I didn't say that. I think Parcels is a good coach. BB is a probably the greatest coach in NFL history. It's not a knock to be the passenger with him. Pippen is an all time great NBA player for example.
I’m just throwing out there that in any sport there can be multiple great coaches on a team. Actually it probably helps to become great to be with a great coach who has other great assistants. Kind of like playing on a top team it pushes you.
For the sake of argument, let's say taking Germany to 3rd place in the WC in Germany is an exceptional result (for the record, Germany's WC records outside of Europe altogether in the same era: 2nd in South Korea, 3rd in South Africa, 1st in Brazil) -- it doesn't make a "pedigree", which is a history of winning / excellence. Is getting out of the group the best accomplishment of the Klinsmann era? How does it stack up in the history of accomplishments by this team?
Sometimes, when Feilhaber is honest, you can see where he and JK went wrong. Benny has said he didn't focus in games for 90 minutes until 2014ish. He used to take time off during the game. He has also said he didn't do well in January camp because he never stayed in shape in the offseason. Now, should Feilhaber been brought back in in 2016? I guess. But with Jones, Bradley, Bedoya and his job on the line, plus new kids like Williams, Morales, Acosta, and Nagbe; I can see why he didn't circle back to Benny. He did circle back to Klestjan. Arena didn't use Sacha or Benny either. But the great thing about BSI and all these players talking, they rarely bad mouth the coach that gives them their first cap/job, and they don't usually understand why they were cut.
Here is one for the conspiracy theorists! During the Jimmy Conrad interview, he said that when he got called in to the USMNT for the first time, that meant that another team mate on his MLS team stopped getting called. He literally said, "I became the player from SKC that got called". I've seen smart people talk about the idea that USSF treats USMNT call ups like MLB treats the All-Star game. Try and get representation from every team. Makes sense, following the logic, that as MLS has expanded the number of teams, the number of MLS players on USMNT rosters has increased.
The conspiracy could also go the other way. There could be some tacit agreement between US Soccer and MLS that the US won't call up more than a certain number of players from each club unless 1 or more of those players is expected to play a major role on the team. That would also kind of explain the awkwardness between Ike Opara and Bruce Arena where Opara suggests that his call up to the Gold Cup was blocked by his club, and where Arena refused to confirm or deny but subtly indicated Opara was correct.
Is some of that because USSF schedules games on non-FIFA dates. So, if they take players away from teams, they are taking them away when they are actually needed. And taking a whole crop from a single team creates a big disadvantage in league play? I feel like this is something I've heard discussed when people talk about only taking so many players from a team. It still points out a problem, the issues created by scheduling on non-FIFA dates which I have always found to be screwed up, but may not be as much of a quota type thing as that statement would appear in a vacuum.
I still think the biggest red flag is that in every camp between Arena and Berhalter, it was 67% represented by MLS. Is 67% within a range of outcomes? Probably within the high end where the low end is ~20% but to have that sort of ridiculously consistent representation camp after camp (and shitty result after shitty result) is simply mind boggling and cannot be put off to injuries and/or form.
Like whom? Keep in mind, the Allocation Ranking already serves the purpose of ensuring NT players are distributed around the league. Beyond that, this is very easy to research: how often have all MLS teams been represented on a US roster (I would guess never). How often have multiple players been called from a single MLS team? Many times, even if we're just talking about Kansas City / Sporting.
It's not just stars but also the depth players who didn't get a look (ARobinson, Morales, Miazga, Holmes, Horvath, Alvarado, Chandler and Sargent were all excluded for some of 2019 when available) and it's not like MLS players don't get injured either. Like I said, if a couple of camps we had high MLS representation, that's understandable but when it's camp after camp for two coaches, it's not justifiable to say that it's injuries rather than deliberate intent. The usual defense is that these guys aren't major league difference makers and there's truth to that. However, look at the players that Berhalter consistently brought into camp and tell me that he wasn't scraping the bottom of the barrel - we were down 1-0 to Mexico in the Gold Cup and we put in Lovitz. SMH.
