Bundesliga Assignments and Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by balu, Aug 1, 2019.

  1. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    According to bundesliga.de,
    90'
    Spiel abgebrochen
    Das Spiel wird nicht wieder angepfiffen und endet beim Stand von 0:2.
    71'
    Spiel unterbrochen
    Das Spiel ist aktuell unterbrochen, weil der Linienrichter Christian Gittelmann von einem Becher getroffen wurde.

    Gittelmann was hit by a thrown cup(doesn't say what kind of cup). The game was not restarted. I assume it will be considered a 0-2 win by visiting Gladbach.
     
  2. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Interesting situation from Saturday's Freiburg v Bayern match.

    In the 85th minute with Bayern leading 3:1 they made a double substitution.

    But only one player came off while two went on.

    Play reportedly resumed for 17 seconds with Bayern fielding 12 players until VAR notified referee Christian Dingert.

    The confusion was reviewed for roughly five minutes before everything was sorted and the match resumed.

    One of the substitutes that entered, Marcel Sabitzer, eventually scored Bayern's fourth goal in the 90+6th minute.

    Match info
    https://www.kicker.de/freiburg-gegen-bayern-2022-bundesliga-4721743/spielinfo

    There are reports that the match result could be looked into.
    https://www.marca.com/en/football/bundesliga/2022/04/02/6248791d22601ddb118b4594.html

    Kicker's 'live ticker' text commentary (loosely translated):
    86' Substitution Bayern: Niklas Sule on for Corentin Tolisso
    86' Substitution Bayern: Marcel Sabitzer in for Kingsley Coman
    87' The game is currently paused. Something doesn't seem to have gone right when the Bayern team made the subs.
    90'+1 It's all a bit unclear what exactly the problem with Bayern's change was. The Bavarians are said to have been fielded more players for a short time. The fact is, the game goes on for now.
    90'+1 There are eight minutes of added time due to the long break.
    https://www.kicker.de/freiburg-gegen-bayern-2022-bundesliga-4721743/ticker
     
    IASocFan repped this.
  3. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In terms of the laws there's not much to look into if it was caught quickly.
     
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It’s interesting that VAR caught it to the extent that VAR isn’t supposed to be catching such things necessarily. But it shows a window into the soft, behind-the-scenes stuff that VAR is providing, like assistance with stoppage time. I don’t think anyone will complain that VAR intervened here to avert catastrophe. But this is probably adjacent to the category of things where someone might say “hey wait a minute, you’re not supposed to be doing that.”
     
  5. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And I'm sure anything from DfB will be looking into the 4th and how a substitution issue happened and not the VAR for catching something that technically isn't in their scope.
     
  6. ilyazhito

    ilyazhito Member

    Manchester United
    Spain
    Feb 9, 2021
    How did Bayern end up with 12 players, if the player has to be off the pitch before his substitute comes on?

    I understand how this can happen in a club or high school game, where expectations on substitutions are laxer. In many cases, a non-TV CR will be allowing the substitute to run onto the pitch before the player is off to save time. That means that there will be briefly 12 players on the pitch for one team, but the ball will not be put into play until there are 11 for each side. This is why the whistle blows on a restart after substitutions happen, even if the restart would not normally call for a whistle (e.g. a throw-in).

    However, in TV games, the 4th official and AR1 will hold the substitute at the sideline until the corresponding player leaves. If there are multiple substitutions in a TV game, the entering substitute will be at the halfway line, and the player and substitute will exit and enter in pairs, as in volleyball, upon the center referee's signal. The other entering substitutes will move toward the halfway line after the replaced player has left, until the process is complete.
     
  7. soccerref69420

    I literally only watch soccer games to watch the refs
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    When players get pissy at us refs for making players come all the way off before entering, especially in leagues that track subs, I wish we could show them this video.
     
