There is no risk in abandoning a failed system. The risk is in hanging on to failed system for too long. If you are teh first to abandon a youth system that everyone else hangs on to, you win. Nobody in football, however, sees the current youth development structure as a failed system. The facts say it is succeeding. A lot of professional players are being produced. The top teams employ people who are responsible for the constant tweaking you suggest, and the tweaking has been constant through the years. I'm sure it will continue. As for not entering the youth system at all versus entering it, certainly the road less travelled. And while that can make all the difference, it can also mean it's a bad road. There are numerous examples of success by avoinding the better youth systems, there are many examples of success by joining them, as well. IM reading of your argument, a basic mistake you're making is assuming youth systems must create diamonds. That is not their job. They create professional footballers (at the top of their game they do). Diamonds are created by the gods, and polished in youth devo levels.
It is not an absolute failure, it does produce some people, it merely under-performs. Hence, it's not absolute, we must ditch this, it's relative cost-benefit, and fairly often the costs and risks in the short term outweigh the potential value down the road. Especially when the "fixes" are not necessarily cheap and involve confronting such things as the tradition of only having first teams in English league football, the status quo, in even limited value, has some value and less risk and expense, and thus perpetuates itself. And I don't think that bursts of young players like Man U had with Beckham, Giggs, the Nevilles, etc in the 90s happen on accident. One player, I buy, that's luck. A bunch, and that means someone was doing a good job either recruiting or teaching or something. Whether it's diamond-making or diamond-polishing or just diamond-finding, I do think the efficiency with which a system works, matters. I think Mourinho and Fergie can be taken to say that the system doesn't properly make or polish the diamonds, least not as good as it could. And since bringing player x up through the system may be cheaper than buying him on the market, I don't think the coaches are idly issuing gripes about their reserve/youth systems. And, I think it's more random than you suggest and the diamonds surprise people and it all works out more "obviously" in retrospect. Couple years ago Adu was going to set the world on fire. Now, god knows what he'll amount to. Some lesser name may turn out to be the star.
You need to be much more specific. Name clubs and actual situation where these types of talents would start. If you can't, then you've just admitted to a fatal flaw in your (already weak argument)- no one knows where these 'positions' are located! (and therefore its as good as if they didn't exist) Ok- fess up. Name those clubs/leagues now! Otherwise, you are just arguing aabstractly and your argument has no value.
Are you on debate team or soccer team? You seem more concerned with rolling out debate tactics than talking soccer. I'm not going to dignify the subjective, loaded phraseology the post uses, "fatal", "weak", etc., other than to refer people to Mourinho's quote ripping on the reserves as a choice for a young player. In soccer terms, that pretty much resolves the argument. One can try and play debate team games, but I played soccer and I prefer soccer arguments to debate tactics. Something either works in soccer or not. Mourinho says not. QED. I shan't bother hunting down teams and situations because this whole line of argument is a sham, a debate tactic. You create some semi-fake situation and then demand I prove facts up. You don't bother proving them yourself. If I balk at what I consider a BS exercise (I could go through and just make up possibilities just like the advocates were making up destinations), then you claim I don't know what I'm talking about. It's a debate game, it's not a soccer discussion exercise. If I wanted to, I am sure I could name endless places where one can play soccer and where a quality college-level American could go and get plenty of PT. Anyone on here could come up with some. I just don't want to be bothered because this is a "game" for you and not sincere discussion. I'll indulge only when I see people are sincere.
Your entire argument is fake! You refuse to list real situations and real clubs. Forget Real Madrid for now. Name some other clubs and situations. Just 3 to 5. That should be easy enough. Where are these superior situations that you keep claiming. You either can't, and you know it would expose your argument. Thus, the previous expose' (above). (BTW, you make a humungous assumption that just because a player wants to go to Real Madrid, that they would actually take them. Sure, its just that easy! And I'm sure Real can take the thousand of kids around the world who would be better off with them, then playing in reserve sides Poor Jose' might be disappointed to find out that unless his son is in the upper 1% of 1% of talented European kids, Real Madrid is not going to give his kid a sniff, nor give a damn that his last name is Mourinho (sp)
Where's the soccer talk in here, again? This is debate posturing and gamesmanship posing as analysis. I don't even know where you get the "but they might not want you at Madrid" stuff from. It seems like another "Davies"-type gambit, created out of thin air. I think the extent of my Madrid mentions recently was to say that I was familiar with Real B and those sorts of teams, and thus anyone arguing I didn't know how "Spain works" was wrong. And if you're familiar with my line of argument in this thread, you'd know I've argued anything but that it would be ideal for everyone to find the biggest team they can and apprentice themselves. You're the one on the side saying "go big". In saying, "they might not want you" you are actually tending to prove one of my points: that even a great reserve showing might not get you a first team spot, that the big time squads are practically flooded with players. Thanks for coming around to my side, I guess....
