Bush Says Iraq Is 'Better Than You Probably Think'

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Mel Brennan, Oct 9, 2003.

  1. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This guy would be funny if he wasn't in charge; there's a career for him on Fox News when he's done tho', if we all aren't in Hell by then...

    MANCHESTER, New Hampshire, Oct. 9 -- President Bush told Americans today that the situation in Iraq is "a lot better than you probably think," as he sought to rally the flagging support for the U.S. occupation...

    ..Bush's speech fell on one of the more violent days in Iraq; an attack on a police station killed eight, a Spanish diplomat was slain and another American soldier was killed in an attack on a convoy...


    :rolleyes:

    ...Bush blamed the media for the negative impression of events in Iraq. "Life is getting better; it's a lot better than you probably think," he said, citing improvements in Iraq's infrastructure. "Just ask people who have been there. They're stunned when they come back -- when they go to Iraq and the stories they tell are much different from the perceptions that you're being told life is like."

    That message amplified an off-handed remark Bush made on Monday at the White House that it's difficult to perceive progress in Iraq "when you listen to the filter" of the press...


    Oh, now I understand. It's the mass media that's been AGAINST Bush this entire time...

    :rolleyes:

    This guy couldn't command my left nut, let alone a nation, let alone the nation with the most powerful military...I would never serve under him; *#*#*#*#ing piece of *#*#*#*# liar.
     
  2. mannyfreshstunna

    mannyfreshstunna New Member

    Feb 7, 2003
    Naperville, no less
    Translation: Waaaa-waaaaa. I want my binky!!!! Waaaaaaa.
     
  3. Richth76

    Richth76 New Member

    Jul 22, 1999
    Washington, D.C.
    Re: Re: Bush Says Iraq Is 'Better Than You Probably Think'

    Translation: I can't address the issue becuase facts never back up any of my arguments so I'll try and attack the other person's message.

    I was listening to that fool on NPR yesterday. I was laughing so hard I almost wrecked on the Beltway. He sounded like Rainman repeating lines from a John Wayne western.
     
  4. John Galt

    John Galt Member

    Aug 30, 2001
    Atlanta
    It seems reasonable to be concerned about the current state of affairs in Iraq. It seems unreasonable to dismiss predictions that things will and are getting better. The most likely outcome, even if the U.S. did nothing different, is that Iraq will get better.
     
  5. mannyfreshstunna

    mannyfreshstunna New Member

    Feb 7, 2003
    Naperville, no less
    Somebody gets it!
     
  6. Michael Russ

    Michael Russ Member

    Jun 11, 2002
    Buffalo, NY
    I am so glad that I support the President. When I hear good news about Iraq, I can just be happy, when I hear bad news I can just be sad, and I can hope with all my might that things will get better.

    I can't imagine how conflicted Bush bashers must be.
     
  7. Matrim55

    Matrim55 Member+

    Aug 14, 2000
    Berkeley
    Club:
    Connecticut
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Conversely, I talked to my best friend the other night for the first time in six months. He was in Qatar on R&R. His description of the situation:

    "Worse than you can possibly imagine. It's a nightmare. These people hate us because we're killing them, and Donnie (Rumsfeld - most troops in Iraq reserve a special kind of hatred for the SecDef) thinks they're going to be giving us flowers."

    I tend to believe the people who are there. And pray for them. The administration, however, can take their lies and shove them elbow-deep up their collective ass.
     
  8. Norsk Troll

    Norsk Troll Member+

    Sep 7, 2000
    Central NJ
    Tell that to the Afghanis who don't live inside UN controlled Kabul, and are once more living in a vast battlefield of warring factions. But that's ok, there were only 60 or so of them killed yesterday. That's better, right?

    JG - I'm with you that we simply don't know how it's going to end up. But I don't think we have any guaranties that what we are "establishing" in Iraq will be there within 6 months of our having left Iraq. Will the nation devolve into rival warring parties? Will neighboring nations invade? Will prior regimes reestablish themselves? I think any of those are as likely as a free and democratic state emerging. Sure, we all want the latter, but that doesn't mean we have to blindly put our trust in the White House that they're doing everything necessary to get us there.
     
