Canadian Premier league

Discussion in 'Canada' started by mikehurst21, Feb 3, 2016.

  1. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Halifax is in a somewhat unique position of being completely untapped for professional teams tho. They obviously have Junior Hockey, but the Wanderers have no competition in the summer months. That's going to be hard to replicate in most other reasonably side cities in Canada.
     
  2. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The comparison to Europe and Canada is not particularly apt. Soccer is often the only sport in European countries of any real support. You're also talking about areas that have over a century of support for a specific club and that support pre-dates automobile travel. That being said, as long as CPL sticks with its 5k-10k resulting in a successful club, then clubs in Canadian markets can continue to be successful. The hard part is what will happen when clubs like Hamilton and Halifax take off in popularity
     
  3. song219

    song219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 5, 2004
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Vanuatu
    Pro-Rel will solve all problems and all problems to come in the future. :D :p
     
  4. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    Here's a government website with useful population numbers for this discussion:

    https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1710013501

    You will get different opinions on this, of course, but I think there is a sweet spot for the CPL in terms of population. I actually think the largest cities (which have MLS teams anyway) would be very hard sell for the CPL. They are used to the highest level of things and the CPL will tend to get a bit lost.

    Too small and you won't be able to draw big enough crowds no matter what. I think Windsor is as small as you want to go even if you can get a near-optimal stadium situation.

    Of course, it isn't only about population. Halifax works so well in part because of its stadium, because it is isolated, and because the CPL is the only game in town for the summer. Those are factors that can help otherwise undersized cities succeed.
     
  5. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    That would fall under the category of "nice problems to have". First I'd like to see viable attendance across the board.
     
    Yoshou repped this.
  6. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I think CPL and CFL have different demographics. Windsor might like to go see the Tigers in the summer, I'm not sure that prevents CPL from succeeding.

    There aren't that many CFL clubs around (Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Regina, Toronto, Hamilton, Ottawa and Montreal). Ottawa, Winnipeg, Hamilton and Calgary are doing fine while most agree that FC Edmonton's struggle aren't due to the Elks (not directly at least - Clarke Stadium)

    There's plenty of great markets with nothing in the summer such as London, Kitchener-Waterloo, Kelowna, Saskatoon, Quebec or anywhere in Atlantic Canada. I'd even count places within the 3 major areas
     
  7. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    That's the whole purpose of CPL - building a legacy for the next 100 years +. With MLS sticking to 3 clubs only, not much stopping CPL to grow organically and become bigger and bigger over time in those markets. The ultimate goal is the monopoly of the entire pyramid and they'll get there

    Cavalry have plans for a bigger stadium next to the current one when they get to capacity, Halifax is already working on a permanent stadium on Wanderers Grounds. Pacific already announced that they are expanding their stadium to 9k seats plus working on a downtown venue in Victoria to be used for CCL, CanChamp and playoffs games

    Hamilton are unlikely to move as they are filling dates at the stadium. I could see some changes to make it a bit more soccer oriented like adopting the hybrid pitch used by TFC at BMO, same for Ottawa and Winnipeg.
     
  8. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I understand that is the goal, but getting there is much harder now compared to the late 1800s/early 1900s. The presence of the internet and cable TV makes it much harder for local sport teams to compete when you've got a much higher level of competition available on the television/computer.

    I'm not sure how applicable that comparison is as TFC is the operator of their stadium and the Argonauts are just tenants. In Hamilton, Ottawa, and Winnipeg, the CPL team is the date filler. The only way grass goes into those stadiums is if it benefits the CFL tenant and, if NFL is any indication, turf is the preferred surface.
     
  9. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I know partitioning those 3 cities is the long term approach for the league borrowing from the Euro system. There's not really a rush to get in those cities unless you have the right owners with the right stadium project.

    In the meantime, CPL is going for the suburbs of those cities which are growing rapidly
    • Laval and "Couronne Nord" has near 1 million people
    • Fraser Valley is growing fast with Surrey as "its" centre.
    • Mississauga is undeniably a big target for CPL with over 720k (over 1.2 million with Brampton - Peel Region)
    That's a sound approach, the 3 MLS clubs are focused on consolidating within their city and increasing their share of the media attention. (The Insigne signing is a good example). You'll notice that their marketing strategies has not been oriented towards winning potential fans outside their city limits

    CPL is going straight for them while filing the holes elsewhere. It's interesting to see this play out in real time.

