Bush Will Push For Gay Marriage Ban

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Cascarino's Pizzeria, Nov 7, 2004.

  1. skipshady

    skipshady New Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Orchard St, NYC
    Honest question. Whatever issues that arise from having same-sex parents - isn't it conceivable that they come up because the community around them are unaccepting, or at least unprepared to deal with same sex parents? If that is the case, then time and experience will take care of the problem.

    Basically, are same sex parents the problem, or is society a problem for same sex parents?

    In any case, there are too many children who bounce from foster parents to foster parents, or spend their entire childhoods under state custody. Not to sound cynical, but can you afford to be picky?
     
  2. obie

    obie New Member

    Nov 18, 1998
    NY, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Multiple = 2?
    That's total bullcrap. You're saying that there's a chain of goodness for kids that goes something like this:

    1. Try to find a two-parent, mixed-gender family.
    2. Try harder. Maybe the drunks on the corner want another kid for the welfare money?
    3. Are you sure that you can't find a mother and a father? Come on, you're just not looking hard enough.
    4. OK, fine, maybe the gay couple over there... wait! I've found a halfway house instead!

    There are so many things wrong with your logic, both scientific and cultural. You say that having gay adoptive parents could affect the sexuality of the child -- they can't. You say that lesbians can't "behave like females" and gay men can't "behave like males" -- that's absurd. You say that "the professional child counselors have always said the same thing" but you have nothing to back it up -- because such studies don't exist in reputable scientific journals.

    You have nothing here. As the child of divorced parents, I can say with near absolute certainty that there's no magic bullet on family type to make the kids turn out as productive members of society. Yet you state that gay parents are a "last resort" -- that's not based in fact, and it's bad policy.
     
  3. dj43

    dj43 New Member

    Aug 9, 2002
    Nor Cal
    Obie,

    Multiple means exactly what I said. Multiple. Right now my wife has 2 kids in her classes right now that are having personality issues related to the fact they do not have normal role models at home. Over the years there have been numerous others she has experienced. I have had similar experiences. But of course this is in northern California where the incidence of homosexual couples is higher than most other areas. Belittling the numbers doesn't refute the evidence.

    But the fact is, you know full well that what I am saying is correct. You just have such an agenda you will not admit it. Frankly I am astonished that you, or anyone else, would even suggest there is not plenty of evidence to support the fact that kids develop better in a heterosexual environment. Even Rosie O'Donnell has admitted that fact, though she still chose to ignore it in her personal life. Again selfishness over proper child rearing.

    I am sorry you had to experience a divorce in your family. That does make life harder for the kids but it in no way justifies same-sex parenting as an alternative.

    The fact remains that selfish decisions by adults make the lives of children much more difficult, whether they are hetero or homosexual. Just because individuals of one group make selfish decisions doesn't justify the other group doing the same thing. It IS about the children.
     
  4. fidlerre

    fidlerre Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 10, 2000
    Central Ohio
    Ahh yes, the "I am right" syndrome. Gotta love it.

    So your opinion on the matter is that much better than my or Obie's opinion?
     
  5. dj43

    dj43 New Member

    Aug 9, 2002
    Nor Cal
    Actually it is a technique I learned from the left-wingers on this site.

    But are you, and others, actually trying to suggest that children will develop just as well in a homosexual environnment as in a heterosexual environment?

    Please answer that question and I'll get back to you later this evening.
     
  6. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    I am.
     
  7. fidlerre

    fidlerre Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 10, 2000
    Central Ohio
    Ahh, it's so cute. Lumping every "left-winger" together as one. Don't go stereotyping now...
    Let me help you out here, there are thousands upon thousands of factors that create one environment that is or is not better than another environment, regardless of who the hell the parents are. You are generalizing and it just isn't that simple...

    Are you saying that a person in a household where there is a mother and a father, yet the father is an alcoholic and beats the mother is a better "household" for a child because there is a "mommy" and a "daddy" in the house? Please. I would much rather see that child raised in a family with two loving "mommys" or "daddys" than a fvcked up household with parents of the oppsite sex, but hey, that's just me.

    In the perfect scenario perhaps you are correct but I am still waiting to see you back your "personal conclusions" with facts, and "I'm a teacher and I have seen it" doesn't cut it because I know a few teachers in Chicago that have kids in their classrooms raised by homosexual couples that are the best, most-open minded, socialable students in their classes.
    Please do.
     
  8. Alec

    Alec New Member

    Feb 11, 2004
    There's always the school of thought that homosexuality is like many other chemical imbalances, and is just a mental disability.

    To take the line that to deny marriage for same-sex couples is wrong because it's discriminatory, it is easy to extend that argument to say it's wrong to discriminate against persons who (for example) want to marry animals. At some point a line needs to be drawn.
     
  9. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Well, maybe a line DOES need to be drawn...for you. Allow me to illustrate:

    Sex between consenting adult humans--OK.
    Other stuff--Not so much OK.

    Are we clear now?
     
  10. Danwoods

    Danwoods Member

    Mar 20, 2000
    Bertram, TX, US
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So we should all accept your morals as "the line"?
     