  9. Richth76

    Richth76 New Member

    Jul 22, 1999
    Washington, D.C.
    Unfortunately that someone is not you.
     
  10. mannyfreshstunna

    mannyfreshstunna New Member

    Feb 7, 2003
    Naperville, no less
    Welcome to the last 1000 years of Afghani history.


    Except here are some new things in Afghanistan.

    -No taliban jerks in power

    -No AQ terror camps

    - national army

    -freedom for women
     
  11. mannyfreshstunna

    mannyfreshstunna New Member

    Feb 7, 2003
    Naperville, no less
    That makes no sense. I was making reference to the fact that someone understands that Iraq is getting better. Of course i understand this notion. You however, seem bent on making sure that no one thinks Iraq has it better now than they did under Saddam.
     
  12. John Galt

    John Galt Member

    Aug 30, 2001
    Atlanta
    I also agree with these sentiments. My point is more that it's unrealistic to think that the current predicament is permanent. I think Iraq has a better history of a complex society than Afghanistan and so restoring it to the status quo (water, electricity, TV, banking) will inevitably be better than today. Those prior conditions are not necessarily true in Afghanistan (or say, the Congo). I do agree that improving the current standard of living does not guarantee future political stability.
     
  13. Richth76

    Richth76 New Member

    Jul 22, 1999
    Washington, D.C.
    All of this may be true in Kabul, but the Taliban are still looming in the Southern Mountains and our friend OBL is still kicking it in his cave somewhere.

    I have a friend who works at Langley. He said our spy satellites are very ususful at tracking these bastards. The only problem is they can't see in caves.
     
  14. Richth76

    Richth76 New Member

    Jul 22, 1999
    Washington, D.C.
    You don't get the point. You've taken this whole with us/against us thing to a whole new level.

    Iraq will get better, I have NEVER said the Iraqi people were better off under Saddam. I'm just a bit cynical that the needs of the Iraqis aren't being met before of the needs of Halliburton.

    See Superdave's thread if you need examples of why I feel this way.

    I have friends in Iraq, have spoken with them and heard their first hand accounts. Excuse me if I take their assesment of the situation over that of Faux News.
     
  15. mannyfreshstunna

    mannyfreshstunna New Member

    Feb 7, 2003
    Naperville, no less
    I guess you didn't hear how power has exceeded pre war levels.
     
  16. Richth76

    Richth76 New Member

    Jul 22, 1999
    Washington, D.C.
    I agree that Iraq will eventually be the pinnacle of the Middle East. It will have a nice middle class, and be a capitalist democracy. But right now, it's a shithole and it's going to be a shithole for awhile.

    The only way Iraq will have political stability is if there is economic stability/decent standard of living. If everyone is coddlfied, they're happy and without complaint/uprising. Why do you think they were throwing rocks in the streets the other day? Not because they hate the US, becuase they don't have jobs.
     
  17. Richth76

    Richth76 New Member

    Jul 22, 1999
    Washington, D.C.
    Yes, that electricity will do them well when they're starving to death.
     
  18. house18

    house18 Member

    Jun 23, 2003
    St. Louis, MO
    Every morning I start my day by flipping back and forth between CNN and Fox News and I see good journalism from both, but the only scenes or commentary I ever see from Iraq on CNN is negative. You never see a person smiling or hear about a school that is open. You might say Fox is biased, but on Fox I hear about the good and the bad. If someone who knew nothing about what has been happening for the last year sat down and watched CNN he would think Iraq is a repeat of the Germans in Russia after winter hit in WWII.
     
  19. Richth76

    Richth76 New Member

    Jul 22, 1999
    Washington, D.C.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/10/08/wiraq08.xml

    ---
    By next summer, Iraq will need more than double the 4,500 megawatts currently being produced and £16 billion of investment to reverse years of neglect, officials said.

