Candidates for the Final

Discussion in 'World Cup 2010: Refereeing' started by uuaww, Jun 27, 2010.

  1. uuaww

    uuaww Member+

    Nov 21, 2007
    New Orleans, LA
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So after many refs have had 2-3 games. Who is in the running for the final? Who would you like to see?
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Now that Uruguay is in the QFs and possibly the SFs, I think Larrionda is out.

    I think the candidates are Archundia, De Bleeckere, and Irmatov. Quite honestly, it may come down to whether or not Brazil or Argentina make the final. I don't see Archundia getting Brazil again, so that would affect his appointment. Same goes for De Bleeckere and Irmatov with Argentina. I realize referees have done the same team twice in a tournament, but it's not standard practice of late.

    Webb might be an outside shot if you see something like a Netherlands v. Portugal final.

    If we ended up with Brazil v. Argentina, I'm honestly not sure who we'd have. Maybe Irmatov. Or maybe Busacca has been kept on the sidelines for just that sort of scenario (or any Final, rather).
     
  3. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI
    What about our Argentine? Assuming his home goes out early.
     
  4. TBR

    TBR Member

    Mar 15, 2007
    DMV
    Club:
    CD Aguila
    Nat'l Team:
    El Salvador
    Are you sure? :eek::p
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've been singing his praises since his first match, but back-to-back Argentinians on a Final might be a bridge too far.

    De Bleeckere has been my favorite for this since last year. I think it's shaping up nicely for him but who knows.
     
  6. hornetbiz

    hornetbiz Member

    Oct 3, 2005
    Boston, MA
    Rosetti is definitely out after the missed offside by his AR. We'll have to see if Webb is still in after his game tomorrow, but I have a feeling that's his last game in the middle for this WC. Irmatov will be an option because there probably won't be a confed issue with him, but how often does someone get the opener and the final???

    My question is why haven't we seen Busacca since his first game? Did someone at FIFA get some pressure from the host nation after he sent off the S. African keeper? Or are they saving him for some late round games?
     
  7. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My power rankings for most likely to get the final.

    1. Archundia
    2. DeBleeckere
    3. Busacca
    4. Webb
    5. Irmatov
     
  8. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    2006 World Cup - Elizondo
    2008 Euros - Rosetti
     
  9. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Why would Rosetti be out? Give him another AR.
     
  10. RobbyRobson

    RobbyRobson Member

    Jun 20, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    send all refs back home, call Collina and ask him to save this world cup.^^:D
     
  11. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Larrionda (Uruguay), Stark (Germany), and Baldassi (Argentina) are out because their teams have reached the Quarterfinals, with Simon (Brazil) and possibly Undiano (Spain), Benquerenca (Portugal), and Amarilla (Paraguay) possibly joining them.

    Hansson, Coubailly, Lannoy, Busacca (I can't think of any other reason why he hasn't gotten another game), and now presumably Rosetti are off the list for blown calls, as should be De Bleeckere (the US goal wrongfully waived off for offsides in the 1st half of the US-Algeria match).

    I would think that the remaining contenders would be Archundia, Irmatov, Kassai (have been very impressed by his work), Nishimura, and Webb.
     
  12. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    Have guys like Nishimura, Kassai, and Irmatov done enough high-profile big-time matches to be ready for a World Cup Final? Perhaps more importantly, does FIFA think so?

    I don't know why, but I have a hard time envisioning any of those guys getting the whistle on the final.
     
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Two things...

    1) At WC06, FIFA scrapped the policy of sending referees home at the QFs just because their own teams had qualified. Marcus Merk was the top example of this. Of course, Germany then reached the semis and he was officially eliminated. But the QFs aren't necessarily the point of no return anymore.

    2) Carlos Amarilla didn't even qualify for the tournament, so he doesn't factor.

    Hansson isn't there as a referee, so he's not part of the discussion. Also, De Bleeckere won't be punished for a marginal decision by his AR. It was likely wrong, but it was very very very close. If they started sending officials packing for marginal offside decisions, we might never be left with a crew for the finals.

    Can't really quibble with this if we are taking the big picture. I'd add De Bleeckere back in (see above) and possibly Busacca if he is following the 2002 curve of Collina (1 first round match, QF, Final). If we don't see Busacca in the QFs, then we can be sure he's done.

    I think the large crew of refs to choose from are Archundia, Irmatov, Nishimura, De Bleeckere, Busacca, Webb and Kassai.

    But appointments would need to fall perfectly for Nishimura, Irmatov or Kassai to get it. And I have a hunch it's not Webb or Busacca, either. I really think it's down to Archundia or De Bleeckere if appointments are "clear." Who qualifies will play a major role in the final decision... would Archundia be given an Argentina match? Would De Bleeckere be given a Holland game? I doubt either would. If we saw Holland v. Argentina, I think that's where the wildcard scenario enters and you look to one of the Asians, or maybe even Kassai.
     
  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Kassai's did the Olympic Final and Irmatov did the CWC Final, I think. Irmatov also has been at the Asian Cup Finals and Kassai did one of the intercontinental WCQs (which is a pretty damn big appointment).

