. (Think about lightning storms.. we do it all the time for those).

    Jarrod
     
  24. Gary V

    Gary V Member+

    Feb 4, 2003
    SE Mich.
    WADR, waiting for a lightning storm to clear is far different than waiting for a dismissed coach to clear. We "postpone" or suspend the match until he's gone, but only provided he's gone within a reasonable length of time. Give him 2 or 3 minutes max - if he doesn't leave by then, he's not going to leave. You'd look pretty stupid continuing to cajole and plead. Since he won't leave, you leave.

    I'll bet if you write it up good, his suspension will be longer because he wouldn't leave.
     
  25. rcleopard

    rcleopard New Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    Well, yeah. But saying that we are not allowed to postpone a match is not a good thing to say. Different people might consider the two minutes or three minutes postponing the match instead of suspending it.

    Jarrod
     

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