British Football Best XIs (1863-1939)

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by CristianoPuskas, Jan 29, 2023.

  1. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    by the way, that Silvio Piola account made the thread with me.

    Some think Sárosi was better player than Orth, but they have a little knowledge of Orth career or rarely had a chance to witness Orth's play in his prime. Notable names like Bela Guttman, Marton Bukovi, Sandor Barcs, think Orth is the greatest of all time, even after Pele, Di Stefano, and Maradona era.

    see this thread for further explanation
     
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  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    This one is a particularly interesting quote I think, as it gives some sort of guide as to how he played and what attributes he had, using more 'known'/seen players
    CP on Twitter: ""Florian Albert's technical skills. Charlton's combination skills. Eusebio's explosiveness, shooting skills. Orth is all in one. He can only be neutralized with rudeness." - 1968 - György Molnár , one of the best player in MTK history https://t.co/YtSccBh9AK" / Twitter
    "Florian Albert's technical skills. Charlton's combination skills. Eusebio's explosiveness, shooting skills. Orth is all in one. He can only be neutralized with rudeness." - 1968

    It's interesting maybe that MTK's stadium is named after Nandor Hidegkuti rather than Orth, but I guess partly that can be to do with the age of those who would have made that decision, and the era they remembered themselves or perhaps would be told about by people one/two generations older than them (as well as maybe that Hidegkuti was a key part in a great Hungary national team)
    Hidegkuti Nándor Stadion - Wikipedia

    Of course, often people closely associated with a player can make bold claims, but nevertheless when they are convinced a player is so good it is likely to have some strong basis. This Bill Shankly quote about Tom Finney is maybe a good example:
    Sir Tom Finney - One of football's all-time greats - LFChistory - Stats galore for Liverpool FC!
    "Pele was a great player. He must rank one of the best of all time.
    I've said that Tommy Finney was the best I've seen and I'd bracket
    Pele, Eusebio, Cruyff, Di Stefano and Puskas up there with him." - Bill Shankly


     
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  3. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    BL_0001752_19650711_340_0031_page-0001 (2) (1).jpg
    GREATEST PLAYERS OF ALL TIME
    Sunday Mail (Glasgow) - (11/07/1965)

    Name your greatest player - and score a fiver. I asked last week. Well, you certainly did! The response has been fantastic - Patsy Gallacher, Willie Waddell, Pelé, Sir Stanley Matthews, Jimmy Mason, Alex James, Jimmy McGrory, Jimmy Delaney, you name them, there's a letter about them. A pity we couldn't print them all - but here's the selection I liked the best...

    -----------------------

    "For me the greatest player was Charlie Tully"
    P. Brannan

    "I am a Rangers supporter, but I must admit the greatest player I have ever seen was Patsy Gallacher of Celtic - the whole seven stone of him.
    They talk about Puskas, Pelé, Di Stefano, and Denis Law, but I still say the Mighty Atom was the greatest"
    J. Gillespie

    [​IMG]

    "Peter McKennan is his name"
    Alex Douglas

    "He was no other than Willie Waddell. The Deedle was the greatest"
    Donald Canera

    "I used to dodge the Rangers games and nip to Parkhead - just to see Jimmy McGrory score a goal with his head"
    David Stevenson

    "One man stands out in my mind...the late, great, John White"
    R. Wylie

    "It's Gordon Smith for me"
    J. P. Ramsay

    "My vote for the greatest goes to the Russian goalkeeper Yashin. He's truly the greatest"
    W. Barbour

    "I Wish Denis Law had seen Alex James playing. He would have seen a fellow-Scot who had everything that Di Stefano has, and more.
    He was the idol of London and the perfect footballer"
    A. C. Pole

    [​IMG]

    "Stanley Matthews"
    A. Dougall

    "I'm now 81 and the greatest player I can ever remember was Bobby Walker.
    A true prince of football"
    William McLuckie

    [​IMG]

    "I have seen all the greats since 1950 and have still to see one greater than the man himself - Denis Law"
    J. McGeaghy

    "My choice is John Charles"
    Alex McInnes

    "None other than the modest maestro, Jimmy Mason"
    S. Turnbull

    "I give top place to Denis Law himself. As the master of football he comes second to none"
    Sandy Jackson

    "The late John White was the greatest player I have ever known"
    George Dunbar

    "I haven't seen many football matches but from the games I have seen I think wee Willie Henderson is the finest player"
    Matthew Allan




     
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  4. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021


    another interesting one.
     
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  5. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    A good illustration of how subjective these exercises can be.

    This is a Scottish newspaper. Of the 17 players nominated here as greatest ever, eleven are Scottish and two more are Irishmen who played for Celtic. There is only one English name: Matthews.
     