See I didn't know you were actually a collegiate back. I mean, had I known you had that rare and glorified eperience, then I would have defered to your judgement, because certainly no one around here has ever started in the defence for an actual college! Jez, I'm one of the worst players I know, and even I actually started for a college in the back once. You keep saying how bad Spector is, which only supports the argument that he was better off going to Man U reserves. Do you really think, considering how bad he is, he would have made the jump to EPL from Dallas or Oldham? Silly stuff this, but you get points for most words used in the pursuit of nothing.
Indeed, I'm trying to help you make sense of your argument, but you are failing miserably! Your argument really has no practical application. I've allowed you both real + an imaginary scenario to play with, and you can't even name a club outside of Real Madrid. Pick some small, medium or big size clubs. I don't care where they are located. Just name a few. [Where is Will Ferrell, "Alex Trebek" when you need him?] If you can't do that, how do you these 'opportunities' exist? You can't.
Go down the list of players on Yanks Abroad. There are plenty who aren't with Man U youth (and never were) who've had some success. And that's leaving aside the stacks of players like Bobby Convey and perhaps Clint Dempsey who've arguably helped themselves via going "MLS first". Heath Pearce, for one, has done well by starting small. Nat team cap good. No practical application, my foot. I'm still waiting for the guy who's ever gone to Man U and stuck. That's the only zero I'm aware of in this equation.
I'm not so sure. Reading had a crop of young players come through in the early 90s that hasn't come close to being matched since (or a long time before) and our youth set-up was pretty poor back then. Of course the team was generally much weaker then, being an average third tier team that had no money, so younger players maybe had more opportunity - it's hard to say how many of the young players at the academy now would have got the chance to play if we'd still been a Brentford/Bournemouth type club. The same applies to Chelsea/Arsenal/Man Utd in many ways - to play in the first team you have to be an exceptional player, and the bar has been raised so high that it's incredibly difficult for a young player to make the step up, especially without the chance to prove himself in a proper competitive environment, which the reserve and youth leagues aren't. One thing that is noticeable is that hard up clubs who are forced to play their young players often seem to find more players make the step up than expected. It's not a key to success as overall the clubs don't tend to do well, but regular playing does seem to be a major part of player development - one that will teach a player things that no amount of coaching will. Being a reserve player for a top club will give a player opportunities that they might not otherwise of got - certainly Spector would never have got a loan move to West Ham if he'd come through the ranks at Ipswich, but if he played for Ipswich and did well, there'd be more premiership clubs willing to shell out a transfer fee for him than there'd be if he stayed at Man Utd.
Couldn't even be bothered to list Pearce's club, eh? Why don't you go back to the Yanks Abroad site, and pull up the 12 names of players in Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and Finland listed there and tell me about the fantastic progress they have made since they have been there. Let me know about the number of better offers they've received, National Team caps, improvement in their play, etc. In other words, tell me about their career progression since they went there. Can you? Here's another name for you: Wade Barrett. Tell me about his MLS to Europe saga too please. Prove to us that you are actually interested in the real overall numbers in these arguments, and not just cherry-picking a success here or there. Not withstanding, its probably a wee bit easier to 'stick' with a Viborg vs. Manchester United. Just a wee difference in competing talent.
Supposedly at the end of last year, Spector had several offers including being able to re-up with Man U. I don't think anyone is privvy to the actual # of clubs that were bidding or $$, but in all likelihood Charlton was another.
