Can we create a board for the Newbie Know-it-Alls?

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by cyberthoth, Sep 4, 2007.

  1. cyberthoth

    cyberthoth Member

    Nashville SC
    Aug 7, 2000
    Nashville, TN
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've been watching Nats games since the 98 WC Qualifying and have been happy to see the support grow over the years but it's coming with a price.

    Everytime Bradley announces a roster we get this flood of new fans who complain about things they just don't understand. Why Wolff? Not Mastro? Arnaud how can he help? Ect.

    Four years ago...the then newbies wondered why Conrad was being included instead of someone like Marshall. Conrad turned out to play a big role and if you look at past WC qualifying you'll see a lot of names that were over-the-hill or unimpressive...but still played a valuable role in getting us qualified.

    During the 02 qualifiers an aging Ramos scored a goal when we were stuck with injuries while Ritchie Williams played some very important minutes. These were not exactly stars for the future but they helped us get there and somehow there was still enough minutes for young talent like Donovan and Beasley to find their way on the team.

    The same will be true this year...what if Donovan and Ching are injured and Deuce gets a red card. On the road in Guatemala who do you want playing...Wolff or some project like Hill? Would you seriously take Danny Szetella over Mastro if we had to play in Costa Rica?

    Sometimes the old guys provide valuable leadership---look only to an aging Cobi Jones' time wasting in the WC against Mexico. Adu and Jozy will get their time. If Bradley has shown us anything it's that he's not afraid of playing young unproven players. Otherwise how did someone as young as Bradley or as lacking in professional playing time as Feilhaber or as out-of-nowhere Bornstein.

    Does that mean he doesn't deserve criticism for his tactics/line-ups...no. I think he's making a mistake everytime he lines up in "the bucket" with Bradley and Mastro...but let's give him some slack when it comes to call-ups for friendlies. What better team than Brazil to see if Wolff can still be useful. We're not exactly deep at right mid..can Arnaud move back there and be a useful sub? Sometimes these little experiments work sometimes they don't but until we have Brazil's player pool any coach worth his salt is going to have to make some unusual call-ups to find players that can help.
     
  2. Bigrose30

    Bigrose30 Member+

    Sep 11, 2004
    Jersey City, NJ
    This quote should be required reading for all USA Men Forum posters.

    Not to mention his contribution during WC qualifying for WC 2006.

    In the semifinal round (August-November 2004), Cobi Jones created the goal that got us a point in Jamaica, and scored at the death to get us a point in Panama. These were gritty, tough away games. Jamaica is always tough at home, while Panama was overrunning us and deserved to win. Cobi came on as a sub in both games and got the results...if you were the manager, who would you have put in the game there? Some kid who had a good U-20 tournament?

    After the first half of the semifinal round, the table looked like this:

    USA, 1-0-2, 5 points
    Jamaica, 1-1-1, 4 points
    Panama, 1-1-1, 4 points
    El Salvador 1-2-0, 3 points

    Without Cobi, it would have looked like this:

    Jamaica, 2-1-0, 6 points
    Panama, 2-1-0, 6 points
    USA 1-2-0, 3 points
    El Salvador, 1-2-0, 3 points

    Would we have advanced anyway? Almost certainly. As it were, we went on to win our next two games to clinch. However, if you recall, there was very little pressure, as our tough games had already been played. We were able to introduce a few new names into the lineup. Eddie Johnson scored on his debut off the bench against El Salvador, and then followed up with a hattrick against Panama. Oguchi Onyewu debuted during this period. As did Clint Dempsey.

    I'm not sure there's any more compelling evidence that it is an important thing to keep veteran, experienced players in the national team fold.

    I mean, even if they don't contribute, you don't think they'll have anything to offer the young players that come in? Even if it is just advice about what to expect.

    Guys like Mastroeni and Wolff have been around the block. They made key contributions, and they've made key mistakes as well. Pablo broke up attacks and even was booked for a professional foul as we poured players forward against Germany in the quarterfinals of the 2002 WC. Josh Wolff scored the winner and set-up the clincher in a WCQ back in 2001 against Mexico in the freezing cold Columbus night.

    These experiences are part of the continuous process that is a national team. These players are still playing at a high level, and they will be continued to be brought in, both for what they can do on the field, or what they can teach off the field.

    Besides, when the sh*t hits the fan, and we need points in Panama City, whose number do you think Bob going to call?
     
