Pre-match: Can't believe it took this long for this thread, the 2024 Presidential election thread!

Well the only silver lining of Trumpo style fascism will be the many useful idiots finding out they have outlasted their usefulness.

 

I'm sure you'll enjoy the end of the Republic and you don't have long to wait.

 

Not sure why I would suggest laws don't apply to me? But no, I don't think Trump handled Jan 6th well at all. He can and has made claims about what he technically did and didn't do, but at the end of the day he engaged in gamesmanship and it was harmful.

That said, there are other elements to the law/order/crime topic that I described in my last post. I may not like Trump's language on qualified immunity or the Jan 6 conduct, but defunding/abolition/soft sentencing/BLM is even less appealing to me. Democrats aren't, at least not at the moment, offering a platform on this particular topic that is more appealing to me and many others than what Trump is espousing.

I understand that. I'm not MAGA and don't love some of the more out-there elements of his support (ex: folks going to his rallies back in summer with the ear bandages, wearing these hats and flying the MAGA flag everywhere, etc). He's a politician to me, not a celebrity or a sports team.

That said, her lack of popularity can't be entirely dismissed as an issue. Candidates are generally better off when they can relate to and engender support from the masses. For whatever reason, she hasn't shown herself to be especially good at this (people just don't seem to like her, even when juxtaposed with a polarizing Trump) and politicians who struggle in that regard tend to have low ceilings. You don't need to generate a cult of personality to be more popular than she is.

Strong, substantive, well reasoned response here man, can't argue with that logic.

Solid talk, enjoy your weekend.

 

It is unquestionable that Trump is a fanboy of Hitler, based on his admission decades ago he had a copy of Mein Kampf, based on Ivana's comment that he had a book of Hitler's quotes next to his bed, based on recent revelations that he saw good things about Hitler, based on his cousin being a literal Nazi, etc.

Anyone who supports the orange fascist, knowing that he tried to overthrow American democracy, is someone who is actively supporting the collapse of democracy in the USA.

 

Half his family is Jewish and one of the biggest critiques labelled at him from the left is that he is far too supportive of Israel.

But sure, Trump is definitely a Hitler fanboy.

When is this ending scheduled to occur?

 

Well your hero Trump promised Day One and I take him at his word.

 

Sarcasm is not your forte. Dude, you are voting for a criminal. You are MAGA....That stain will stay on you for the rest of your life. I am sure you sleep well at night though.

 

One thing I'll do is I will not bring Trump into this because I feel like sometimes when people ask a question or make a response regarding the two candidates a lot of Harris people say but the other guy.

1) I am a confused as to what she is supposed to say or has to say that she hasn't said. I don't know if you've watched enough of her events because that's the one thing where I'm worried that people are depending on second hand from news Clips or something like that and we already know there's a media slant against her so I'm just really curious as to what you're hoping to hear or see that hasn't happened.

People often ask for a composed answer but also then will shout at the candidate for not seeming authentic. It's really hard for somebody to be composed and lay out at detail plan from their prep while also seeming authentic. Especially when it's not in a debate format and it's in a town hall as there's a bit less structure. Biden was always very authentic but I would never say he was always composed while Obama was always composed but at times like certain bits of authenticity because he was always so composed so I feel like this is an unfair Judgment of her. Because we have somebody like say secretary Pete booty who is very composed in his answers but another poster here says he feels like the company CEO who wants brag about stock prices in the midst of layoffs so it's a real person to person thing.

Oddly enough, I will agree here that the Dems have a much deeper bench than they or I think a lot of people realize it was a bit blocked by the older heads but there's a lot of good young senators and governors to choose from.

2) This are really blame on the Press coverage because things have not been great but if you look at all of the achievements by this president with a narrow margin and the things we've done, it's been really good. But the way to press covers it and the way the American attention span works is people need microwave quickness, inflation down and effect the food prices but we've brought that down, we've brought wages up but it's not talked about. it all becomes a Vibes thing because the media is interviewing a family that had to pay $9 for a gallon of milk. Every success under Trump was wall the wall coverage while it seems like every success under Biden has not been covered. To an extent, I blame the Biden administration because it has become very clear that you have to consistently talk about your success every minute of every day because the Press won't do it and nobody will do it for you.

3. Today Biden is the most Progressive president in history and it's likely that it will continue under Harry so I can see how that might be a problem on certain issues as Social Services, social security the idea of the student loan bailout and things like that. However I always ask people to ask themselves of the things that you do stand for and want to see government do come have you seen it done and would you consider it a roaring success or is it just something that you believe in spite of the data that should be a clear policy.

 

Whose hero?

