card mechanics not part of the test but interesting in what we MUST do versus could d

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Grizzlierbear, Jan 15, 2003.

  1. Grizzlierbear

    Grizzlierbear New Member

    Jul 18, 2001
    canada no it is not
    During play on the field a Player performs a reckless tackle on opponent, referee plays advantage knowing he will caution at next stoppage. Play continues until stoppage at which time the same Player in question grabs the ball from the hands of an opponent and boots it away in disgust. The Player is now very confrontational to an opposing player who is upset at these seneless acts. You may fear a reprisal or further troubles. Detail your actions and reasoning but consider the following

    Can you consider this as a single cautionable event,
    whereby you need only show a single yellow card?

    Must the referee show two yellows than a red card to indicate the events corrctly?

    Could you direct red card with no yellow cards at all?
     
  2. nsa

    nsa Member+

    New England Revolution
    United States
    Feb 22, 1999
    Notboston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At the initial foul, after giving the verbal and physical signals for Advantage, let the Perp know, in no uncertain terms, "I'm coming back to you." In other words, I've already given him his caution, I just haven't shown him the card.

    After the second incident, immediately isolate the perp. Point out to the field to the vicinity of the first action and show him the yellow card for USB, the reckless foul. Then demonstrably point to the area of the second act and show the yellow card for dissent or delay of restart (pick one). Then show the red card and send off the player.
    Only if you choose to raise the threshold of "reckless foul" for the remainder of the game.
    Yes.
    Assuming that the straight red is for two cautions, no. If you are giving two cautions then you must show three cards (2 yellow and 1 red).
     
  3. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good explanation from nsa. I just cleared my response.

    GB, has just added another reason the CR needs to be communicating with the players during the game.
     
  4. whipple

    whipple New Member

    May 15, 2001
    Massachusetts
    Nat,

    One thing we might add to this, and as suggested in the Guide to Procedures..., is that when it looks as though players tempers may be on the boil, as in Griz's example, it is often a good idea to show the card, a yellow, first, before we record or isolate the player. This settles down the opponents, seeing that you are now dealing with it and prevents escalation and retaliation. In fact, I usually find that the minute I reach in my pocket, players tend to disperse rather quickly. Then we can go ahead and isolate the player, point to the spot of the first infringement, take care of the paperwork, show the second yellow and red and complete our business.

    Sherman
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I may be wrong, but I thought there was a position paper from USSF a few years ago that stated when a player commits two cautionable offences simultaneously (or in succession), the referee should show one yellow and then a red. That way, it is clear the player is being sent off for a second caution. The reasoning, as I was to understand it, was that showing the same card twice to the same player (yellow) and then a third card (red) is very awkward and brings undue attention to the referee.

    Now, I'm not saying I agree with that reasoning, but that' the reasoning as I remember it. Maybe I'm completely off base but I thought that this paper existed and that we may have even discussed it.
     
  6. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't recall the paper, but I do go back to this summer's world cup where I saw two instances of the second caution being shown and then the red card. The most obvious was Totti's against Korea where Moreno showed the second caution followed immediately thereafter by the red card.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Right. That mechanic is clear, Alberto. What's being talked about is when a player (who doesn't have any cautions) commits two cautionable offences either simultaneously or in succession (the second cautionable offence happens before the first caution is shown). I seem to remember a paper that says you show one yellow card, followed by the red card, rather than two yellow cards and a red card. Again, I could be wrong, but I know at the very least that this is something that has been brought up here before.
     
  8. Grizzlierbear

    Grizzlierbear New Member

    Jul 18, 2001
    canada no it is not
    Wasn't Totti carded in SEPERATE incidents though?? Earlier in the match he was cautioned and shown the yellow card and then later on the controversial dive for which he was shown a yellow then a red. Two seperate incidents?

    I too recall Mass REf that in the case where we are sending off a player for more than two cautionable act in a single event a yellow than a red is ok. Yellow followed by red indicates to me a second cautionable offence is responsible. Maybe we are wrong Mass REf but I recall being told this was ok as well?


    In the original case above lets take it one extreme further. Lets say the player does reckless tackle for one caution, apply advantage, stop play, then kicks the ball away, second caution and then smacks the opposing player? VC send off.

    As a referee I would show direct red, report the other incidents but no need to show the yellows? The direct red send off smack is the more serious and the fact that we were going to send him off for a double caution is mute although it is reported

    Assume the player has a caution previously in the match and in the same senario as I first described happens. Player on yellow all ready, committs two cautionable offences so we need show only one yellow and then red . Correct?, no point in showing the extra yellow as he was allready being sent off for the second reckless tackle, his kick away is meaningless except in your report.
     
  9. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was taught that you show the yellow card first, then the red card for two separate cautionable offenses on the same play. An example would be a cautionable tackle with the player then dissenting the card.

    For a spectator this is confusing, but you can explain to the player that he or she is also being cautioned for the second act and then show the red card. You just have to be sure to write all three cards up in the report.
     