  3. HouseHead78

    HouseHead78 Member+

    Oct 17, 2006
    Austin, TX
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ran out of rep - this is the most levelheaded posting I've seen in awhile here.
     
  4. MLSNHTOWN

    MLSNHTOWN Member+

    Oct 27, 1999
    Houston, TX
    I am by no means a newbie. Regardless, I understand at times where some of them are coming.....

    You bring up two players (wolff/mastro) and discuss their issues.

    IMHO they are two different stories and there is frustration as a result for different reasons.

    1. Mastro - The issue comes from the fact that we expect him to start. We have young up and coming midfielders (Clark, Feilhaber, Bradley, Edu, Szetela, Adu, Klejstan) and we have Mastro our veteran destroyer d-mid. I think we can all agree that Feilhaber looks like he will have one of two central mid positions locked up. So IMHO the best thing for the US to be doing is to see how the other players play with Feilhaber, Beasley/Convey, and Donovan/Dempsey. We have seen Bradley, obviously. We have seen some of Klejstan in the Copa. Clark is the present and Edu is the very near future. It would be better to see Clark and Feilhaber work more together and maybe even Edu if need be. But we get to see Mastro, again. Nothing against Mastro and I think he is going to be a valuable part of our team (our destroyer d-mid we either start when needed or comes off the bench when we have a lead)

    Now granted Zav is replacing Mastro means Mastro isn't going to start. So that is a positive. But if Kerry Zav. gets more than 10 minutes, it is a waste of those minutes, IMHO.

    2. Wolff - Do we need to bring him in to know what he brings? If so, why against Brazil? I know it is a FIFA date so that makes sense, but do we really need to see him again after he was brought into the Sweden camp? IMHO...no. We know he is there and we know what he brings. He isn't the #1 or #2 forward in the pool so if we get bad enough injury/card issues we should bring him in. But why now against Brazil? I guess Altidore is hurt and I guess that Cooper is not ready yet and I guess that Adu is not going to leave his club. I don't know the circumstances here...but that is the frustration. Why Wolff...why not X, Y, Z. The problem is no one knows the circumstances regarding all these players or Bradley's thoughts on them. So we are left with guessing and some people guess wrongly that it is that Bradley prefers Wolff over some of these young pups.

    3. Arnaud - No problem with the experiment, but I don't think he has enough pace to be a right mid. Olsen is playing great and doesn't have international speed. Ralston is Ralston. So I have no problem with seeing what an Arnaud can do since we as a national team have very little other options. Others may and probably will disagree. I just don't think it will work, but hey I could be wrong.

    Ultimately it is just an issue of not so much with why is this guy in ...it is usually I would rather see these other players first. The problem is we are all in the dark regarding roster selections so all we can do is speculate based on the call ups and why other players weren't selected. Maybe Adu said no. Maybe Altidore is hurt and Cooper is as well. Ultimately we don't really know what is going on so we all have to guess a bit.

    Not that this excuses Newbie know it alls....just that at times I understand where they are coming from on some of their opinions.
     
  5. UChicagoSoccer

    UChicagoSoccer New Member

    Mar 6, 2005
    Chicago
    On Maestro (and for that matter Zav), do you see any similarities between the two that might hint at their role on the team? If we want to trot out a U-23 team every time we call up the MNT to "prepare for the future," we will never prepare for the future. Coaching doesn't begin and end with the coach. It comes from the players who have played in those roles before, on the biggest stage. Maestro has almost mentored the D-Mids and now Zav is coming in to fill that role. I was expecting an even bigger flare up when Maestro got replaced by Zav, but fortunately the "he plays for KC" makes enough sense to calm people down. But the reality is, you need veterans not only for the short-term games, but to help lead the younger players by example - both on an off the field - to help the younger guys know what's needed to play in the bigger games. Clark had the entire summer to play for the MNT, now it's time to rotate back to Bradley.
     
  6. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    I don't understand how calling up Tab Ramos when everyone is injured in a world cup qualifier is the same as not calling up Clark for a friendly against Brazil?
     
  7. Tonerl

    Tonerl Member+

    Arsenal
    May 10, 2006
    Cincinnati, OH
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sweet. More moral high ground from the grand old men of the forum.
     
  8. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My general comment with MLSTOWN's post is that while it's OK to be frustrated, one ought to try and control one's emotion and post semi-intelligent stuff. Though I do think it's unfair to blame "newbies" for this nonsense, as not everyone who does this type of posting is a "newby".

