Canadian Premier league

Discussion in 'Canada' started by mikehurst21, Feb 3, 2016.

  1. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Many sources said it was a $5M entrance fee for the inaugural season.

    Sources have said it now doubled to $10M.
     
  2. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    CPL has revealed its awards and trophies
     
  3. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
  4. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    Tangentially related, here is the latest Forbes valuation list for MLS teams:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/chriss...xpansion-fees-sale-prices-surge/#74f4876c51b5

    Montreal is $210 million USD, Vancouver is $215, and TFC is $395.

    I don't expect the CPL to match those kind of numbers but hopefully they can hit a similar trajectory. Some of the things that are driving the MLS valuations (SUM, 2026 World Cup) are also at play in the CPL.
     
  5. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One thing MLS has that CPL likely won't be able to get is the quality of markets. Even if we focus only on the Canadian markets and ignore the US ones, the CPL will struggle to match Vancouver, Montreal, and Toronto as markets. That's going to severely limit the amount of growth that the valuation of a CPL club will have in comparison to that of a Canadian MLS club.
     
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  6. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    The CFL & NHL are proof that this is a myth.

    The prairies are carrying the CFL with strong number from Hamilton. The league's attendance rivals the other major leagues in North America with very strong TV ratings.
    upload_2019-11-4_15-39-0.png

    The NHL teams in the prairies draw just as much as the major North American markets.

    I understand your point on demographics but CPL is going at it very differently than the 3 MLS teams.

    1. The 3 MLS teams have a "metro area market" strategy, however their following is "mostly" within their boundaries unlike NHL/MLB and NBA. Personally, they missed their opportunity to grow their fanbase beyond by being "lazy" on the marketing side.
    2. CPL is going at it in a more "community/city" approach and much more aggressively at opportunities to draw people beyond the city borders.
    What I'm getting at is that this graph is more accurate picture.

    upload_2019-11-4_15-50-55.png

    No, I'm not saying that CPL clubs will surpass the big 3 in status, value or what not. This is just to show that the "potential growth" in comparison to the fee to get in early in this context (MLS inexistent outside their metro area) makes CPL investment very attractive to investors, hence the league having over 20 groups looking to get in, even in a pro/rel scenario.

    However, It's CPL's "burden" to draw people by offering an attractive product to grow it's base. It's doable but it will take time.
     
  7. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I see a couple of errors with your post here.. The big one being that the big difference between MLS and the other big leagues isn't that the are confined within their city limits, its that they are confined within their metro areas. As in, outside a few clubs, you don't see people from outside the MLS markets following the league/clubs like you would in the other leagues. As an example, there aren't a significant number of MLS fans in Calgary, while you're likely to see a number of Blue Jays fans in Calgary.

    Now, even within MLS's markets, their penetration is limited compared to other leagues, but even then, there is more to the valuation of a club than their penetration. It is certainly a factor, but as the Forbes article notes, a lot of MLS's valuation is based on its growth potential and while CPL certainly has growth potential, that growth potential is limited by mostly being locked out of Canada's top markets.

    I'll also of note that there is a reason why Montreal and Vancouver are the third and fourth lowest valuations in MLS. It isn't necessarily that they are Canadian (although, it is likely a factor), it goes back to what you've pointed out previously, their ownership groups are horrible. It's also likely the case that if they were to get a competent ownership group, their valuation would increase quite a bit.
     
  8. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #3383 Robert Borden, Nov 4, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
    That's true for most sports but in the case of the 3 MLS, the fandom out of the 3 cities isn't that strong. Montreal's very niche outside of the island and that's the owner admitting that.

    TFC gets the attendance but that doesn't translate in tv ratings, neither does Vancouver.

    That is true about being locked out of the 3 cities but that's true in reverse as well.

    Laval will hurt the Impact ability to expand north of the island. The AHL Rocket team are proof of Laval willingness to support a team obviously lower in quality than the Canadiens while being so close to them. I can guarantee you that Impact aren't popular outside the Island.

    Langley (Fraser Valley) might hurt the Whitecaps ability to cross the Fraser River (including Surrey which have a similar population to Vancouver) while Pacific puts Vancouver Island out of reach.

    York9 to the north (once they move), Durham to the east, Mississauga, Kitchener-Waterloo and Hamilton to the west... TFC are pretty much completely surrounded but it shouldn't matter that much as their presence was limited. When they had their USL team in Vaughan, they barely got 50 people go to the games...

    That's true. They might end up being the 1st ones to "talk to CPL" down the road. Long term, only TFC has the ownership structure to keep competing in MLS in my opinion.