Bobby Convey was helped by a year in Reading's reserve system. It was his reserves stint that got him into the first team and not his MLS play. MLS just got him into the reserves. Pearce has done well? Please tell me about all his club matches you've been watching. Spector was far better at the same position for the National team and was ahead of Heath in the running for a Cup spot even at a younger age. You are moving the goalposts again. Everytime your argument crumbles you run back to reservists making ManU's first team. Stop being so childish. Making the ManU first team is not the only positive outcome of a reserves stint from the player's perspective. Spector is an EPL starter and that is a very positive outcome (especially if he is crap like you suggest). Cooper is a top forward in MLS and a likely choice for the Nats. The Burn weren't even interested in him before he went to ManU, that is a positive outcome. Reyna went on from the reserves to have the most successful YA career. The fact that you continually have to move the goalposts and narrow your definition of reserves success tell us all that your argument has no merit.
The one thing about guys like Spector that tends to get swept under the rug is that they were youth internationals in significant demand. If Man U wants you, I'd assume an array of teams would like you as well. I mean, think about college recruiting. If UCLA is after you, won't everyone on down to Santa Clara, U San Diego, Pomona College, and, I dunno, Podunk Junior College be trying to get your cell number also? Of course, Man U/UCLA are the most superficially attractive, and a small chunk of people take advantage of the opportunity the attractive teams offer. The question, however, is whether for any given recruit, going to the best recruiting team/school is your best option. I had friends at D1s who disappeared into the bench and oblivion, and I had friends at D3s who won titles and got drafted by MLS or played pro indoor. The irony is that some guys like Convey started in MLS and now are EPL, DeMerit went from nowhere to league to EPL, and Spector is a relegation away from going EPL reserves to EPL down to League or something else. Cooper has already dropped down to MLS (although I'd argue that Man U reserves and Oldham are not necessarily that different a test). Where one starts, even with the supposed resume boon of Man U, does not dictate where one finishes. One assumes that the former obscurity DeMerit makes a good chunk of change more than the Man U graduate Cooper does for Dallas, which I recall being mediocre 5 figures. A certain amount of the Man U advocacy on here is simple envy, as people don't seem to care if there is any first team possibility. Being a guy who always wanted to start and play as much as I could at as high a level as I could, I have difficulty fathoming where this affection for apprenticeing with a brand name with little or no intent on actually using you comes from. After all, 2 or 3 years later, you're still riding on your resume while other kids your age actually have first team experience to sell. Guys like Pearce, who went someplace tiny and probably toiled for peanuts now have a similar career trajectories as you do. It strikes me as a waste of valuable time.
Spector was sold to West Ham this summer for £500,000. His Charlton stint last year was a loan but this was a transfer. I'm sure he would have garnerd at least 10 times that at 20 years old if he has started at Oldham.
Please tell me how Demerit's club is in a better situation than West Ham. Watford are clearly the worst of the EPL. Why do you leave Spector out of the money comparison? And why do you ignore the money that Cooper earned for the 3 years with ManU when comparing him to Demerit? Don't forget that Jay is 27 and Kenny is 22. Jay wishes he made the money Kenny has by 22. Please explain how playing in Denmark is a similar career trajectory to being an EPL starter. Your silence is very telling.
You ask me to name situations that work, I named some. Since there is no way of objectively knocking Pearce's path, for instance, you indulge in ad hominems and proof games, shift the issue. Since I've met the original demand, you now tell me that I was supposed to in thorough detail outline all the numbers of people supporting my theory. You chide me for cherry picking. That's not what you asked, you just asked for a few clubs. That's exactly what "moving the goalposts" is. I respond to your posts and you then lie about how your post meant something different, and how I didn't meet the new interpretation. You then have the gall to say that I am moving goalposts (probably being familiar with the term from your tactical use of the strategy) by consistently using a tough definition of success. Just because the bar might be higher for me than others doesn't mean it's moved one iota, and I think anyone who's read my posts knows that it's stayed the same the whole time. I can't be bothered conversing further with you. Games, games, games. I pegged your lot with Mourinho, and I pegged you on Pearce. I talk to people who are interested in truths about soccer, not people who should run for president because they are decent at rhetorical dodgeball.