    There is no real mystery here. Altidore was hurt last week, that is fact. Cooper still isn't ready to play, that is known fact. It would be stupid to include any at-best semi-fit players for this game (see Beckham, David).

    As to Adu, we don't know whether his club wants him to stay or go or how he feels. But what we do know is that:

    1. Adu's only real success has been at the age-group level, which is a poor indicator of success with the USMNT. His club performances in both MLS and, so far in limited opportunities for Benfica, have been below what one would expect of a national team player.

    2. Adu has only been at Benefica for a few months and has a new coach in the last couple of weeks.

    Only ratinonale conclusion: There is no percentage in Adu unsettling himself to fly over the ocean to participate in this camp.
     
  9. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    did not stop Bobby Convey from being capped... and I can guarantee you Benfica is not holding anything official over this week... maybe Adu wants to work out with Rui Costa (they have a good relationship now) or something... but officially, nothing was holding Adu back from being called up
     
  10. TheLostUniversity

    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Feb 4, 2007
    Greater Boston
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In this thread you seem to be singing to the choir, so please forgive me if I choose a dissonant point or two [or three].
    First, you seem to be thinking that one who is relatively new to BS is one who is relatively new to the game, or to the USMNT, or to some important X factor which is requisite for the proper understanding of soccer. Whereas, apparently, having been hanging around here for some years is the mark of wit and wisdom. Now that, logically, doesn't hang together. And, empirically, the evidence is?? No, the mere fact that a 'newbie" isn't gobsmacked impressed by trotting out Arnaud and Wolff in a FRIENDLY which begs for testing new players doesn't qualify as evidence, not even close.
    Second, so in your hypothetical situation you give us a choice between Wolff and Hill for that qualifier? Mastro or Szetela? Why not just ask us if we would replace young Racquel Welch with Lindsey Lohan? :D . So, what is wrong with Twellman or a [healthy] Cooper or a [rejuvenated] Conor Casey or a ever better Jozy Altidore for Mr. Ching? How about Rico Clark, or Stuart Holden, or a Beckermann, for Mastro?? One might think that "Old BS" is about putting up false dichotomies as substitute for an argument, but that would be extrapolating from a small sample and we "newbies" are not yet fully comfortable in invoking the statical legerdemain of Ye Olde Hands.
    Third, yes, in qualifying, even beyond, certain "old guys" can do wonders in bringing calm and backbone to a team struggling through a hard phase. For those situations, which occur occasionally but not frequently, it's nice to have a corpus of reliable and experienced guns on standby. And we need friendlies against Brazil, or friendlies at all, to bring in these old pros?????? And Arnaud and Wolff are BBs choice of such???? There are questions here, guy, many questions [as implied by the rhetorical device of laying out a string of question marks].
    Fourth, how does Conrad fit in with your thesis? I don't know what BS was saying about him before the WC, but we who were crying for new blood in the team before 2006, and carried the flag for Jimmy, found resistance came mostly from an old guard of USMNT minded seers who claimed that only those "who didn't understand the game" would want MLS trash like Conrad or Twellman or Dempsey messing up the fine vessel SS Arena. Conrad was NEW BLOOD then, and now that we are asking for the testing of new blood in these friendlies you offer Conrad as an example of the virtues of sticking with OLD BLOOD? :rolleyes:
    Finally, I've nothing against letting Wolff, for example, having one last chance at showing how he can be useful. I do have something against it being this Brazil friendly in Chicago when friendlies in Europe, such as that against Switzerland, would have been appropriate. I certainly do have something against using this match for such a chance when we have players such as Altidore, Parkhurst, Rico Clark and Stuart Holden completely ignored. This exacerbated by seeing Hill, Davies, Zizzo all given their intro to the USMNT before the far more worthy Jozy and Adu. In the end it is who BB seems to be shutting out, more than who he is letting in, which is unsettling.
    Ok, sorry for having interrupted the mutual rep society of the BS Old Guard. Time for me to return to the Newbie Citadel of Invincible Ignorance :cool:
     
  11. Adam Zebrowski

    Adam Zebrowski New Member

    May 28, 1999
    adu is a special case, as few young americans have gone to a big club, donovan being the only other kid...

    i see adu as olympic guy before full squad guy anyway, so let him to that...

    same story for altidore...

    let them grow up....

    newbies tend to be kids, who are generally clueless and impettous, let them grow up too...

    the more youth you have, despite the level of its talent, the more errors and mistakes they make...

    let adu learn at benfcia, and altidore learn in europe next year...

    by 2010 they will be in the final 23...

    rushing them, perhaps NOT
     
  12. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    no one is rushing the kids... but if they are ready to play with the big boys, let them play... makes no sense to let them play on a level they're better than...
     