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  6. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    some interesting articles about great players of that period :

    Segonzac, 1937: If the British Empire faced a selection of Europe
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=393

    29/01/1929: James Catton interviews G. O. Smith
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=415

    Meredith, 1934: Some versatile footballers
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=535

    J. Crabtree: Greatest game I ever played in
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=540

    27/05/1929: Brum interviews Dennis Hodgetts
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=546

    29/07/1929: Onward interviews James Mason
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=549

    21/07/1929: Brum interviews Howard Spencer
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=551

    Wooldridge, 1910: Half-back developments
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=555

    14/07/1930: Brum interviews Howard Spencer
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=556

    Meredith, 1909: The game of my life
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=564

    Ernest Needham's story IX.
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=574

    Ernest Needham's story XI.
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=575

    Gallacher, 1932: My ideal forward line
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=582

    Meredith, 1934: Alan Morton — "Little Blue Devil"
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=595

    18/03/1929: Ivan Sharpe interviews Steve Bloomer
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=634

    A. J. B., 1913: The most accomplished player
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=635

    1932: Sir Charles Clegg and some interesting topics
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=641

    James Catton, 1924: Great England-Scotland matches
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=794

    James Catton, 1924: The best team of all time
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=796

    James Cowan, 1912: Some memories
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=1391

    EDIT : there are still many interesting ones that I haven't mentioned. All public articles can be seen in arfsh.com/select
     
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  7. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    WhatsApp Image 2023-02-05 at 19.24.28.jpeg

    Steve Bloomer - 1912 :

    It has been my lot to play with or against the best players of my time, and without hesitation I say that the greatest player I ever played with was Howard Spencer, the greatest right back of his period. The finest man I have played against was Dan Doyle, the old Celtic back, while the greatest player I have ever seen in my career is Bobby Walker. Then there never was a half-back to touch Ernest Needham - I have played against him and with him many a time, and so ought to know-while as a right half I should give Frank Forman the palm. He was better on the wing than at centre, and I say this with all respect to my dear old pal Ben Warren.
    The finest centre forward that ever was is G. O. Smith

    -------------------------

    Interesting that Bloomer pick the Scotman as the greatest plater he ever seen! - to think that he has shared pitch together with some great players like Crabtree, Needham, G. O. Smith, Goodall, Meredith, etc.

     
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  8. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    IMG_20230207_124251.jpg

    Elisha Scott - (20/10/1935)

    Sam Hardy

    Bob Crompton
    Jesse Pennington

    Andy Ducat
    Frank Barson
    Arthur Grimsdell

    Billy Meredith
    Charlie Buchan
    Harry Hampton
    Billy Walker
    Alan Morton
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
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  10. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    WhatsApp Image 2023-02-07 at 15.41.27.jpeg WhatsApp Image 2023-02-07 at 15.42.46.jpeg
    WhatsApp Image 2023-02-07 at 15.44.05.jpeg

    Raich Carter - Team of All Talents - 1959

    - First Team -

    Harry Hibbs

    Johnny Carey
    Eddie Hapgood

    Cliff Britton
    Stan Cullis
    Joe Mercer

    Stanley Matthews
    Wilf Mannion
    Hughie Gallacher
    Alex James
    Cliff Bastin

    - Second Team -

    Elisha Scott

    Warney Cresswell
    Sam Barkas

    Willis Edwards
    John Charles
    Wilf Copping

    Tom Finney
    David Jack
    Tommy Lawton
    Peter Doherty
    Jimmy Duncan (?)
     
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  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Nice work mate! I think it is 1957 actually isn't it (on the second of the pages that my search found), but that doesn't affect much I guess anyway (John Charles had a couple more notable years between 1957 and 1959 I suppose, but playing abroad anyway).

    Carter says himself he is excluding some older players he didn't get to assess first hand himself, from consideration, of course.
     
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  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    This article could be interesting I think, as it labels Meazza as Italy's Alec(Alex) James
    Results for 'meazza alec james' | Between 1st Jan 1930 and 31st Dec 1939 | British Newspaper Archive

    Maybe these too re: Sarosi, but I'm not sure if there will be any comparisons to current/former British players
    Results for 'sarosi bastin' | Between 1st Jan 1930 and 31st Dec 1939 | British Newspaper Archive
    The report on this page is a striking one because of the disconnect between the scoreline and the write-up (and a reference to English teams having played better football quality wise in the 'old days' indeed, maybe alluding to as far back as the GO Smith, Vivian Woodward times (hard to know I suppose)?
    England Match No. 207 - Hungary - 2 December 1936 - Match Summary and Report (englandfootballonline.com)

    An interesting 'all-time XI' would be from Jimmy Hogan I guess (he might be able to go back quite far for English/Scottish players as well as compare older Hungarians to relatively newer ones of the 1950s etc), but I can't find anything