I don't think anyone here called Trump their hero. Did you see this? Perhaps you could point out where you read it.

 

I guess my question would be what specific threat to law and order do you think Kamala posses?

There's more interesting questions about which party is "better" (that's in itself is hard to define) on crime and how effective things like shifting police funding, or "tough on crime" stances would be, but those seemed better served in local elections, no? If you're concerned about the level of property crime in your city, I'm not sure a President is who you should be looking to.

As far as actual power that a president can bring to law and order in this country, do you not feel Trump is a far bigger threat to undermine law enforcement institutions and treat them as a toy?

Say what you will of Biden, but the man has sat back while 2 Democratic Congressman, The Democratic Mayor of New York, a major Democratic fundraiser, and his own son have been charged/convicted of federal crimes.

 

Ok but @Athlone Trump tanked that bill just so he can run on it. He banked on the Press not caring and you not remembering. So if it is such an issue why is fixing it not a priority? I am black man that was an undocumented immigrant. I have a very different view regarding immigration and I don't believe immigrants are our competition. I see it once again as forcing an artificial battle for an artifical rare commodity. Like Harvard and affirmative action. Or let me tag the bored history buffs to talk about How the railroad workers and those building them would constantly be threatened by the owner to bring in some micks that would work faster at half ther price. We need to break the process that has us fight for scraps not win the battle for scraps. I see only one party moving in that direction.

 

Fair enough, that's definitely a common issue.

First, I do have to push back a bit on the media slant point. The media, as a whole, isn't slanted against Harris. She clearly has had the support of the bulk of major publications and their more prominent figures through the course of her campaign. I see far more favorable reporting on her in the mainstream media than I do of Trump. That makes sense, because there really aren't a lot of conservatives working at a lot of major media institutions these days outside of Fox.

That said, it's not a mystery what she could say. Take the issue of her ties to Biden and how she would differentiate herself. Some of these answers, as I noted above, have been perplexing: she goes on The View (friendly territory), is asked an extremely predictable question on what she would do differently than Joe Biden. Her answer?

"There is not a thing that comes to mind in terms of—and I’ve been a part of most of the decisions that have had impact.”

Why? It almost sounds like she couldn't have even conceived of this question coming. There are so many better answers to give on this point that any reasonable amount of prep should have revealed. She could say, for example, that she's proud of her record with Biden on infrastructure, social spending, etc, but note that she thinks more could be done on raising the minimum wage, abortion, etc, and that in the next 4 years she'll take a more focused approach on these particular issues and disappointed voters can expect to see something a little different from her in those regards.

It's not that hard. And I honestly think there are many other potential Dem candidates who would have easily taken that track in response. But her? "There is not a thing that comes to mind" - almost as if she's never even thought about it before.

This is just one example, but there are so many cases like this that it's just hard to believe tbh.

Very much so. There are several I could have seen myself legitimately considering - Polis, Whitmer, Shapiro, etc. The bench is not totally bare for Dems at all, and it leaves me optimistic that in 2028 (with Trump also finally gone) we'll get a much better match up than we have this election.

I can't fully agree with this line of reasoning because it gives too short thrift to the actual cost of living crisis.

Yes, on paper the economy was fine. Stock market good, jobs reports not bad, etc.

Inflation in 2022 hit the highest rates in 40 years. That's not a small concern. The inflation rate did indeed slow down and is not as high today as it was in 2022, but when the rate spikes that high, the effects are going to be felt because even with a lower rate of inflation, prices are still going up. The affordability crisis is not just a meme, it's a real thing and I don't think Democrats took it seriously enough.

We ended up in a simple have/have not situation. Folks who had a lot of money in the stock market prior to the inflation surge, bought a home at just the right time with low rates (or had one long before) and/or had a job where they could manage some significant wage increases year to year were more likely to do well. Others basically lived in a recession. The 2022 market downturn was one of the 10 largest in US history and we saw a tremendous increase in housing, employment and financial insecurity across the board.

No amount of positive reporting is going to alter the negative impact of that. And the administration didn't handle it well, but not for the reasons you mention, imo. They did cite their success - they insisted it was a great economy, and largely downplayed the concerns people had about affordability. All that did was create more resentment.

This isn't insurmountable, mind you. There was a way to frame this in a way that made voters feel like their concerns on the economy were heard and that there was real hope of better outcomes in another 4 years. But I don't think the Harris campaign has effectively walked that line.

I voted to the left of my ideology in 2020 because I felt at the time the country needed a change of direction moving into the post-Covid era (which I did not think Trump handled especially well), and Biden was the best answer for that.

