[Bushnell] A ‘broken’ system, nascent culture: Why the U.S. has never had a world-class men’s soccer

Yes but a large part of the team is all children of immigrants. And France is not a country that has birthright citizenship so the question of the ease of becoming a citizen in comparison matter.

 

From their current World Cup roster

Kylian Mbappé: Father (Wilfried) was born in Cameroon; mother (Fayza) is of Algerian origin.

Michael Olise: Born in England; father is Nigerian and mother is French-Algerian.

Ousmane Dembélé: Father is from Mali; mother has Senegalese and Mauritanian roots.

Bradley Barcola: Father is from Togo.

Rayan Cherki: Parents are of Algerian descent.

Marcus Thuram: Born in Italy while his father, French legend Lilian Thuram (originally from Guadeloupe), was playing there; maternal roots trace to the Caribbean.

Kingsley Coman: Both parents were born in Guadeloupe.

Midfielders

Aurélien Tchouaméni: Both parents were born in Cameroon before moving to France.

N'Golo Kanté: Both parents immigrated to France from Mali.

Youssouf Fofana: Parents are of Malian and Ivorian origin.

Manu Koné: Parents are of Ivorian descent.

Warren Zaïre-Emery: Mother is of Martiniquais descent.

Defenders

Dayot Upamecano: Both parents immigrated to France from Guinea-Bissau.

Ibrahima Konate: Parents immigrated to France from Mali.

William Saliba: Mother is from Cameroon; father is of Lebanese-French descent.

Jules Koundé: Father is of Beninese descent.

Malo Gusto: Father is from Martinique.

Theo & Lucas Hernández: Father (former player Jean-François Hernández) is of Spanish descent.

Goalkeepers

Mike Maignan: Born in French Guiana to a Haitian mother and a French father.

Brice Samba: Born in the Republic of the Congo (Congo-Brazzaville) before moving to France as a child.

 

I should be a bit more precise. I think the size of the immigrant population in the U.S. is relevant mostly through the cultural capital they bring and how that affects the way their children are immersed. That's why I cited children of immigrants such as Pierre and Albert. There are many others. Pepi, Busio, Luna, Cremaschi, Paredes, Raines, Soma, Habroune, Gozo, Hall, Berchimas, Campbell, etc, etc. The numbers keep growing.

There are still some notable players on the national team with entirely old-stock backgrounds and parents with no connection to soccer. But their relative proportions are falling, especially among our elite youth level prospects. They are being squeezed out by the children of people with strong cultural ties to soccer, a population that has grown in relative size.

You see this phenomenon in other fields. At various times in our history we've had flows of immigrants with strong scientific and engineering backgrounds. They make a contribution. But then their children go on to make an even larger contribution.

 

Herrrr... You're wrong. Awfully wrong.

 

You've just proven my point: very few French players are actual immigrants.

 

Yes: my point is simply that cataloging the nationalities of a given player's parents and grandparents is utterly pointless; it yields no actionable information and explains nothing. What would be more interesting, however, is explaining why kids from disadvantaged backgrounds and neighborhoods are overrepresented in the French national team, whereas Italy, for instance, fails to—or chooses not to—integrate them...

 

I think the increase in the share of the immigrant population is much more important in the U.S. than in France because old-stock Americans are less likely to have much soccer-related cultural capital. Immigration has had a hugely positive effect on the French national team via the children of immigrants. It will ultimately have a larger effect in the United States. You can already see it when you make any sort of list of our top youth prospects.

 

Yes but a large proportion are the children of immigrants. Which is relevant to the discussion.

 

I am not. France does not have birthright citizenship. Being born in France does not make you a French citizen.

 

I don't have precise figures, but it's pretty clear Italy has become a major immigration country, notably from Morocco. I think -but this has to be checked- that the citizenship rules -notably birthright citizenship rules- are tighter in Italy than in France. That may be an explaination.

 

The point is that they prosper by being in a soccer development quality environment, like France has.
France soccer development isnot pushed (up) by talents with certain ethnical roots.

 

Yes, subject to certain conditions that are not very difficult to meet—namely, having lived in France for a few years between the ages of 11 and 18. In that case, citizenship is a right.

 

The academy system is very important. But for many top players their first and most important coach was a parent.

 

You however are not given citizenship just for being born in France. Hence it. It being a country with birthright citizenship.

 

If this were the case, then you would expect a similar proportion of "old stock" (not sure how I feel about that term) and immigrant/recent immigrant heritage players in the team. However this is not the case.

I am skeptical about immigration being the only factor here, though. I would guess it has just as much to do with socio-economic factors, as well as accessibility/exposure to infrastructure in the areas where immigrants are resettling.

For this reason, it would be a false expectation to conclude that the US or Italy's player pools will be strengthened simply by immigration. Basically, we would still need the type of infrastructure that France has in place in order to see the same level of progress.

 

Sure. Birthright citizenship with certain loose rules. Birthright citizenship nevertheless. Otherwise many French players wouldn't be French.

 

It is a bit of both. We have some children of immigrants who come from relatively privileged backgrounds. Busio, de la Torre, Ferreira, Campbell. I assume any child of a former pro grew up under fairly privileged circumstances.

 

Sorry, but you're wrong.
I have time after time tried to debunk that myth of kids being coached by their dad, it simply isnot true.
Dunno if it's a projecting of how parents in the USA do things, like playing baseball/basketball with their kids on how parents=dads in Europe are supposed to act with soccer.
We have over here amateur clubs that cost next to nothing where kids get in at 6.
No dad in his right mind is going to pester his little kid about tactics/technical things in the years before.
You don't see dads over here doing soccer drills with their sons. We played soccer on our own, no dads in sight, nobody got "lessons" from their dads apart from our play on the grassfields in the neighbourhood.
In my primary school class was a kid, who was selected by Feyenoord to play in their academy, zero input from his dad.
My neighbourhood kid, who later became the first foreign national team coach of Japan, was playing for Feyenoord's youth team, a kid from a Surinam black marine officer and a white Surinam woman. Zero input from dad.
It might be the sporting landscape of the USA, expensive for kids that makes dads go and practice things with their offspring, but it is NON-EXISTENT overhere.

And don't come up with the anecdotal "evidence" of former top players, having their kids in it too.
Those are just incidents in the grand scale of total numbers.

 

I can't talk about other countries, but many of our top players have cited their fathers as their first and most important coach. Both Reynas, Tab Ramos, Balboa, Dest, Weah (interestingly it was his mom not his famous dad), Pulisic, Berhalter fils, Bradley fils. Among the younger generation: Sullivan, Gozo, Habroune. There are probably others. Those are the ones I know about.

 

Yup, it's the system that filters out the ones with good to exceptional talents and then embed their talent in systems to make the best use of their inborn qualities.