  10. deep-throat

    deep-throat New Member

    May 24, 2001
    Not for the first time, MassachussetsRef got in before me, and again, he is correct :)

    The current USSF policy for this situation - when you want to issue essentially two seperate cautions to a player (followed by the red), and you have not had time to show the first one before he commits the second offence - the correct mechanic is to show only ONE yellow, followed by a red.

    Like MR, I dont necessarily like or agree with that instruction, but that is the USSF stance. If a player commits a foul for which you intend to issue a caution, but he then commits another offence for which you want to issue a seciond caution (assuming you dont want to go with just one and man-manage the situation), you show only one yellow, inform him that it's the second one because he commited an earlier offence which you had not had time to deal with, then you show red.
     
  11. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While I understand that it is trying the diffuse the situation by dispatching the player as quickly as possible, it does lead to some confusion to the other players and the fans as to what happened. It would appear to someone standing on the periphery that the player was cautioned and then committed a send off offense. It is a bit ambiguous. What is the reasoning given by the USSF?
     
  12. gildarkevin

    gildarkevin Member

    Aug 26, 2002
    Washington, DC
    I had a similar situation last season where I gave a player a yellow for a hard foul that I considered unsporting behavior. For some reason, he was angry with the player he had fouled, while I had the card up and he was walking off the field (mandatory 5 minutes "cooling period", team not allowed to substitute) he walked right past his opponent and said: "you're the first guy I'm coming for when I get back on the field".

    Of course, at that point he never got back on the field, as the yellow came down in favor of a red.

    However, in filling out the match report, I decided that because there were no obscenities, I'd give the 2nd yellow for unsporting behavior as well, leading to a red card. In reviewing the USSF policies and procedures, I satisfied myself that, not only was the 2nd offense not a direct red, but that it would have been incorrect to bring the yellow down and then show it again, followed by a red.
     
  13. whipple

    whipple New Member

    May 15, 2001
    Massachusetts
    To me it makes perfect sense, a second cautionable offense is a send-off, so technically there is no reason to display a second yellow. However, showing a yellow and then a red in any cirucmstance is more to avoid confusion, and a good practice when they are not simultaneous and it would not be awkward.

    Before cards there was no signal for booking other than taking the book out of your pocket and recording the players name or number. Only the send-off was signaled by raising your arm and pointing in the direction of Muskogee. There was no differentiation between whether the send off was for a second offense or that particular offense.

    I have always felt that this was a greater deterrent bcause players never knew for certain whether they had been officially cautioned or just warned and futher, there were no bragging rights such as one sees today, particualry in the 15-16 boys games where getting a yellow card is treated as some sort of rite of passage.

    The other thing I liked about it was that even after a second booking I did not have to send the player off because the actual record was not carved in stone until I completed the match report, but I could if needed for match control.
     
  14. pkCrouse

    pkCrouse New Member

    Apr 15, 2002
    Pennsylvania
    Personally I prefer the NFHS procedure whereby you display the red and yellow together (in the same hand) for a 2nd-caution send-off. Absolutely no room for confusion if done properly. Unfortunately that isn't an acceptable mechanic in USSF.
     
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In this situation, though, the player seems to have committed his second cautionable offence after you already showed the first yellow card (that's at least how I'm reading it). In such a case, you actually should show the second yellow card (even if play hasn't been restarted) and then show the red card.
     
  16. gildarkevin

    gildarkevin Member

    Aug 26, 2002
    Washington, DC
    Technically, it was while I was showing the yellow card, as I was walking toward him, reaching for the card and pulling it out, he made a side remark to the opposing player.
     
  17. brichter

    brichter New Member

    Aug 14, 2002
    NorCal

    There is a definite need here to make both the player and the coach know that there were 2 cautions, as some leagues keep track of cautions, and after 3 or 4 during the season, it becomes a mandatory 1 game suspension, in addition to the send off and suspension in that game. This shouls be done after the game, and with ARs present for verification, and noted on the match report. I've had it come up ( U19 girls league, to boot, she was one hardcore defender!).
     
  18. SpeedyGonGoalie

    SpeedyGonGoalie New Member

    Mar 3, 2003
    Bloomington, IN
    Acceptable mechanics?

    I've never had this situation, but if you're going to give three cards to one player at once (two cautions and the resulting red), I would raise the yellow, point to both spots to make it clear to everyone that there were two seperate instances, then the red. Seems to be a pretty good compramise, as you make sure everyone knows exactly what is going on, and it isn't that awkward.
     
  19. SpeedyGonGoalie

    SpeedyGonGoalie New Member

    Mar 3, 2003
    Bloomington, IN
    Ask A Referee's Opinion

    Of ussoccer.com's Ask a referee section, this situation was recently brought up:

    Q: A player commits two consecutive cautionable fouls. When the referee writes up the fouls, does he write up one caution, present the yellow card, write up the second caution, and present the red card; or does he write up the two cautionable offenses, and simply present the red card?

    A: In dealing with this situation during the game, the referee presents each yellow card separately, followed by the red card, jotting down details as he goes. In preparing the match report, the referee writes up each caution separately and then writes up the dismissal.

    So i guess you do show all three cards according to this.
     

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