Can Christianity Be Proven?

In my religion, we're not stupid enough to sacrifice virgins! They fetch the best prices.

 

I, for one, respect the Bible. Hey, it was written by people just like me - Hebrew atheists!
It's definitely one of the most fascinating works of literature in the history of human race, even allowing for the centuries of corrections, editions and inacurate translations.
But, studying the Bible for what it is (a work of literature with characters, storylines and philosophical points it attempts to drive home) I have a rather strange view of its central fictional character, God.

From the Old Testament it appears that the Big Cheese was quite an active dude in the olden times. Always out and about, correcting sin, smiting this, flooding that, pillars of salt left and right.
Bad city full of sin? To the fire with you!
People forgetting His word? Flood your arses!
A man masturbating? Be damned, heathen!
Yo, everyone, lookie here, a burning bush!!! I am a burning bush! Cool, eh? Let's see Ra do that!
Egyptians not doing his bidding? Let's look in our Li'l Bastard Book of Pranks... hm... wow, frogs! Radical!
Moses said something under his breath? No Land of Milk and Honey for you, Mr. Poopy Pants!
Won't you play a game with me? I made my own rules and it will be the funnest game ever. Rule one: you worship me now... Rule two: thou shalt not do this and that.

Now, if any of you have kids, you will recognize the behavior instantly. Not only is God behaving like a mischievous rug rat, he appears to have a severe inferiority complex. Of course, look at all the other big kids in the neighborhood, your Osiris, your Zeus, your Bacchus and what not. Always out doing exciting stuff, laying women in the form of a golden rain, fathering heroes, drinking, fighting and having all kinds of fun.
The Hebrew God appears to be severely disgruntled about this setup and is taking his frustrations out on his toys (the Jews, generally, though some Egyptinas and an occasional Philistine will sometimes suffer the wrath).

What happens next? Well, read the New Testament. It's a classical case. God grows older, knocks up his first girl, becomes a hippie pacifist, renounses, like, hate and stuff, man, learns how to get drunk on water, stages his own death and... disappears.

Nothing heard from him for two thousand years! Not a stinking pillar of salt, no global flooding, no spontaneous combustion of shrubbery. Maybe a postcard once in a while, in the form of a tortilla in Mexico, but that's it!

Looks like the boy is out on his own. Maybe He is travelling with a rock band somewhere in an alternate universe. Or got a real job, dare we hope?
But do we need to keep worshipping a teenager? Can we relax now? Maybe put some excersise equipment in his room? He is obviously ready for life without us. When will we be ready to let Him go?

Anyway, that's just my take on this. Does anyone else in the book club agree?

 

You are a lawyer...

You accept the concept that the testimony of witnesses can provide proof of something beyond a reasonable doubt.

You recognize that circumstancial evidence can also by used to provide proof of something beyond a reasonable doubt.

You accept that truth....and I assume you accept that by reason and logic...

All of Jesus Christ's Disciples, and thousand of other Christians, were executed for their "faith". Peter was crucified upside down. Paul was beheaded. Nero executed his wife for converting to Christianity. Christians were fed to the lions. All only needed to renounce their faith. They choose not too. They all beared witness until death for the truth.

Riddle me this! Why would they all die for a lie?

 

I could fix this post to include the Branch Davidians or any number of Mormons that died during thier trek westward while escaping persacution.

 

Yes you could...and I could give you plenty of additional examples...

There are two sides to every story. Satan is very involved in promoting his!

 

Well said. I couldn't have put it better myself.

For me, the core message is where it's at. I'm more concened with spritituality and morality (and learning from great teachers like JC or Buddha), not faith, mythology, religious practice or religious beliefs.

Great thread/conversation by the way - plenty of intelligence and humor in the posts, and little "you're going to hell if you don't believe as I do" or "you're an ignorant fool" type rants.

 

Yeah, but right now he's busy campaigning to become UN Secretary General

 

I thought Cheney hated the U.N.?

 

You are all ignorant fools. Except the few of you who follow my religion.

