I saw in my newspaper that Fox Sports 2 will show HFX Wanderers FC vs. Forge FC tonight at 7:45 P.M., so I came to this topic.
Winnipeg is barely profitable. How can Saskatoon and Regina support a team? They can't. NHL needs corporate dollars and you can't tell me Regina, Saskatoon or QC has a lot of those. It sucks for hockey fans there but it is what it is. Toronto #2 isn't happening because Maple Leafs don't want it to happen. Not only will the team compete for fans, but presuming they build another arena, that will compete for events.
It's a "have" team, more profitable than cities twice their size and owned by the richest man in Canada Regina draws over 30k per CFL game, they are just as craze if not more for hockey. Corporate support doesnt need to be from Saskatchewan when you're talking a cross-border top 4 league. Any Canadian corporations could get involve knowing that attendance wouldnt be an issue even with pricier tickets. It's also a place where people disposable income is very high. As for Québec, Pierre Karl Peladeau is one of Canada's richest with Quebecor media and owning all sort of médias, telecom and their own sport channels. Those 2 can ABSOLUTELY support NHL. The league simply doesn't see any opportunities for further growth hence going south in the desert. The Leafs don't have that kind of power. Bettman already said that there isn't any Leafs territorial rights. If New York can support 3 teams, the world's biggest hockey market can too. (The GTA with 2 Toronto teams and another one somewher in Southern Ontario) It's bot about viability, it's about the league not wanting too
Do you have a link for Winnipeg being a "have"? Forbes's 2019 NHL valuation list has Winnipeg losing ~$8 million and a valuation that are the 5th worst in the league and revenue 6th worst. https://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations/list/#header:position I'm perfectly willing to accept that Forbes is wrong since they don't actually have access to the teams' books.
By being a "have team" is that they didn't need the revenue sharing payment allocated to teams losing lots of money. Their revenue growth is somewhat an issue because rhey have the smaless arena in the league even though they sell out most if not all games. It's a challenge of their own as they'll never be the Habs or Leafs but they prove capable of being competitive regardless. Granted I lost interest in the NHL a while now but i found those stats and article. Even if they lost $8M as you say, they are in way better shape than others in the league. Luckily one of the richest man in the world owns them so they'll be fine https://www.google.com/amp/s/jetswhiteout.com/2018/06/04/winnipeg-jets-long-term-viability/amp/ https://www.statista.com/statistics...istic shows the revenue,in the 2018/19 season.
Bringing it back to the CPL for a moment, this is the sort of thinking where you and I differ. The fact that a team can survive because it has a rich owner does not make a market (NHL, CPL, or othewise) viable. It just means a team can exist there so long as the owner likes his/her shiny toy. Bill Gates could put an EPL team in Whitehorse but that doesn't make it viable. I'd prefer to see teams that can exist on their own so that they, and the league, can survive without owner funding. If a rich owner wants to elevate the team - like how TFC spend all the optional money MLS will allow - that's fine, but that shouldn't be what balances the team's books.
MLS would have folded if it weren't for their owners. Making a team viable shouldn't be only about the owners but they are a vital part of the equation nonetheless. NY is a viable market but bad ownership almost sank the Islanders. You have examples vice versa where you have tiny market where both the public and corporations response makes the venture a resounding success like Halifax. Just saying it isn't as black and white as "how much population" does a market have because examples of successful teams in modest markets are all over Europe, CPL believes this to be achievable in Canada, let's give them the chance to try
We can be more specific. MLS would have folded if it hadn't been for two people who, at one point, owned all but one team in the league. So good they had those owners to float them but they had to make changes and make the teams viable on their own before the league could grow and flourish. As it was they killed two teams, moved one, and later killed another. But they also had the luxury of having large markets to burn. You are correct that it's not just about population. Halifax had more than double the attendance of York last season with a population only a fraction the size. The CPL is also brand new and it's completely logical to have owners use their money to help the teams get established. Below a certain threshold, however, population does very much matter to long term viability. We can't just assume every smaller city we want to add will become the next Saskatchewan Roughriders of the CPL. Likewise, we should never say that a particular city is a viable market because the owner is a billionaire.
In the hockey context only, Saskatchewan, Winnipeg, Quebec City, a second Toronto team and a team in Southern Ontario are viable - tickets even pricier, venues, merchandise sales, sponsorship and corporate support would be there, That's not the issue. The NHL views other US markets as more attractive as an opportunity to get into new markets, gains new fans and grow their TV footprints to help leverage better TV deals. They go to Canada when they don't have a choice which is the only reason why Winnipeg got their team back. The NHL choice of putting teams in the desert or pushing for another team in Texas while keeping teams in empty arenas in Florida where no one cares about hockey is about what I wrote above, it's not about those Canadian cities not being viable. The NHL views Canada as "already conquered hence putting more teams just being "redundant" from their perspective. It's been written to death by virtually every sports medias in Canada and at some point I flat out lost interest. The NHL, a Canadian league in it's inception became an American league relying on the revenues from Canadian clubs and TV contracts to help cities that shouldn't have a club survive...so "meh" It's refreshing having a league actually take a much harder look at markets from a "Canadian perspective - not American perspective" and actually trying to see if they can make it work.