    Rivalries sells too and we've even seen the CSA helping in that regards with the way the Canadian Championship brackets are set up. Everyone loves those but other major leagues have not given much opportunities for those to happen in across Canada.
     
  10. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Good thing they don't play at the same time as Europe! Also, people will always enjoy live sports/events. It's up to the clubs and league to make the game day experience worth seeing and paying for. That obviously sunk FC Edmonton while poor marketing made York United struggle. They have the time and willingness to learn from their mistakes and do it right.

    TFC and Argonauts are both owned by MLSE - just like Valour and Forge

    You're not wrong - it will take CPL clubs bringing the type of revenues where making that change makes sense. They aren't there yet but could down the road.
     
  11. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The time isn't what keeps people away, it's the disparity in quality. It happens a lo around the world where a person is a fan of the EPL, but won't support their local team because of the quality disparity. Game day experience is absolutely a factor in overcoming that, but it also means

    They are now, but TFC put in grass before MLSE bought out the majority owners in the Argonauts and moved them to BMO. The entire reason why BMO has grass is because soccer was the only competing interest in the stadium. This isn't exactly transferable, but just having shared ownership is not justification to take on the added cost of a grass/hybrid field. The wish of the CFL team is going to be the overriding decision and it's only going to change if/when the CPL team becomes the dominant team. Grass doesn't attract fans. If the CPL fan is packing the stadium with a turf field, what's the incentive for switching to grass?
     
  12. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Well, no offence but MLS also has such disparity with Europe but they got the game day experience and most of the marketing spot on. That took years. CPL will get there too and there are plenty of Euro fans in Halifax (some of them still speaks Gaelic of all things) and yet, they are nuts for their club. (which isn't even the best in the league)

    They have the right location, marketing, identity, game day experience. Yes people are well aware of the disparity with England but that doesn't stops them from going and there's no evidence that this would be a problem elsewhere.

    If you're implying that having access to MLS is a turn off from following CPL, they are also well aware that it isn't among the best in the world nor in the region. They don't relate to it at all and the 3 MLS clubs have done very poorly at replicating what the Raptors and Jays have done. For over 2/3 of Canadians, there's little to no interest in MLS.

    The grass is there because it was built for soccer exclusively.

    Grass can make a difference on what type of player you will be able to attract. We all remember Drogba refusing to play on turf but it's way too early for the league to think about such things
     
  13. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #4013 Yoshou, Jan 11, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
    No.. BMO started with turf and, for the most part, it was just fine. The reason why TFC installed grass was because they used it as a way to show their STH that they were "serious" about soccer after years of futility on the field. But that is largely immaterial here. We're talking about a situation where a CPL club goes from a 5k average to out performing the CFL team they share the stadium with.

    I highly doubt that is going to be an issue for CPL. The type of players they are going to go after for the foreseeable future are used to playing on turf.
     
  14. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think he was talking about MLS, or the League of Ireland.

    I kid!
     
  15. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    MLS isn't a factor for over 2/3 of Canadians
     
  16. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #4016 Robert Borden, Jan 12, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2022
    Forge made 2 major acquisitions from Pacific FC
    • 23 years old F Terran Campbell & MVP nominee. He has a total of 25G, 8A in 69 games
    • Midfielder Alessandro Hojabrpour & U21 Canadian Player of the Year


    Both had MLS and Europe options but opted to sign with Forge

    Also, Toronto FC are interested in Pacific FC CB Lukas MacNaughton


    Pacific FC has transferred Spanish midfielder Victor Blasco to Honduras-side Vida.

    Marc Dos Santos met with Atletico for the job at Atletico Ottawa.
    https://www.capitalcitysupporters.com//post/marc-dos-santos-was-incredibly-tempted-by-atlético-ottawa-job
    Despite not taking the job, these were his comments on how Madrid are treating the CPL project:
    • "The people from Atlético that I met, they have to worry about Champions League, about Diego Simeone, and yet they are treating this project with so much care and humility," said Dos Santos. "I was incredibly humbled.