 

OK. I'll accept the fact my internet analogy is not the best example. It was only the best thing my sunshine addled brain could come up with at the time.

My point was that I don't know all the INNER workings of the internet but I accept the fact they are there because the work for ME. To the aborigine in Australia the very concept is still unfathomable. Maybe that is more to the point. I hope you get the idea.

No I CAN accept the reasoning behind the choice because I accept that the sacrifice was made. That is the only thing I need to accept.

But here is a key thing, and I hope none here are offended by the statement I am about to make:
Many people seem to spend their time trying to discredit the value of the good that such belief brings to the individual by looking for something that can be proven and if they don't find it, then the entire story is not to be believed. I would suggest a far more valuable pursuit would be to look at the good and accept the fact that there must be a reason for it.

It is almost as though the non-believers are so concerned with the fact they may have to face some consequences they don't like, that they are compelled to discredit the entire idea in order to live with their guilt.

That may not be the most eloquent way to put it but I hope it gets the idea across.

 

OK. So examples are not my strong point.

The fact that the resurrection only happened in the Bible is not a problem. That is the only place that is important. And as you say, you can believe it or not. To me, it illlustrates the point that doubts are a part of the human condition. No problem there. We all have experienced that in a multitude of ways in our daily lives. We EXPECT skepticism from people who have seen or touched something. It is our nature. The story of Christ is not about OUR nature but of a higher one.

I am not a believer in faith healing as you see it on TV. But the example I cited did not involve any medical practice. The condition "corrected" itself with NO medical intervention at all. The prior diagnosis was confirmed by multiple tests and the subsequent results were obvious. Now you and I can debate the validity of the test/example and I have no problem with a differing point of view because accepting MY example is not important to me. The message is important, not my example.

 

That's a start.

I'm a corporate lawyer, but sure, lets go with this.

Actually, no, I don't. A case of all circumstantial evidence is enough for without a reasonable doubt? Only in the trial of a black man in Alabama, or a Jew in Torquemada's dungeon.

What's the "truth"? However, I'm not going to bother arguing that with you.

That does sound bad, yes. Of course, if you study the early church, you start to see a "death wish" among many of the martyrs, who felt that dying for one's faith was the best way of proving it.

No he didn't. Octavia most certainly did NOT convert to Christianity. This is why we can't have a real argument; you're using Quo Vadis as historical sources.

Because they didn't think it was a lie. Duh. What a stupid question.
There was a Jewish would be messiah in the 17th century, iirc, who actually chose to convert to Islam rather than die. Oddly enough, that didn't stop his followers!
The strength of one's convictions has no bearing on the accuracy of those convictions. None. I cannot overstate that. Jews were killed for not renouncing their faith. Does that prove Yahweh's the one true god?

Btw, I don't think you want to go down this road with me. You've repeatedly failed to answer my questions. I'll ask it again. In your opinion, by your reading of the bible, without any implied judgement, would Mohatma Gandhi be in hell. Again, this does not require you to pass judgemento n Gandhi, merely to interpret what you consider to be the word of God.

 

I just read someone who makes a similar point in a rather different context:

there will be some difficult times. People will be self-centered and avaricious, boastful, arrogant and rude, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious, heartless and intractable; they will be slanderers, profligates, savages and enemies of everything that is good; they will be treacherous and reckless and demented by pride, preferring their own pleasure to God. They will keep up the outward appearance of religion but will have rejected the inner power of it....

That there be Paul's 2nd Letter to Timothy, 3:1-5. Fairly accurate depiction of our time, I think.

And pretty much most of human history as well.

 

~The Book of Stewart, 1:7

 

Weird, this guy came up in a conversation I had this morning in our friendly neighborhood coffeehouse, and neither the owner nor I could think of his name.... do you have it handy, since it doesn't seem to be in any book I have around the house?

 

So you would encourage me to believe things despite the lack of any proof? I'm sorry, I'm still not voting Republican.
However, I in no way begrudge you your faith.