    "It will take several years and a complete refurbishment of the power grid before we can give Iraq a stable power supply," said an electricity ministry spokesman.
    ---

    Power generation is up. But the system is still faulty. BTW 4,500 megawatts is nothing.

    American Electric Power serves 4 million customers from parts Virginia, WV, OH, IN and Illinois. They produce 42,000 megawatts for those 4 million customers.
     
  20. fishbiproduct

    fishbiproduct New Member

    Mar 29, 2002
    Pasadena Ca.
    Two new power-plants have been built by
    Halliburton:

    [​IMG]

    $400 millions each.
    A bargain.
     
  21. Norsk Troll

    Norsk Troll Member+

    Sep 7, 2000
    Central NJ
    Absolutely. Iraq is a much more modern state, that should be easier to manage than Afghanistan. And Iraq also has the benefit of a huge financial resource sitting under its sands to help it get there (of course, I also recall reading that opium production in Afghanistan has skyrocketed since we removed the Taliban, so you might say they have huge financial resource as well). The issue will inevitably come down to who controls the oil - who governs Iraq.
     
  22. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A meaningless freedom. Under the Taliban they couldn't leave their homes alone without getting arrested or beaten. Now they can't leave their homes alone without getting raped. What an improvement.


    I'm sure that Iraq will progress better than Afghanistan has, because Iraq does have something of an infrastructure to start with. And I suspect that most Iraqis genuinely desire freedom and self-determination. And nobody expects them to have those things overnight.

    On the other hand, if democracy is to be achieved in Iraq, the people have to cooperate with their American occupiers... er, I mean liberators. Right now they have no services, they have no jobs, they need food and water and electricity, and their provisional government has no power. Also, innocent Iraqis continue to get accidentally murdered every day. In other words, they have no reason to cooperate with Americans. They have no reason to provide information about the terrorists or Baathists in their communities. They have no reason NOT to join Al Qaeda. At least the terrorists can pay them.

    So that, in short, is why the administration's handling of the situation in Iraq strikes me as a colossal *#*#*#*# up, even if, eventually, they blunder their way into some form a political stability for the country.
     
  23. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    Please. There's no reason to be this extreme. Getting rid of the Taliban is progress for women's rights even if practical conditions are not what they should be.
     
  24. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Frankly, I don't think it's such an extreme assessment. The formal structure depriving Afghan women of their rights has been eliminated, but the ensuing chaos has not been an improvement for them. Until the warlords, bandits and gangs are removed from the picture, Afghan women will have a hard time exercising any kind of freedom. Rape and sexual slavery are commonplace for them.

    It's certainly a very important step that the Taliban have been removed from power. It's just frustrating to recall the President citing women's rights as one of the benefits of fighting the Taliban, and to hear his supporters laud our progress in helping Afghan women, when for all practical purposes their lives are not improved.
     
  25. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    On the one hand, we have negativism and pessimism.

    Guess who falls into that mindset? Just guess?

    On the other hand we have positive attitudes and optimism?

    Guess, just guess, who falls into that mindset? Who?

    The instinctive, unthoughtful Bush haters will believe that it's all falling apart, that it's all terrible, that it's all our fault. The same tired refrain, over and over again.

    Let me go slow for you.

    Bad things have happened. Bad things are going to happen.

    Good things have happened. Good things are going to happen.

    The situation -- both in terms of infrastructure and it terms of organizing a modern state after a criminal despostic regime -- is a lot more difficult that we bargained for. Could we have planned better, made better decisions on the ground? Have we made serious mistakes?

    Sure, yes, absolutely.

    Are things going to get better?

    Sure, yes, absolutely.

    Is improvement going to result, directly and indirectly, from the actions we take, the decisions we make?

    Sure, yes, absolutely.

    Are we going to make some decisions that are going to stymie progress at times?

    Sure, yes, absolutely.

    In other words, welcome to reality.
     

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