I am once again confident the county needs a change of direction. This time, I'm not so confident Kamala is in a position to provide that.

 

I think I've mentioned it a few times here re: pro defunding, abolition, etc.

Absolutely, but the federal government is a part of that picture. I'm not going to look exclusively to a president to provide all answers on these issues (local elections matter!), but I'm also not going to support a president who actively takes the opposite of what I would consider the proper stance on each of these issues. I'm against most progressive criminal justice reform - Harris is far more likely to support/push for such reform than Trump, and as the president of the USA, that will have real consequences. There are downstream effects from where a president stands on this issue, regardless of who wins. I prefer to be downstream of Trump on this particular point.

No. I think the stances Harris openly supports do more to undermine those institutions than Trump. That doesn't make Trump good (again, Jan 6/more qualified immunity = not good), but it's clearly beyond where she is, at least for me.

 

Listen, everyone has a fasc-curious phase.

 

Los Tigers used to play post-match concerts after Fire matches. Great band.

 

I need a link for this one. She was a prosecuting attorney, which means she worked with police. Where has she recently come out in favor of defunding?

Off the top of my head, I can think of THREE prominant DEMOCRATIC politicians facing serious DOJ charges (From BIDEN’S DoJ, as Trump always calls it when he’s sniveling about “lawfare” and malicious prosecution). I’m thinking of NYC mayor Adam’s, NJ congress-critter Melendez, and Oakland’s mayor, whose name escapes me. Here’s the thing: these Democrats are being prosecuted BY A DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATION. Furthermore, you will hear NO ONE on the Democratic side calling for other Democrats to go easy. Basically, if these people are guilty (and some Democrats do fall into corruption, because they’re people and we’re all prone to do it, esp. if you’re like Rod Blagojovich), then Democrats believe they should be punished. THAT is how you show respect for those institutions.

If you want “to undermine those institutions, you can do things to make sure that people don’t get punished for crimes. Along these lines, let me remind you that that unethical rodent Rod Blagojevich was pardonned and had his sentence commuted by none other than Donald Trump.

Democrats have respect for these institutions. Trump and his supporters clearly, and demonstrably, do not.

 

This isn't about that bill. The Biden-Harris administration didn't need the bill to make a difference when it comes to illegal immigration. When Biden took office, he unwound most Trump executive actions designed to curb illegal immigration on day 1. We had record border crossings for the first several years of the Biden administration that followed this. It wasn't until this year that the administration introduced executive action that significantly reduced the inflow of illegal migrants. That action could have been taken years before there was any bill for Trump to shut down - it wasn't a profound action or an unknown one. The reason that action was not taken earlier is because the administrations stance on illegal migration is simply to favorable to support consistent action to limit it. They wanted more crossings - stopping them was not the priority for the Biden administration that it was/will be for Trump. There's just an ideological gap on this point between the two sides when it comes to illegal migration.

I don't subscribe to the "battle for scraps" mentality and I have no problem with immigration broadly. Immigration is good, and I'd fully support increasing the number of migrants annually (legal migration should become much easier in this country). My only concern is with illegal migration. I simply do not believe it's good for society to maintain unchecked borders and encourage mass undocumented migration, and I don't support it. One side has a far more permissive, favorable view on mass illegal migration than the other, hence my view re: which candidate has the better stance on this topic.

 

I don’t think a Second Trump term will look anything like Nazi Germany. I think it will more closely resemble Maoist China’s Cultural Revolution.

 

I think it will have a lot of similarities to Russia. Time will tell.


Either way, Athlone is supporting someone who tried to overthrow American democracy. From his comments, I'm guessing he is Jamaican and a practicing Christian, which would explain much of his outlook and his support for the fascist.

 

But the things you pointed seem more like rhetoric you're attributing to a wing of The American Left than actual mainstream Democratic party views, especially during the Biden presidency.

You can fairly accuse some Democrats of talking out of both sides of their mouth on this issue post George Floyd and now when "tough on crime" politicians seem to be more popular, but Kamala's most radical stance on this seems to be a radio interview in 2020 where she argued that we're putting too much money into policing, but there was never a call for "abolishment". The Biden administration since taking office has not spent a ton of political energy on supporting defund movements, nor has Harris done so in her campaign, in fact they seem to both be trying to distance themselves from it.

BLM refused to endorse Harris, and put out a statement condemning The DNC for nominating her and not giving more of a chance for a more anti-police candidate to step in.

There's some pretty straight line things I can point to where I would be worried about Trump undermining our legal institutions, where as even if I grant you Harris being "anti-police" in her heart of heart (which I think is quite an oversimplification) it seems like any actual consequences of that would be pretty indirect