  11. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh, we're going to start arguing about bestiality now? How about child molesting? If you can't understand the difference between consenting adults and animals, I can't help you.
     
  12. Alec

    Alec New Member

    Feb 11, 2004
    Don't you see the problem? It can equally be said "if you can't see the difference between normal sexual relations and abnormal homosexuality, I can't help you".

    To many people, there is not much material difference between a chemical imbalance that leads to homosexuality and chemical imbalances that cause other sorts of abnormal behaviour - such as beastiality.
     
  13. Danwoods

    Danwoods Member

    Mar 20, 2000
    Bertram, TX, US
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And that's the reason we should accept your morals as the ones that the whole country should adhere to?

    I can't believe you're comparing homosexuality to beastiality and child molesting. Un-fvcking-believable.
     
  14. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not comparing them, you did. Grow up.

    You just don't get it, and I suspect you're stubborning determined not to. You're the one who wants to ban homosexual unions--an act confined to consenting adults. You're the one who wants to impose his values on others.

    It really is as simple as that. You don't have to approve of it. Just stay out of it.
     
  15. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I thought it was the act that was immoral. You can't even keep your faux-scientific rationale straight.
     
  16. Alec

    Alec New Member

    Feb 11, 2004
    The point is morality. If all these behaviours - homosexuality, beastiality, whatever - come down to the balance of chemicals in the brain, it's up to morality to distinguish between which of these are right and which are wrong.

    To say "homosexual marriage right, animal marriage wrong" is as equally founded in moral belief as saying "hetrosexual marriage right, homosexual marriage wrong". It makes the banning of homosexual marriage no more of an imposition of values than the banning of beastial marriage.
     
  17. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, exactly. Nature has made some people imperfect--impure, if you will, or at least flawed. Subhuman, perhaps. How wonderful we have 'morality' to help us decide which humans have the proper brain chemistry. It's imperitive that we protect pure, decent, heterosexual civilization from the chemically impure.
     
  18. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina

    Congratulations! You have just won the endorsement of the Maine Sheep Breeders Association.
     
  19. Smiley321

    Smiley321 Member

    Apr 21, 2002
    Concord, Ca
    Did anyone try to ban homosexual unions? I don't think so.

    What some of us want to prevent is the practice of licensing those unions, and especially changing the definition of marriage in order to facilitate the licenses.

    See what happens when you license Chiropractors? Pretty soon, everybody wants one. And you can't very well say anymore that we don't give licenses to quacks.
     
  20. Alec

    Alec New Member

    Feb 11, 2004
    It's not about protection. It's about discrimination.

    So many claim 'discrimination!' as the overriding reason why it must be right to allow homosexual marriage, as a reason above personal morality. But if we were serious about not discriminating, why do we allow the persecution of those who, rather than being attracted to the opposite sex, or the same sex, are attracted to animals?

    The answer is morality. Because like it or not, when we draw the line in the sand about what constitutes appropriate or inappropriate behaviour (aand everyone does it - see beastiality), at some point it all eventually comes down to personal values - regardless of what stance we hold. What irks me is when people say "You are wrong. You cannot be right on this issue." when the ultimate source of each person's position is merely differing morality - neither of which is objectively more or less valid than the other.

    Hell, I'm not even saying banning homosexual marriage is my position. I'm saying that neither side has the high ground on this issue, because at the end of the day, both are ultimately making value judgments - neither argument is more 'logical' or 'rational' than the other.
     
  21. Alec

    Alec New Member

    Feb 11, 2004
    Excellent. Now I can stand for Congress confident of securing a majority vote.
     
  22. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    Hi. I'm Dan, you'll meet the rest of the gang.

    What I have done above is a typical example of "post-fixing." The premise is that Poster A left off or misstated some crucial information, which Poster B helpfully corrects using the "quote" feature. To let Poster A know that Poster B has corrected facts, logic, or whatever error, it is customary for Poster B to write "Fixed your post."

    Poster B can also say "Fixed your stupid, stupid, STUPID post" or "Fixed your post, jackass" or "Stick your thumb up your ass and go bowling." It's the thought that counts.

    I hope you've found this helpful. I have a feeling you'll be on the receiving end of this a lot. Enjoy!
     
  23. fidlerre

    fidlerre Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 10, 2000
    Central Ohio
    Good lord, a decent discussion was going and some "Newbie" who hasn't posted on BigSoccer since March of this year waddles in, just happens to find a thread in the politics boards about gay-marriage and starts a tangent about beastiality. Wonderful. Thanks for bringing such insight to the conversation Alec.
     
  24. Alec

    Alec New Member

    Feb 11, 2004
    Thanks Dan. You should do a Q&A or something.

    Seriously, I would like an answer though. How is it any less discriminatory to ban him from marrying a donkey that he is 'in love' with than it is to ban a guy from marrying a man he is 'in love' with?

    I'm not saying we shouldn't draw a line at all, but where exactly it goes is a moral debate - on both sides. Not a rational one.
     
  25. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fine, fine, marriage then. You'll allow them to couple up just as long as they don't get it into their heads they have the same rights as everybody else. We get it.
     

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