    Montreal has the money but Bologna is now Joey's baby and has a low appetite for losing money in MLS or even investing...
    Vancouver will be a budget team who lives within it's mean, for better or for worse.
     
  9. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think we're just disagreeing about the reach. ;) I'm saying they have problems getting reach outside of their metro areas, you're saying their reach ends at the city limits. And, honestly, I'm just ignoring Montreal since it isn't even worth mentioning, tbh. Saputo is complete crap and either needs to sell the Impact to someone that will run the team properly, or sell his franchise to another market and move the Impact down to CPL. Not that he'll do well as a CPL owner, but he was effective while in the USL and that should translate into marginal success in CPL.


    Hmmm. I dunno, man. So much of what you're talking about is going to need competent ownership groups and, so far, CPL seems to be missing as much as it is hitting. York9, in particular, have been a train wreck and, honestly, I doubt moving into their "permanent" home is going to fix their issues. They really have the feel of the CPL's first club to go under.


    That's true. They might end up being the 1st ones to "talk to CPL" down the road. Long term, only TFC has the ownership structure to keep competing in MLS in my opinion.

    Montreal never had the money, at least not in MLS. Saputo has tried to run the Impact on a shoestring budget even before he joined the league. What kept him going while he was in the USL was that the Montreal area had a good amount of local talent he could draw from. Unfortunately, that local talent just didn't translate into MLS level talent and, tbh, Saputo hasn't shown much interest in developing it into MLS level talent.

    Vancouver has potential. It seems like they at least try to put out a quality team, they just aren't competent enough to do it. If they ever get to the point where they have a competent GM, they could do well. They also have a fairly long history of strong local support that could be rekindled fairly quickly if the team actually starts to do well.[/quote][/QUOTE]
     
  10. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS is still fairly new and if NYC is typical are doing a poor job of building a fan base outside of the metro areas.

    But MLS has quite a challenge. People in Iowa started following the Cards in the 30s and 40s because it was the only team available to them on the radio.

    When NBA and NFL grew people had the choice of 4 networks on TV, so they had a captive audience.

    NHL on the other hand had to compete with dozens of cable channels as it expanded in the 1990s, while MLS has to fight hundreds of outlets, domestic and international, for any attention whatsoever.
     
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  11. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    NYC is very typical. The Galaxy probably have the largest fanbase outside their market, but that is largely based on consistently having recognizable players on their roster. If they ever stop doing that, I'd imagine their fanbase outside of the LA area would shrink. I'm not sure any other team has a significantly sized fanbase outside their market. Seattle and Atlanta maybe? but that is largely because their local fanbase is quite large.
     
  12. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    The Cubs and Braves had this effect with a later generation via WGN and (W)TBS, respectively.
     
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  13. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    My hope is specifically for the trajectory - a rapid growth in value that will encourage attention, attract owners and sponsors, and grow the fan base.

    You are correct that the CPL markets will not be as large and that the valuations will not be as large in consequence. Realistically, the largest CPL markets are going to be around the size of the smallest MLS markets. I'm comparing places like Calgary and Ottawa to places like Denver and Columbus. Even if the CPL is successful in entering Canadian MLS markets (about which I have serious misgivings) their official goal is to have multiple teams in those areas. As a result, the market for each CPL team would still only be Calgary/Ottawa size. Even if we could get CPL team values in the $20 to $50 million range that would be huge despite being one tenth of MLS.

    Market penetration will be a big issue for the CPL teams in the larger markets. MLS teams have nothing like the reach of NHL teams here. Still, where I live in Kingston, a lot of people in the soccer community wear TFC gear, go to occasional live games, and can intelligently discuss the team. Many of those same soccer people still don't realize the CPL exists. The CPL will have more success penetrating smaller markets like Halifax and Victoria where they are the big team in town (period, not just in soccer).
     
  14. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    I agree. Vancouver is TFC circa 2013. They need to find their Tim Leiweke and Tim Bezbatchenko. With that, and some ownership commitment, they could equal Portland.

    I'm curious if we'll see a CPL equivalent - someone who can navigate player signings in the CPL context to see what others don't and allow a team to stay at the top.
     
  15. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not sure Leiweke and Bezbatchenko saw what other people didn't. Unless you consider they actually made sure TFC was effectively spending the mountain of money they were already spending. If I recall correctly, TFC were one of the big spenders in the DP era from the start, they just spent that money poorly. Leiweke and Bezbatchenko just made sure the money they were spending was on the right players and coaches.

    That being said, Halifax seems to be more in line with the Portland model right now. They are packing in the crowds and it feels like the crowds may end up being agnostic to the performance of the team on the field, so as long as the team does well from time to time, the crowd will stay.