I believe Sargent and Morales have been called to 3 straight camps. You could make an argument that Sarge should have been called into The Gold Cup, but on form alone back then Gyasi was playing better. Trapp over Morales in The Gold Cup was probably the wrong choice, but it has since been corrected. Holmes made the Gold Cup team over Djorji, but got hurt. Robinson had a string of poor performances for The NT, and was probably the worst player on the field against Jamaica. It's no surprise he was cut for The Gold Cup. Now I do agree that Robinson deserves another chance on form and since Lovitz has had his fair share of shit performances since The Gold Cup. Let's also not forget Gregg getting Tyler Boyd to file his one time switch right before the Gold Cup and starting him over Jordan Morris at first (while Morris is a far better player). Right now my personal best 23 has the following 14 European players. Pulisic: Called consistently under Bruce and Gregg when healthy Brooks: Called consistently under Bruce and Gregg when healthy Yedlin: Called consistently under Bruce and Gregg when healthy Adams: Hasn't been healthy for Gregg, was with The U20's for Bruce McKennie: Called consistently by Gregg. Bruce said McKennie would have probably made the World Cup team. You could argue that McKennie should have gotten an earlier look from Bruce, but it's understandable why he didn't Reyna: Was going to be called in March, immediately after breaking through at Dortmund Dest: Was called up 2 weeks after his Eredivisie debut. Steffen: Was never going to unseat Howard in the middle of a qualifying campaign under Bruce. He's been a consistent number #1 under Gregg Sargent: Been called to 3 straight camps. You could argue he belonged on The Gold Cup team but as I said above it was by no means a mind boggling omission. Weah: Decided it'd be better to play with The U20's last summer. I could be wrong, but I don't think he's been healthy for a camp since. Morales: Covered him earlier, I do agree Bruce and Gregg (during the Gold Cup) messed up here Robinson: Covered him earlier Miazga: Played in both The 2017 and 2019 Gold Cups. Horvath: Has had troubles with his club situation and has been justifiably left off teams. I don't have Boyd and Holmes in my 23, but I believe Boyd has been called to every camp since filing his switch, and Holmes made The Gold Cup team before injury. I believe Ventura Alvarado and Johnny Cardoso were going to be called into The March friendlies as well
That's not an unreasonable list as it's in line with the general consensus of pundits and BS posters in another thread (39% MLS participation or roughly 8-9 players). However, what has been shown is a consistent makeup of 15-16 MLS players at every camp under Berhalter and Arena at almost EVERY SINGLE CAMP (that I can recall and certainly under Gregg). So by your squad (which again is representative of rationality), it would mean that in almost EVERY SINGLE CAMP, instead of having 8-9 MLS players, there was a constant swap of 6-8 non-MLS players for MLS players so that there was a consistent 15-16 MLS players. If you can justify 6-8 non MLS players being swapped out almost EVERY SINGLE CAMP (and always being replaced by an MLS player) and this is net of any MLS players getting injured or being out of form, well, I think that's torturing the data. I'll again say that it wouldn't be a big deal if it happened at one camp but in almost EVERY SINGLE CAMP? C'mon.
Yeah the number jumps out if you don't put any context behind. Yes my squad is 65% non MLS players, so why was The Gold Cup squad only 26% non MLSers? Well 13% of my squad was hurt (Brooks, Yedlin, and Adams), 8.6% of my squad hadn't made their pro debuts yet (Dest and Reyna), 13% were still fringe players last year (Sargent, Robinson, and Weah), 4.3% of my team hadn't moved yet (Steffen), and 4.3% were and are in club purgatory (Horvath). That covers the 40 point gap I understand it's been 20 months of Gregg Berhalter, but he's only had 5 full team camps. The players that you brought up are Josh Sargent: Called to 4 of them (though missed the final 23 in one) Alfredo Morales; Called to 3 of them Matt Miazga: Called to 4 of them Ethan Horvath: Called to 1 of them Antonee Robinson: Called to 1 of them (though missed the final 23) Duane Holmes: Called to 1 of them (Made the 23, but got hurt) Ventura Alvarado: Likely would have been called for March, Gregg flew down to Mexico to meet with him Chandler: Probably should get another chance, but he has a weird history with The NT He has not been ignoring players
You ignore that every one of these players was replaced with an MLS player and assumed that no MLS players on the squad were injured either. further, why were fringe non-european players excluded from the gold cup yet fringe (and worse) MLS players were called? which camps was Morales invited to? He certainly wasn’t invited to the gold cup. despite the injuries to non-MLS Players the following were not included: - Sargent - Morales (wasn’t even part of the 40 man roster!) - ARobinson - Holmes (was he injured?) - Alvarado - chandler - horvath (a good coach gets talented player time when they get screwed by their club) now, do I think that all of these players had to be there? Nope - but it’s telling that none of them were. You mentioned ARobinson having a bad game (and he did) but so did Lovitz (many times)as did trapp in that same game. It’s simply intentional when at every chance to avoid building non-MLS depth, it’s taken.
Again, if it was one or maybe two camp instead of five where this logistical somersaults are held, that’s fine. Instead, it’s all five camps. The fact that he’s spreading out the 1/3 non MLS representation across every camp yet he’s still given a lesser amount of exposure to non-MLS is actually MORE evidence that he’s managing to some quota, rather than less evidence IMO.