Its kinda already proven their profit margin is pretty thin. Yes, corporate support does need to be from Sasketchewan. No company that's 6 or 7 hours away is going to buy luxury suites in the arena. CFL attendance is completely irrelevant on account that CFL games are only once a week and their ticket prices can;t compare to NHL ticket prices. And it doesn't matter if disposable income is high, there are simply not enough people. He is POOR relative to your average NHL owners. I am not sure New York SHOULD have three teams, Rangers hog most of the fans and other two get the scraps. NHL can't come out and straight up say Leafs are saying no to Hamilton or GTA 2. Come on now, don't be that naive. Its also Sabres too.
Granted, doesn't mean not viable...just means not as attractive as other bigger markets which hasn't always been guaranteed success It's not New York but there are different type of companies, smaller sure but they are there as well. You have lots of companies in energy and resources to name those. At least he makes the list of top Billionaires in Canada. https://www.google.com/amp/s/biv.com/article/2019/11/canadian-billionaires-here-are-41-richest-people-canada-2019?amp Where's Molson? What's preventing him from partnering with others? No NY shouldn't have 3. Ultimately, the Leafs stays as rich 2nd team in Toronto or not. It was really more about Buffalo who can thank Southern Ontario to make them somewhat relevant. A Sputhern Ontario team in Hamilton or even London, would strip the Sabres of lots of attendance. I understand the logic but I don't have to like it, so I stop supporting it. The league assumed the entire province supports the Habs and they are right but I think Québec City are bitter about the whole thing and don't fill the arena when Bettman throw them a preseason game. As long as Bettman is there, I'm out
I don't doubt it but they are too small to afford suites and sponsorships for NHL teams. My guess is his politics. You do realize Bettman works for the owners, right?
How do you know they are too small? Energy and natural ressources are big in Saskatchewan just to name those 2. And no, CFL attendance and corporate support isn't irrelevant to NHL. It shows there's is support on both front, no not like Toronto but like Winnipeg sure. That's an excuse being used to not go to Quebec. Back then when teams were failling and Bettman needed plan Bs and Cs, he was flirting with Quebec and Peladeau. When he didn't need them, now his political affiliation mattered... Yes but he has influence. It's not as straightforward as he's trying to gaslight people. Owners wants to make money but he has the freedom to drive the agenda as long as he's making them money. His southern expansions have been mixed reviews and I'm being polite here. Anyways, let's go back to CPL, I lost NHL a while back anyways.
It's not just Bettman that is against putting teams in small Canadian markets. The NHL rejected a bid to buy the St. Louis Blues in the early 80s because the new ownership group wanted to move the team to Saskatoon. However, most teams in the league felt Saskatoon was not a "viable market." https://nhl.nbcsports.com/2018/07/23/pht-time-machine-when-blues-skipped-nhl-draft/
Leaving Saskatchewan out of it, this study claims that Toronto could have a second team, Quebec and Montreal, but again...never happening as long as Bettman is around https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.1140681 The study found that all Canada's existing major league sports teams are on a sound market footing, and suggests that Toronto could support a second National Hockey League team, along with Quebec City and Hamilton — bringing the Canadian total to 10. Going back to CPL who goes by a different business approach and Canadian perspective, Canada's medium-size markets can absolutely work for the league. Lots of clubs elsewhere in Europe serves markets of similar size than our medium cities
I've been impressed with Julian Dunn-Johnson of Valour at CB. He's still on the books at TFC but hasn't gotten a real sniff in years. The 20 year old has all the physical tools, has looked composed, and played really well with Andrew Jean- Baptitate at CB. I see no reason why he isn't ready to step into the backup CB role at TFC next year over Ciman or Zavaleta. This CPL tournament is invaluable for young players who have stagnated on deep MLS rosters. They can play, and they can surprise, if given half a chance.
Because if they were that rich and willing to sponsor NHL teams those places would have a team by now. This is an argument that keeps coming up and I ask you, do you think owners of these NHL teams are gullible and naive to be so heavily influenced by one man? If they don't like him they will fire him. Everything else I can chalk it up as matter of disagreement but calling Gary Bettman master of manipulation is pretty wild. Southern expansion as a whole has worked, and it didn't even begin under Gary Bettman. Teams like LA Kings and Atlanta Flames came in to the league when he was in high school.
I've been impressed by him so far, too. I think he's a big part of the reason that Winnipeg has flipped from being a terrible defensive team to a good one. I also agree that he would be a great contender to step in to serious CB minutes next year back with TFC. It would fit for him, for TFC salary cap reasons, and for TFC having an easy route to upgrading their defense.
"You're welcome Canada!" - Gale I also believe that he should have a shot at TFC but he won't just like Fraser this year. Hoping that both attracts European interests instead. Dunn potentially adding depth to our NT CB chart is a welcome addition
Fraser started yesterday. The difference with Dunn at TFC is that the team isn't strong in defense. Breaking into their midfield is a harder proposition. On the NT, Dunn would be depth (for now) although the NT isn't super strong with natural defenders either.
I meant in general for Fraser, we all expected him to play much more minutes. Just like they did for Dunn, they should loan him if they don't have serious plans for him. Can't improve and help the national team from the bench
And they are playing great football. They are a few pieces away to get to Forge and Cavalry level and with their connections and expertise, they willmke it happen. Edmonton is a utter disappointment so far. York9 having a slow start like last year will be unforgiving in this format. They're much better than this on paper. Pacific is what you expected Hard to do worse for Valour HFX games later on against Cavalry will give me a clearer picture of who/what they are. They could be a dark horse in all of this