    I like what Calgary and Hamilton are doing on the field and it seems they are doing it in very different ways. I just hope that the CPL doesn't come down on Calgary too hard for their model.
     
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  16. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Halifax have cleaned house a bit. The coach said that some players either priced themselves out of a contract or didn't have good "habits" as professionals (food, sleep, training). There was reports of bad attitude as well. They should play better next year.

    There's been talks about expanding the stadium for next season. Long term, a permanent soccer stadium will happen

    Cavalry are most likely amongst those making the most money in CPL. Their tickets is expensive as hell... more than MLS in some cases, corporate sponsorship is high while owning the stadium.

    They need to lower the prices to see a bump in attendance. Long term, downtown Calgary is the only place they'll reach their full potential

    Edmonton cleaned house as well. They need at a minimum a stadium like Halifax. Clarke Stadium is a turnoff for casuals. Long term, they need to move into a brand new stadium

    Winnipeg have good attendance but they dropped the ball on marketing big time. If they can fix that and improve their performance, it will grow further.

    Hamilton did everything right in my opinion. Their Championship should draw more next year.

    Pacific did a good job taking into account the population where they are and a very attractive stadium. Long term goal should be to move to Victoria, until then I think they are committed to try and make it work in Langford.

    York9 is a head scratcher. I get the perception of the team being a disaster but they actually aren't as bad as it seems except one area. They didn't do any advertising in Toronto or North York. 100% of their marketing was for York Region exclusively. Problem is that the stadium isn't there while York Lions is far from being attractive as of now.

    In terms of corporate revenues, I guarantee you that they aced beyond expectations. Long term, moving to Vaughan in the new entertainment district being planned near Vaughan centre, they'll be fine.

    CPL has some responsibility for how attendance went this year. The season is too compressed and there were too many games being played too close from one another. I'd you have home games every 4 days, people will pick and choose and your Wednesday game will be abysmal.

    The commissioner said that scheduling will be revamped and reduce midweek games. For that, I hope they start beginning of April instead of end of April.

    Exposure was an obvious issue. Lots of people didn't know that this was going on due to the games being on Onesoccer and a few times on CBC. Mediapro said this week that they are expecting to launch a cable channel which would include CPL, National teams, Canadian Championship, CSL and Liga MX. They are expected to add France next year.
     
  17. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I've seen this said before. What exactly is the problem with it?
     
  18. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    The stadium is mainly a football stadium which serves the CFL Eskimos as a training ground and for high schools.

    The city-owned stadium is severely lacking in many things and CPL had told FC Edmonton that the stadium needed to be upgraded to meet the league's requirements.

    The city wouldn't play ball nor cave to high schools and the CFL club who didn't want the stadium converted to a real soccer stadium with FC Edmonton as 1st tenants. CPL commissioner even said that moving might be a better option.

    In the context of Edmonton who has a world class NHL arena, CFL stadium and a rich history in sports, Clarke Stadium screams minor league. That stadium in other places would work but they need what Cavalry has at a minimum. The stadium is holding back the team's potential. Casuals aren't going to games.
     
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  19. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    For comparison, MLS ratings aren't much higher. It's hard to find 2019 ratings but this article from 2017 has some. If I'm Mediapro, getting on cable + more games on CBC is a must!

    https://nationalpost.com/pmn/sports...up-ratings-while-struggling-jays-numbers-drop

    Toronto FC (12-3-8) is currently leading the Eastern Conference and MLS standings. TSN says TFC games on TSN/CTV are averaging 93,000 viewers this year in terms of total audience, compared to 59,000 over the same time period last season.

    The Whitecaps season average is 86,000, compared to 69,000 in 2016.

    The Montreal Impact are averaging 80,000, compared to 73,000 last season.
     
  20. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
  21. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
     
  22. Chastaen

    Chastaen Member+

    Alavés
    Jul 9, 2004
    Winnipeg
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Neither the CFL nor NHL are going up against established teams near their markets that are bigger and better known.
     
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  23. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Outside of the 3 cities, no one cares about MLS. TV viewership certainly proves as much.

    There's no such things as Atlantic Canada supporting Montreal and Manitoba supporting Vancouver. You give them teams and they'll support their own
     
  24. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    They absolutely did this. They also, however, did things like pick up Drew Moor on a free transfer, acquire Steven Beitashour in exchange for a second round draft pick, and bring Tosaint Ricketts home from Europe for free. There were a bunch of moves that weren't necessarily big money signings but that did a lot to back up the big money signings.
     
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  25. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Speaking of Montreal and Joey Saputo, he's willing to pay Zlatan to get him to Bologna. I heard $8M for 18 months.

    Priorities have shifted. He's Italian first after all.
     

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