^ Probably true. But I'm a guy who thinks we probably are better off with teams in different cross-border leagues and the CSA helping ensure the flow of players among leagues. I don't see what a USL/NASL level CPL gets us on the plus side that we can't get with far less risk in cross-border leagues.
I took your comment about "does not seem to be what the original intent of the league is" to mean you don't think the CPL will operate as a junior/affiliated league. My point was that, regardless of the CSA's intent, it will effectively be a junior league. In that case, they may as well be affiliated and, if they're going to be affiliated, why bother to start a new league at all? Perhaps I misread you and we are agreeing.
I think our agreement is more limited than I first read. I think you can have a Canadian First Division that is unaffiliated. It does not mean it will be as high a quality or as "big a league" as MLS (I don't like the word junior simply because in a sporting context it has a hint of an age limitation suggestion)...just as, say, the Scottish Premiership is unaffiliated with the EPL...it is not as big and not as "good" but it is an independant, first division that has no affiliation. We can debate/argue about how successful that would be but to suggest that there is no model without affiliation would (IMO) be wrong. So you seem to be saying it may as well be an affiliated league since it will always be inferior. I am saying, it will likely always be inferior but, so what, that does not mean it has to be affiliated. The one thing we seem to agree on is "if it is affiliated, why bother creating it".
What I'm actually saying is I don't see how a CPL that operates at the USL/NASL level can survive as a stand-alone league. Affiliation with the Canadian MLS teams, thereby getting three of the necessary minimum eight franchises on a stable footing, might give it a chance. An affiliated league is not a "real" league, however. So why bother creating an affiliated CPL when there are cross border leagues available without the risk? I'm not opposed to a Canadian league in concept. I wouldn't even care that it would be below MLS. I spent many evenings in my youth at Centennial Park watching the CSL Blizzard. I just haven't seen anything from the CSA that makes me believe a national level CPL will work. I don't want to see that level of energy squandered when it could be spent on starting new USL and NASL teams with a good chance of surviving. If NASL Edmonton fails, it doesn't take NASL Ottawa with it. (Or NASL Calgary or USL Hamilton or USL Winnipeg if we could get them going.) If CPL Edmonton fails and the CPL drops to too few teams as a result, it takes the whole CPL with it and kills pro soccer expansion in Canada for a generation.
I think the main thing is that we need to wean ourselves off the American teat. We can't get the USMNT to qualify us for the World Cup on our behalf. We can't fully separate ourselves, we still need our MLS element (and to some extent MLS needs us), but we should find some level at which we can operate independently. I think that most will agree that we could do so at the D3 level (and to some extent we are with L1O and PLSQ). Now we're trying to see if we can do it at D2. To honest, if we can't, then we don't deserve to be at the World Cup. Ever.
Why? What we want (in this context) is a supply of players for the NT who are talented enough to get us to the World Cup. What difference does it make it we do this in an all-Canadian league or in cross border leagues? I'm interested in the final result. I'm willing to listen to the case for a CPL if that's what's going to get us the result but so far, in my opinion, the cross border league option seems more likely to succeed.
With great respect, that is silliness. As individuals, we don't raise our own food, sew our own clothes, or make our own medicine. As a nation, we don't grow our own citrus fruit (even though we could invest in heated greenhouses) or launch our satellites ourselves (even though we could massively invest in creating our own NASA to launch the few satellites we need to launch). The end result depends on what trade offs you are willing to make and it is often far better not to try to do it all yourself. There are pros to an all-Canadian league. I don't think they outweigh the cons but I'm open to being convinced. I don't find the argument of "it would be better just because it would be ours" to be compelling is all.
I'm having a hard time explaining my point of view, and I probably couldn't so I won't say much more because we'd just end up in circles. We can't unleash ourselves from America entirely, that's for certain, but I think that our "Can't do" attitude hurts us more than anything. Many will say that we have to be realistic, and that is true, but it's a blurry line between realism and pessimism, hence why there's always disagreement.
I think the main reason for having our own domestic league is that I believe it's a requirement for putting in a World Cup bid. Piggybacking on the Americans this time won't cut it, though that is probably the best way to provide stability for Canadian teams. But the only way I see the CPL surviving is if it is set up as a Single-Entity with a decent long-term TV broadcast contract. An 8-Year Contract starting in 2018 would run through to the 2026 World Cup in Canada, which would be the pot-of-gold at the end of the rainbow.