Because most of our fringe players are MLS players, but Gregg did bring Miazga, Ream, Holmes, and Boyd to The Gold Cup. So not "every single' fringe players was an MLS player Again Josh Sargent has made 3 straight camps. Morales was in the September and November games. I was mistaken earlier when I said 3 camps. I thought he was called in October, but he was coming off a hamstring injury. As for Lovitz vs Robinson, I agree it should be Robinson, but Lovitz was fine in the 2019 Camp Cupcake matches, and was primarily coming off the bench in THe Gold Cup (behind Tim Ream). His big shitty performance was against Canada in late 2019, and he was immediately benched the following camp when Dest committed. Again, Holmes made the Gold Cup team over Djorji Mihailovic. He just got hurt Again, Gregg went down to Mexico to visit Alvarado shortly before COVID shut everything down. You keep bringing those players up, when Gregg hasn't ignored any of them
Great, he doesn’t ignore them he just shuffles them into 1/3 of the roster slots. You’ve changed the paradigm from having a consistent 2/3 roster to “he’s not ignoring players”. both arena and Berhalter treat MLS players differently from others and one has to aggressively torture logic to refuse to see it. this is similar to understanding structural biases in our portfolio companies. When we ask why certain classes of customers and/or employees are statistically treated differently, there’s always some rationale on an individual basis. However, when one steps back and sees this pattern repeated across time and different people, it’s not justifiable - it’s bias.
I didn't say that every fringe player was an MLS player, I said that every replacement for a non MLS player who was excluded was effectively an MLS player. That's how one goes from your 40% MLS representation to 67% (by consistently using MLS players to replace injured or ignored non-MLS players).
Your smoking gun is that those players haven't gotten chances, when they have. No right now my best 23 is 14 Non MLSers. Sadly we're not playing right now. A year ago my roster would have had less especially with injuries. 5 camps is not any sort of good sample size.
Yeah that'll happen. Here's a thought exercise. Take every position on the field and write down who you think the 3rd and 4th best player in our pool is. You'll list a ton of MLS players. Hell just go to ASNs top 100 and look at the middle and bottom of that list and see how MLS heavy it is. When a European player gets hurt, an MLS guy is likely going to be the best replacement
So, at the end of the day, you think it's normal for there to be 67% MLS representation across all of Arena's and Berhalter's camps with little to no variation? We've also already heard straight from the horse's mouth that Arena was going to favor MLS (and then he did exactly that to disastrous consequences). Note: it's not just 5 camps, it's the entirety of Arena's second term and now all of Berhalter's. Note 2: we've already seen that there were better replacements from Europe that were excluded in the Gold Cup. If we do the same for other camps, we'll see a pattern of him always looking to MLS instead of equal-to-or-better options as replacements. If it makes you feel better, you can say that he doesn't ignore non-MLS players, he just treats them differently than his preference for MLS ones so that they are competing for a smaller number of spots.
No. My smoking gun is that there's five camps under Berhalter and more under Arena where there's been an amazingly consistent 67% MLS representation. Our pool isn't 67% MLS even. ASN: Top 8: 0 MLS players (0%) Top 10: 2 MLS players (20%) Top 20: 7 MLS players (35%) Top 30: 14 MLS (47%) Top 40: 20 MLS (50%) Top 50: 25 MLS (50%) If players outside of MLS get booted from the team for poor performance while similar poor performances for MLS get ignored (Trapp, Bradley, Roldan, Baird, Lovitz, Milo, Lewis, etc.), it's bias. Full stop. It's silly to say "well, they got chances"
I think it is more that many of the depth European players have not had real chances or very limited chances. Holmes, was not called in September or October or November even though he made the Gold Cup roster after his one limited chance. Robinson, was not called up in September, October, or November at a time he was playing well enough to be bought by AC Milan for $10 million. CCV had one special camp and one cap. Not called at all in September, October, or November. Green was never called after playing pretty well for the NT in 2018. Miazga started the Gold Cup Final and against Cuba in the first NL game but then didn't start the actual important NL game and was not called again. Many older players have not been called at all either; even though many older MLS players have been featured repeatedly. And that is what it comes down to, there was a group of several MLS players that got called over and over and played over and over, no matter how poorly they performed. We all know the names. It doesn't necessarily point to some USSF/SUM/MLS conspiracy, but it does point to something. Arguing it didn't happen or that Roldan, Trapp, and Lovitz deserved to be in almost every camp and start after June, while Holmes, Robinson, and others got one half chance, is not helpful. I think Gregg was doing some grand experiment that failed and wasted a year and the failure is now compounded by the fact the virus has wasted another year. Again, arguing that Lovitz should have started against Cuba in our last competitive game, in November, and Robinson is not even called is farcical. That same night, Lovitz was offloaded for $50,000. The next month, Robinson was bought by a Serie A team for $10,000,000. Sargent should have been at the Gold Cup. That was a mistake. Full stop. Come up with a reason, but don't say something wasn't going on. DHC1 has a reason that fits the facts. It is circumstantial, but it isn't ignoring the facts.