My silence? Assuming much, eh? There's this little thing called a cap that Pearce has 5 of and Spector has just 2 of (leaving aside the somewhat aesthetic question of who chose better for their pro location). Amongst people who care about soccer, things like "caps" have been known to matter, and might be seen as making up for toiling in relative obscurity. [Lest the Spector people even get rolling on the "injury" thing, he had zero caps in 2006, even before injury. Pearce had 4.] Watford has a game in hand on the sides above them, which is part of why they are bottom. They have tied a ton of games, have a better goal difference than West Ham and Charlton, and just generally have more signs of life than their paper relegation position shows. A team that's tied half their games just happens to seem a better chance to stay up than ones losing 3/4 of their fixtures, over the long haul. Again, soccer talk, and I know how that's not appreciated in these parts. If Watford so much as ties their game in hand, which they do a lot, they will no longer be "clearly" worst, they will be 19th best. If they win, they will almost be out of relegation. That kind of strikes me as making a mockery of the use of "clearly" along with the word worst. I kind of wish someone would teach y'all about how adjectival and adverbial arguments like "obvious" and "clear" should be ... "obvious" and "clear". Otherwise one is left thinking you have adjectives and adverbs arguing what your facts cannot. Simply put, a rational observer could think that a West Ham team that's stunk since day one will remain stinky, whereas Watford, whose plight is one-point-related, might find their way to three points occasionally and emerge on the other end of the season. God knows what a Man U reservist makes. While I am man enough to say Spector probably makes decent money this year, this is I think his first year actually on a deal as his own man, not as Man U's reserve/loan, so to speak. God knows what he made in previous years. And I think the idea that Cooper made a bunch of money when he never got above reserves is something I'd like to see proven. And then you have to hold that up against DeMerit going to the first team like he did, and making first team checks. As well, Cooper doesn't get to draw an imaginary check from Man U now, he gets paid what Dallas pays him, and I think everyone on the planet wants to make more, rather than less, money over time. I don't think anyone goes to Man U with the idea to be being paid 5 figures by FCD in 3 years. I could make smug remarks at this point about silence coming back but I prefer to have my facts prove my arguments rather than cute sayings and debate tactics.
You are one of the worst posters I have ever seen. A message board is very much a debate and it is a waste of everyone's time if you don't use logic in your opinions. Let me clue you in on one very important reason a player might want to play for ManU's or PSV's reserve team: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ That player at a young age gets a good contract, in fact he easily makes as much as all but the top tier players in MLS. The guys in Holland legally have to make more (over 400k) than all but the top 5 players in MLS. He also will be able to ride that success for years, even if he turns out to suck (look up Johan Kirovski). Then you have the even more ridiculous argument your making. You can't ignore the fact that there has to be a mutual desire to obtain a contract. There is no way a guy like Spector who was starting his first ever national team game at defender was going to get a multi-year competitive salary from a random club in Denmark or Bulgaria. How would Danny Karbasiyoon or Kenny Cooper who weren't even on a national team go about convincing a small club to stake their future on them? Remember than Americans have to pay their own way for every trial or they lose their chance at playing college ball.Your example of Heath Pearce is one of the better ones for americans, i'll acknowledge that. However he wasn't getting paid until 3 years of college were over. That's still late in the development curve. He might make it to the big time leagues some day, but daylight is burning and his contract isn't exactly making him rich either. One other important point, let's call it the Donovan principle. Not every person will chose the best development situation if it means living somewhere they have no interest in. Most americans think big cities in England, Holland, Germany, Italy and Spain are cool places. They don't generally feel the same way about random towns in Norway or Belgium. You only get to live once, if you're not interested in the lifestyle you'd be living why would you waste years of your life? I agree that Jose Mourino would think reserves suck. When you have guys like Joe Cole and Arjen Robben on your bench and the resources to buy a few new top national teamers every year you don't have to worry about silly little things like development of your players.
Half a million is a pittance. MLS sticks its nose up at more than half-millions: Benfica offered $5 million for Eddie Johnson, who is a mere two years older and plays for a team called the Wizards, for crissakes. Even with the exchange rate they don't even compare. And, BTW, the record transfer out of Oldham is roughly 3 times the amount Spector netted for an EPL team's transfer of his rights. I'm "sure" it would have been chump change from Oldham, too....