  13. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nothing but common sense -- regardless of whether Benefica is doing anything "official" (whatever that means), those players not on international duty will be practicing in front of the coach, which is what Adu needs. In a couple of months, if nothing has changed, then I suspect Adu will come in for games like this as there is nothing to lose.

    But at this very early stage in his career with Benfica, it would make little sense to have him fly across the ocean for a friendly. Let the kid settle for a couple of months, Benefica is challenging enough without the distractions.

    P.S. -- the Convey situation was a while ago, but I don't think that Convey was called away from Reading in the first couple of months he was there.
     
  14. Bigrose30

    Bigrose30 Member+

    Sep 11, 2004
    Jersey City, NJ
    For the last, Rico Clark was left off because the Dynamo allowed the NT to have him for two consecutive federation tournaments. Their reward was to keep him for the playoff crunch instead of playing in a friendly.
     
  15. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    1. By definition, virtually all BS posters are know-it-alls. Occasional pronouncements to the contrary are tactical, i.e. deliberately misleading.

    2. As far as I can tell, I am the lone exception - I am not a know-it-all.

    3. It's Szetela, I believe, with one l.

    4. Wouldn't it be more productive if we went endlessly and fruitlessly round and round on a more concrete topic?

    5. First page!
     
  16. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    except the coach, Camacho, said himself he will be scouting national teams over the international break looking for players to potentially sign... when international breaks happen, nothing goes on during the club front...

    I used Clark as an example... but what about a guy like Kyle Bekerman? or not calling in Arturo Alvarez? etc...
     
  17. Adam Zebrowski

    Adam Zebrowski New Member

    May 28, 1999
    i think letting adu and altidore do u-23, helps them for 2010...
     
  18. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    Are you Wayne Rooney?
     
  19. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    and I disagree if they are ready to play for the national team...
     
  20. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I doubt very much whether "nothing" happens over international breaks. In any event, a transatlantic trip isn't worth the disruption this early in Adu's career at Benefica. At this early stage of his career with Benefica, Adu needs to eat, sleep and drink Benefica. Even it is only a symbolic committment, which I doubt, it would outweigh any benefits from going to this camp and getting a few minutes in a friendly.

    Well Beckerman played in the winter friendlies and while he is a good player, my opinion is he is not as good as Bradley, Mastro, Feilhaber and Clark. Alvarez, what's the issue ....

    Anyway, Bradley, rightly or wrongly, is sensitive to club concerns. With respect to MLS clubs, he is only taking players that are indispensable to him or that are available.
     
  21. izha

    izha Member

    May 24, 2002
    So, is everybody sure that no miracle recovery for Altidore before Chivas game?
     
  22. izha

    izha Member

    May 24, 2002
    Probably that's exactly why he is the coach and Klinsmann isn't. And that's wrong.
     
  23. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    Instead of a board for Newbie Know-It-Alls, I would prefer a special section where only the Grand Poobahs would be allowed to opine. The rest of Big Soccer could read our great wisdom but not mix in and pollute it. My inspiration comes mainly from the Phisopher-Kings of Plato's Republic (see quote below). Our job would be to shine light into the shadowy caves of the world of soccer.

    And when they are fifty years old, those who have lasted the whole course and are in every way best at everything, both in practice and in theory, must at last be led to the final goal, and must be compelled to lift up the mouth of their psyches towards that which provides light for everything, the good itself. And taking it as their model, they must put in good order both the polis and themselves for the remainder of their lives, taking turns with the others

    Instead of a fifty year age requirement, we can require at least a five year time period on BigSoccer. But to be a Philosopher-King requires much more than the attainment of a certain age. There should be a rigorous course of training. Moreover, candidates for this ultimate responsibility must show great wisdom and insight throughout their posting careers.
     
  24. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    which goes back to what I was saying about unofficial stuff maybe happening... and why is this not the point with Feilhaber who has been at Derby as long as Adu... if Adu is training with Rui Costa, that is one thing... if he training on his own, I do not see the problem with him coming in and playing a little... especially since the break is over a week long...
    I was pointing out players to bring... Alvarez is a guy who is very talented and has looked good in MLS, y not him over a Convey (who is coming back from injury) as a wide player to break in, over a guy who may not even be ready to play...
     
  25. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia

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