Guilt? I have no guilt about my stance. The point again, is this. I am not trying to disprove religion. I have no need to do so. Its not that important to me. So long as you keep your religion away from my government, which is historically a horrific mix, I don't care if you really do worship Astarte. Or even Baal. (Just don't use my kids for your fire pits.)
My point is that religion cannot be proven. IT CANNOT. It requires a leap of faith that is inconsistent with the idea of proof. If you are willing to make the leap of faith that Christ is your savior - great. I don't care. I cannot make that leap, as I do not believe it to be true. I simply don't think Christ is God, or divine. However, in general logic, the default option is set on "suspicion". In other words, until you show me proof, why should I believe it? I've seen no proof that Christianity is true. Does that mean there isn't any? No. But until I see some, I have no reason to start believing in Jesus.

P.S. If you could take some time out to talk to USAsoccer about his "religion" and tell him to calm down, we'd all really appreciate it here. After beating my brains in against him, you're a pleasure to converse with, even if I disagree with you. And you haven't threatened to fight me, which was a bit unchristian of him.

 

Shabattai Zvi.

Here's an article.

 

Nice,
excuse me for jumping in here. USA you can certainly add yours as well.

In answer to your question on Gandhi;
during the time between his resurrection and his ascension back to heaven, Christ was discussing heaven with his disciples. One of them asked who would be in heaven. A part of Christ's answer was that there would be those in heaven "not of our flock." Biblical scholars and translators have interpreted that statement and related ones to mean that it was not critical that every single person would have been exposed to, and accepted all, of the aspects of the faith. However, Christ did go on to say that accepting His atonement for the sins of the world was the one thing that all would be called to accept for without that acceptance, there is no atonement for sin.

USA, you can take it from there. Pardon the intrusion. You can probably do it more eloquently than I.

 

Cut and dry.

1. Man is a sinner, falling far short of God's mark.

Romans 3
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 3
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

John says If you say you have no sin, you're a liar and the truth is not in you. James says if you keep the whole law yet offend in one point you are guilty of all.

2. There is a penalty for sin - HELL

Romans 6
23 For the wages of sin is death;

Wait. Everybody dies. This is talking about the second death.

Rev 20
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So to recap. We're all sinners and the penalty we deserve is hell. We're flawed, we're totally depraved. We need to be burned.

3. Jesus paid the penalty on the cross.

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Isaiah 53
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

John 3:16 has been quoted several times in this thread. God sent his only son to be the propitiation for our sins.

4. All you have to do is . . .

Romans 10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

In response to the title thread, Christianity is logical and can be proved. But you still need to take the step of faith.

 

In other words, only if you accept an unprovable premise as true, is Christianity logical.
I have no quarrel with that statement.

 

I'm not sure I'm clear. Are you suggesting that it is possible that Gandhi is in heaven, and thus it is not absolutely necessary to believe in Jesus as your personal savior to go to heaven?

Ha! That's rather unlikely.

 

Thank you for your kind words.

However, contrary to what some people believe, you do NOT have to be a Republican in order to believe in God. However, my mother-in-law seems to think it helps.

So I risked offending some with my observation about a few people who seem set on discrediting religion to sooth a guilty conscience. Sorry. Didn't mean it to be taken personally. But when I see some people behaving badly in ways that are so disrespectful and hurtful to others that it is just incredible they could not see the damage they cause, and then turn around and attack the faith of others, it just makes me suspicious of their motive. For those who are living a respectful life but choose not to believe in God, that is fine with me. And, I would submit, it is a reflection of choice God has given us all.

If there is ever to be "proof" of Christianity, it would be the fact that God has the power to strike us all dead in a heartbeat for our transgressions, but chose instead to make this awesome gift of his Son and still give us the CHOICE to accept it or reject it. How many of us, as parents, or company directors, or what-have-you, with the ultimate power over those under us, would sit back as patiently and allow bad behaviour and wait for the ultimate consequences to unfold? I certainly find it impossible even after 22 years of being a parent. That to me, is the proof.

 

I honestly don't know the Gandhi answer. That is one for God to decide. But in my human peabrain, I find it hard to believe a man who did so much good in his life would be excluded. But then that is my human form speaking.