Actually, there's a very objective way to knock Pearce's career path. Spector and Pearce has spent roughly the same amount of time overseas (Spector just a few months longer..in the useless reserves). In that time, Spector has worked his way up to play the rough equivelent of 1 full season for 3 different Premiership sides. Pearce has worked his way into starting pretty much full-time for 2 years with a middle-table side in Denmark. So, looking at this point in time- and as of last Sunday, Spector was the starter at an English Premiership side. Pearce was the starter in an upper mid-table Denmark side. Better quality side? Check to Spector Who has acquired the most experience. Who has acquired the most important experience (quality of competition). Check to Spector, better league + Europe on 2 occasions. Who was higher placed with the US nats during this time? Well, Pearce got bounced out of the mini-camp for...uh...Todd Dunivent? By all accounts, Spector was going to get invited to the pre-WC camp in NC, and Pearce was not. Check to Spector. Who's received more offers to play at high-level clubs during the last transfer window? Well, Spector was wanted by Man U. (still), likely Charlton and of course West Ham. There were also other sides, but we can't determine which caliber league. Pearce? He wanted to move to a BL1 side, and I believe he even went for training- but he didn't receive an offer. Better offers? Check to Spector. Since Spector has a clean sweep in every important category I can think of, I'd say he has done AT LEAST as well as Pearce, and really better. Throw in the fact that he is younger player, and your 'reserve' ball is crap point shrivels up like a California raisin. You see what looking at one piece of niformation can do? I'm not moving any goal posts on you. You are doing a good enough job sinking your own battleship by trying to use concrete examples. Which I had to help you with, by the way. Oh, and for the record- none of those 12 players I mentioned (+ Wade Barrett) have done anything to advance their careers beyond their current jobs (the one possible exception Robbie Russell slid back to a lesser side after signing with a regular European competition side), none of them have been capped since, and there is precious little evidence that there move to Scandanavian clubs has materially moved them up to bigger and better clubs and league. They are basically maxing out there. Its a job for them...a very nice job, a very nice paying job, but a job. They are not on any sort of fast track. Pearce might still be however. But Spector can make the same claim (and has more evidence to prove it) So, pick another part of the world.1 out of 13 (and I am giving you that 1- it is not conclusive by any means) is not a very strong argument. Try again. (BTW- we haven't even had 13 American players in Man Us reserves yet!)
I knew you'd have to come running, thank you, but you're silence and failure to repond to other posts is still quite telling. There's this little thing called reality that you seem to have zero grasp on. First off Spector has 3 caps, why do you repeatedly lower his cap number. You've already been corrected before. Are you doing this on purpose? Pearce got the vast majority of his caps last winter because his club team was off during the winter. He was available when Spector and Lewis weren't. I guess he was decent enough practice fodder but certainly not National team material. Pearce played very poorly against Canada and Guatemala and his other appearances were just garbage minutes. Spector outplayed Heath, it was no contest. Again, you should talk to Spector or Bruce Arena and find out exactly who was higher on the depth chart. You could at least go back to last winters camp reports and you'd realize just how far down on Arena's list Pearce had fallen. Pearce was practice fodder while Spector was playing meaningful games in the EPL. I guess your version of "soccer talk" ignores WINS. Ties are not going to get Watford out of the relegation zone and they have shown almost no ability to win games. My statement of "clearly the worst" is from actually watching all three teams play. Charlton and West Ham and a few others have been crap too, just a bit better crap than Watford. You'd have to be pretty foolish to think that Watford is in a better situation than West Ham, at best they are equal at worst their lack of wins will leave them in 20th. I remeber England66 speaking about how much Cooper was earning at ManU and IIRC it was much much more than he's making in MLS and much more than you would make in the depths that Demerit started out at. I'd be flat out shocked if Spector hasn't made more money than Demerit over the last 4 years and there's absolutely zero doubt in anyone's mind that both Cooper and Spector have far out earned Demerit at 21 and 22.
That's what his agents want you to believe. There's never been a statement from Benfica confirming the offer. £500,000 is more than Demerit has ever been transfered for.
LMFAO.....if this isn't seeing the glass as always half full I don't know what is...."19th best" in a 20 team league......most ********s would term this second from bottom.....