As an interested outsider, I would like to see the CSA maximize the utility of this competition, the Voyageurs Cup's special place in Canadian soccer (being a supporter's creation), and the three successful Canadian MLS teams by adding at least three teams and making the MLS portion of the tournament start with a round of 8. Giant-killers are the biggest draw of knockout tournaments, and given that the MLS clubs will only start at the round of 8 it will enable them to continue the home and home format, limiting the possibility of upsets (ensuring that Canada will likely have strong representation in the CCL) while enabling multiple cities to be exposed to play against the MLS sides and increase the possibility of upsets. Canadian MLS clubs will then have the impact of participation in their own domestic club competition be roughly the equivalent to the maximum number of games that US-based teams play in the US Open Cup. This build grass-roots support for 2nd and 3rd division Canadian teams who might then be able to garner anywhere from 3 to 10 thousand fans per match, open academies and broaden the base of the Canadian talent pool. More matches and more attention on the competition also means more money for the CSA. Anything less will be a missed opportunity. In addition, other rounds can be added for more lower level teams prior to the round of 8 where MLS teams join in. USL and NASL teams can be tied to the round of 16 and eventually you can make it a goal to expand to a full round of 32 if you can one-day support PDL and even amateur champions in the setup. Just my two cents that I imagine has probably already been thrown out there in a similar manner. Hopefully with this new Canadian Premier League, the Voyageurs Cup can be on it's way to fulfilling it's potential and truly benefiting the development of the sport in Canada. They need to really jump on it, because Canada is continuing to fall behind in CONCACAF. Even if the World Cup expands in a few cycles, they're still behind the likes of Costa Rica, Honduras, Jamaica (at least they would be if they had managed to lure BWP), T&T, Guatemala and Panama.
^If Canada starts its own independant league (ie without particiaption from the 3 MLS clubs) and if CONCACAF maintains only on qualifying spot for Canada, I would suspect the Amway Cup will cease to be the route to the CL for Canadian Clubs....I, somewhat cynically, believe that might be why the MLS clubs are so interested in getting involved....to ensure they have a path to the CL.
I think the MLS clubs are involved with the Canadian Championship for two reasons. First, it gives them two extra home games per year. Attendance often isn't quite what it would be for an MLS match but I estimate it still gives them gross revenue of close to $1 million per game. Second, it is their path to the CCL. They seem to have a bit of a love hate relationship with the CCL at times but it is a popular tournament with Canadian fans and, again, it brings in revenue. If we do get a CPL it would provide a ready made way to expand the Canadian Championship. That would be nice because right now we only have five teams with the skill and finances to play. Even with a CPL, however, I wouldn't see a reason to exclude the MLS teams. They are still Canada-based clubs, after all.
Something of interest: http://www.torontofc.ca/post/2016/09/22/toronto-fc-and-fc-london-announce-partnership
You would not exclude, necessarily, the MLS clubs from the Canadian Cup....but you would (could) allocate the spot in the CL to the winner of the domestic league rather than a cup competition. That would serve as an enticement to the league teams to enter a tournament and get some high(er) profile clubs coming to your town/city to boost revenues. Not sure there are examples of countries having one spot to allocate and giving it to a cup winner rather than a league winner (when both exist). Now if I was an MLS club based in Canada would I play in a Canadian Cup competition that did not have the enticement of a CL spot for the winner....probably not, but that would be their decision to make if the spot was allocated to the league winner rather than the cup winner....but no one would, or should, "exclude" them from competing.
Wales gets one spot in the Champions league and one in Europa. These spots are taken by the winner and runner up of the Welsh Premier League respectively. I don't know if the Welsh based clubs that play in the English system can take the English spots if they finish appropriately in the Premiership or FA Cup. For New Zealand, Wellington Phoenix are technically considered to be Australian since they play in A-League, so New Zealand's representative for OFC Champions league comes their own domestic league. Translating that to us, it would be the equivalent of the CPL taking Canada's spot while making the three MLS clubs eligible to take the US spot allotted for the MLS Supporter's Shield winner. The USSF of course would never agree to this.
I think regardless of the USSF's decision (which is obvious anyway) the CSA would want the best possible team representing Canada, thus making it the Voyageur's champs who go.
Wales gets 1 CL and 3 EL spots - Champion to CL; 2nd and 3rd plus Cup Winner to EL. Welsh clubs in England CAN take english spots - see Swansea in 13/14 Europa League.
The only reason that Canada has a single spot in the CCL is because we don't have a National League. If the CPL gets off the ground, then Canada should be getting at least two CCL slots, same as Honduras and Costa Rica. That's the precedent.
I don't have the link but it has been posted on BS somewhere before. For co-efficients at the CCL Canada is actually ranked quite highly so I don't think that's the driving force. That said, I don't think it is necessarily as easy as saying "we have a new league and a bunch more teams now, so give us more spots". Having a league may have had a bearing when the tournament was organized but I doubt they'd expand to an awkward 33 teams just because Canada "deserves" another spot. It would presumably mean taking a spot from someone else which could get heated.
That is very good. I'm very supportive of the L1O and the goal of regional D3 leagues. (It's also decently fun soccer to watch based on what I've seen at Kingston Clippers games.) Having an obvious pathway for players from L1O to higher leagues is key to getting the most out of L1O. It wouldn't do the NT any good to develop kids strongly up to the L1O level but then just let them stay there.