      "Their commitment to the club was incredible and that was what got me like 'woah, I might do this'. It's great for Ottawa fans to know just how committed Atlético Ottawa is."

    Early reports says that FC Edmonton Easton Ongaro has signed with Romanian top tier club UTA Arad. The 23 years old is the CPL all tilme goal scorer
     
  17. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
  18. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    Two things:

    1. Pacific appear to be losing a lot of players following their CPL championship year. This is probably to be expected given the prevailing wages in the CPL and is actually a good thing for Canadian soccer overall if players are moving on. Not so good for the team in Victoria, though.

    2. I don't know MacNaughton at all but I'd be happy to see movement from the CPL to the Canadian MLS teams. Certainly TFC is currently understaffed at defence after shipping off most of their defenders following a terrible season for goals allowed. If MacNaughton was going to latch on, this would be the year to do it.
     
  19. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    CB Lukas MacNaughton sold to Toronto FC from Pacific FC
    • $USD 175k + Incentives
    • Pacific gets Luke Singh from TFC on loan for a year
    • 2nd highest transfer fee after Tristan Borges to OH Leuven in Belgium
    • That's year 3 - more of this to come


     
  20. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    From a Canadian player development perspective, I like this. MacNaughton continues his climb up the ranks (U-Sport, L1O, CPL, and now MLS). I don't think even TFC know yet what their squad of defenders will look like come opening day so we'll have to see how MacNaughton fits in.

    Last year Singh showed both that he has promise and that he is not yet ready to start in MLS. I think a year in the CPL will serve him well in his development.

    It's also not a bad thing for the transfer fee to stay in the Canadian system instead of going abroad.
     
  21. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    L1O announces a three tier pro/rel pyramid will be implemented in the 2024 season:



    Considering CPL owns L1O, seems like only a matter of time before it is connected with CPL in some way.
     
  22. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    ^ Some random thoughts:

    I suppose poorly performing teams don't really have a shot at qualifying for the Canadian Championship anyway but this does take even that dream away from half the teams each year.

    Interesting that new L1O teams have to start in League 2 instead of the Championship. It's not that hard to gather together the players for a bottom half L1O team so this seems a bit low. Also...

    ... how long until we see a first team and its reserve team in the same league? Apparently the first time a new team starts with a reserve side already in place. Which wouldn't be difficult to imagine if it was an established club coming to the league.

    If we're going to have pro/rel in Canada, this is probably a good place to test it. It's the only high level league with enough teams to make it feasible. And travel doesn't really change if you get promoted or relegated. (Not like it would if the Premiere Division got promotion to the CPL, for example.)
     
  23. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    It's a strong signal that CPL are indeed serious about pro/rel. The ultimate goal (long term) is for the entire pyramid to be pro/rel and since CSB will hold the monopoly in the game in Canada, it makes it possible to achieve long term.

    You can expect CSB to buy BC League 1 and eventually PLSQ in Quebec. A prairies league is coming and will most likely be acquired as well.

    A true D2 from CSB had a post-2026 potential launch date, which makes sense as clubs who aspire to be high level across those leagues would be good candidates to move up.

    Soccer in Canada will get better and better.
     
  24. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't see that as an issue, tbh. Anyone that is poorly performing enough to get relegated isn't going to qualify for CC. Obviously things are going to be separate

    Starting at the bottom rung of the pyramid is pretty standard. If a team is good enough to move up, they will. For now at least, pro/rel isn't going to have that big of an issue at an organization level. Obviously the quality of teams should be different between each division, but from an organization front, there isn't going to be a functional difference between Premier and L2.

    How likely is it is that an L1O team will have a reserve side, tho? Also, how big of an impact will it be if the reserve team doesn't have a league for as long as the primary club is in L2?

    I'm honestly not sure how good of a test this is going to be? As you note, there isn't going to be a real difference between the divisions and I highly doubt it will have an impact on attendance/revenue for the teams..
     
  25. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    Who actually owns the PLSQ and L1BC?

    Would it be easier for CSB to start its own leagues in the prairies and Atlantic Canada rather than wait for someone else to start them and then try to buy them?
     

Share This Page