    RefIADad repped this.
  8. refinDC

    refinDC Member

    Aug 7, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This was easier for the fourth when the departing player almost always left at the halfway line. Now with players going off all over the fourth relies on the rest of the crew to communicate when someone is all the way off. Didn't see the game but easy to imagine that someone said "they're off" and that was misinterpreted as both departing players. Sure though - there should be more awareness to catch it.

    Laws cover this issue though so not sure what there is to "look into" about the result
     
    socal lurker repped this.
  9. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    While it seems bewildering that this could happen with a 4O to manage substitutions, the only possible explanation I can think of is that the 4O believed the player leaving had left the field on the far side.

    And perhaps that is what is being investigated--did the player leave and come back onto the field?

    Did anyone get cautioned? It would seem if the 4O let the sub on because the player being subbed left, the player who had "left" should have been cautioned for re-entry. (Though I can understand how the ref team would just eat one in this context unless it was sure it was the player's fault.)

    Just imagine if a goal had been scored in those brief moments with 12 on the field . . .
     
  10. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona




     
  11. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is there something in the bundesliga regulations that would make this protestable? Because in the laws of the game there's not. It was identified quickly and the extra player was removed. I don't see what the issue would be.
     
  12. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Fwiw, referee Christian Dingert and his assistants, Benedikt Kempkes and Timo Gerach, were involved in another substitution controversy earlier this season.
    In August during the DFB-Pokal First Round match, Wolfsburg made six substitutions against Preußen Münster, one over the allowable five.
    Wolfsburg won the game 3:1 after extra time but Preußen Münster appealed and were awarded a 2:0 walkover.

    https://www.dfb.de/dfb-pokal/spielt...runde/preussen-muenster-vfl-wolfsburg-2330059

    https://www.kicker.de/muenster-gegen-wolfsburg-2021-dfb-pokal-4726424/ticker
     
    IASocFan and ilyazhito repped this.
  13. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    IASocFan repped this.
  14. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Why wouldn't you give a shot after the prior game with the extra sub was overturned? Yes, we know that is quite different, but . . .

    That said, I totally agree with you that no competent body would take the appeal seriously
     
  15. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
  16. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #142 unclesox, Apr 5, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2022
    I know slim to no German but this article from Kicker magazine appears to argue that an appeal is appropriate, adding that overturning the result to a Freiburg victory should not be the sanction.

    The author makes two points as to why he supports the appeal:
    - To clarify who exactly is at fault (Bayern or the officiating team).
    - To clarify how many seconds is deemed okay to play with 12 players / What actions can the extra player take before it's no longer okay.

    He (apparently) asks how this situation would have unfolded if it had happened in a match during a tight championship race or during a relegation battle where the outcome could have consequences for club employees.
    By bringing the issue up now instead of letting it go, clarifications on these rules (which apparently are not addressed by the DFB) can be made ASAP in case such a situation, however rare it may be, turns up again.
    That's how I interpret the article, anyway.
    Any German speakers out there would probably give a better translation of the article.

    https://www.kicker.de/zwei-grosse-m...r-freiburger-einspruch-richtig-896925/artikel
     
  17. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    You summed up the main points. If Freiburg do not appeal, this issue would not be considered and clarified. When this incident goes unpunished, an intentional "mistake" of bringing in the 12th player cannot be ruled out in the future. And if they don't appeal, their board could face legal action from their own side for not doing the best for the club's interests.
     
  18. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Yup. Really important to have clear rules about unicorns. You never know when someone might bring a tame unicorn to the game . . .
     
    IASocFan and Thegreatwar repped this.
  19. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    More like Halley's Comet since that actually exists.
     
    Thegreatwar and tomek75 repped this.
  20. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't get what needs to be clarified by the Bundesliga. The laws cover what happens if a goal is scored by a team with an extra man. It covers proper substitution procedure. It covers the misconduct for entering without permission.
     
  21. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Nothing. It is nothing more than pandering to the fan base.
     
  22. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    unclesox repped this.

Share This Page