    Other than the shock appointment of Belqola in 1998, any of these guys would be the least experienced referee ever to be given the World Cup Final. Another argument for the Archundia/De Bleeckere path.
     
  15. Cevno

    Cevno Member+

    Aug 27, 2005
    Shifting.
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    By the time the final comes up ,the rate at which the referees are committing howlers FIFA would be really just left with one or two referees who have not committed a big mistake and cost a team unfairly to referee the final. Or maybe even none.

    ....
     
  16. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    I hope Irmitov is given the final, as he has impressed me the most among the referees in this tournament.
     
  17. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Kassai really impressed me. I like DeBleekere as well, but I'm of the opinion that the offside may kill the team. I don't thimk that was marginal at all. He had the top of the goal area to help line that up and everything. It's a personal bias for me, but I don't think you can take the ball of of the net on a marginal decision.
     
  18. hornetbiz

    hornetbiz Member

    Oct 3, 2005
    Boston, MA
    Yogi, they work in crews don't they? It's just like if his AR failed the fitness test then the whole crew would be out...they are graded as a crew and they receive assignments as a crew.
     
  19. CanadaFTW

    CanadaFTW Member

    Jun 21, 2007
    I hope FIFA goes on more than the incredibly results oriented and short term thinking displayed in this thread. Referee's, no matter how good, make mistakes, and punishing the referee based on the outcome of a mistake is terrible (so like a marginal offside that results in a goal is just a marginal offside). A true howler (like the offside in Arg-Mex) maybe, but little errors? I hope not.

    As a question, if it is a European vs South American club, would FIFA stick with not using UEFA or CONMEBOL officials?
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As someone pointed out earlier, Sandor Puhl got the 1994 Final after he missed an elbow in the penalty area of the QFs that resulted in a post-match multi-game ban for the offender (it was kind of like the Dempsey thing that De Bleeckere missed, but much more brutal and off-the-ball even more so). A single error will not kill a crew, especially a well-respected one coming into the tournament.

    But guys like Larrionda and Rosetti have to be done. Larrionda is likely out because of Uruguay advancing. Rosetti's crew just can't be saved, I think. He could have been done regardless (unlikely he'd get a quarter and unlikely he'd get a Final so soon after Collina--so really only a semifinal was an option) but such a public error has to be the nail in his coffin.

    The answer to this is pure speculation either way. The policy is new and I hope it's short-term. European officials did both semifinals in 2002 even though there was one European team in each match. And there is a lot of recent precedent for the finals:

    2002 - Collina of Italy for Brazil v. Germany
    1994 - Puhl of Hungary for Italy v. Brazil
    1986 - Filho of Brazil for Argentina v. West Germany (if a Brazilian can get Argentina in the Final, maybe De Bleeckere could get Holland?)
     
  21. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    All of this analysis based on referees' performances and which teams are advancing etc., is all very well and makes for interesting discussion and speculation. But it does not take into account the most important factor, something I have pointed out in the main referee board a few times previously.
    That is the FIFA Referee's committee make-up. I would expect that if Spain do not get to the Final, then the Final will go to the Spanish referee Mallenco. Why? The chairman of the Referees' committee is from Spain.
    If you look back over the years, this is the over-riding criterion, if not the Chairman, then someone with a big voice, for his country or even Confederation.
    Some examples:
    1974 Jack Taylor (Ken Aston) but also Stanley Rous as FIFA Pres
    1978: Italian referee and Italian chair of committee (I forget both names)
    1982 and 1986: Coelho and Filho with D'Almeida on Committee (Sometimes Chair) but also Havelange as Pres. note also here back-to-back Brazilians.
    1990: Codesal: Arriaga on committee (also father-in-law). Very interesting since the Mexico was banned from WC this year for using over-age players in a youth competition.
    1994: Puhl: Palotai of Hungary on committee.
    1998: Belqola: General Bouzo on committee
    2002: Collina: well he was the best anyway!

    Conclusion:
    Mallenco or Busacca (because of Blatter).

    On a side note, people have questioned the selection of a referee
    from Mali in this WC, especially after his poor showing in the US match.
    Look at the committee and you will see why. (I don't know what the function of those names listed at the bottom is. They don't have Confederation affiliations next to their names. Are they ex-officio in some way?)
     
  22. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    Clearly they have been saving Aguilar for the final. ;-)

    How many matches has Irmatov done so far in the tournament? I like him in the opener. I don't see why that would be a factor counting against him for the final.

    It is all fun to speculate though. There are so many possible scenarios with respect to team match ups which may be big factors.
     
  23. refontherun

    refontherun Member+

    Jul 14, 2005
    Georgia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Despite the call against RSA that was, IMHO questionable, my gut says Busacca.
     
  24. KennyWoo

    KennyWoo Member

    May 21, 2007
    Pasadena, California
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not a ref, so take it for what it's worth, but Nishimura has impressed me in his matches.
     
  25. ThirdTeam

    ThirdTeam New Member

    Nov 15, 2009

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