    This might be an interesting book - not sure whether you read it already @comme or not?
    Soccer The World Game: A Popular History: Amazon.co.uk: Geoffrey Green: Books
    Green stated covering football in the 1930s apparently. His all-time XI from 1981 was basically all 1950s/1960s players though, as shown here
    Placar greatest footballers (1981 & 1999) | BigSoccer Forum
    Yashin, Victor Rodriguez Andrade, Charles, Nilton Santos; Bozsik, Ocwirk; Pele, Puskas; Matthews, Di Stefano, Best (I wrote it as a WM here but it's shown in 2-3-5, though not intended as such by him I guess as that template was still commonly used to display line-ups back in his times even when the formation wasn't used - clearly Bozsik and Ocwirk are WM style wing-half midfielders anyway; it's possible it's more the WW that is intended though I guess with Di Stefano in the Hidegkuti-esque 'centre forward' position - what seems interesting in general on that is that things went back and forth a bit between centre forwards being more striker-like and more playmaker-like, starting with the transition from the Tinsley Lindley type to a GO Smith type for example, then Dixie Dean types coming into vogue in that position, in Britain/England at least after the WM introduction, and Italy playing the Metodo with Piola for example as more of a striker at CF albeit a mobile one, then the Hidegkuti/Di Stefano 'centre forwards' later again - the playmaker who arrives as goalscorer in the box too).
     
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  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I kind of randomly found this article from 1899 (that was in the Lancashire Evening Post) that is more about Archie Goodall, but includes a comment "Looking through the list of outstanding centre-forwards, the impartial critic, if he be a competent man with a clear knowledge of his subject, will be obliged to acknowledge Honest John equal, if not superior, to masters like Tinsley Lindley, Southworth, and Gilbert Oswald Smith. And it is a pleasure to place John Goodall on the topmost pedestal." about John Goodall
    Famous men in football, No. 8: Archie Goodall – "Play Up, Liverpool" (playupliverpool.com)
     
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  14. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    It's a paragraph heading. There's only a few lines about him.

    Meazza, to Italy, is as Alec James to Arsenal. He gave a fine display at inside-right, his ball control being excellent, and his passes judicious to a degree. He was generally the source of the attacking movements.
     
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  15. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Yes, I've got that.
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Ok, thanks for letting us know (I did think I spotted you'd made a reference to it before). I don't know whether there is much descriptive comment about 1930s stars in it (British and/or foreign)?
     
  17. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    I think it was widely accepted that English football, before the WWI. played artistic and dynamic football, therefore the players in general, were required of extra-class ball mastery and tactical knowledge... Whereas after WWI. the game was more "kick and rush", with the physical qualities were above all characteristic.

    https://arfsh.com/article?id=234
    Hugo Meisl : "We in Austria, cannot call upon anything like the same number of physically developed players, and we therefore have to cultivate our own game. The game which play is an English game, but pre-war English game, something like that which Corinthians used to play, a clever game in which we expose our men to open play"
     
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  18. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    The left winger on the second team was probably Dally Duncan
     
  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #94 PDG1978, Feb 9, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2023
    He is another team-mate of Carter's, like the right winger Sammy Crooks too, then.

    I saw he was mentioned in this article at the end of the century, by David Lacey (who was born in the 1930s so comments about before that are 'handed down' to him perhaps, although he could have researched some old articles himself of course in theory):
    The greatest teams of the century | Football | The Guardian

    Lacey did make an All-Time XI in 1981 as shown on the Placar thread I linked before, in which his choices varied a bit compared to those he went with 18 years later (as shown in the link above), although then he was splitting things up anyway so that could have something to do with that, to an extent, as well as the 18 year gap bringing more candidates into it (2 out of 3 changes in defence affected by this, while elsewhere it could be the different formation set-ups moreso).
     
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  20. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    Great Players Debate.jpg

    Great Debate about Best Player, probably in 1955, as soon as Matthews made his 44th caps

    "My best ever forward is Bobby Walker. He was better than Buchan or James - and I'm not a Scotsman"
    J. Thomas

    "(Charlie) Buchan was the finest inside-forward"
    W. J. Mils

    "The prize goes not to Matthews, but to the incomparable Jimmy Dimmock...I've seen them all in the past 25 years, and Dimmock was the supreme master"
    N. D. Cummings

    "Matthews was never the best ever, Eric Brook was"
    F. Dale

    "I thought the best wingers of them all was (Bobby) Templeton"
    G. E. Davies

    "There is only one "best ever" - Alex James"
    G. S. Prevost

    "Alan Morton (the best wingers)"
    E. Fearnley

    "(probably he means that Billy Meredith was better than Stanley Matthews?)"
    L. G. King

    "Matthews the best ever? Of course he is!"
    F. Bruce

    "I have yet to see an equal to (Jimmy) Dimmock as winger. Andy Wilson said that he was the greatest player he ever saw"
    E. Stumbker
     
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  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Nice find mate - I think GE Davies does pick Matthews over Templeton though if I read it correctly ("until I saw Matthews" implies it I think - I'm not sure whether it implies Templeton is still second for him or what he would think of Finney, who came after Matthews in chronological order, compared to Templeton for example, but it looks like he's the only one on that page saying he thinks Matthews is the best winger - he doesn't necessarily talk about who has been the best player though, although perhaps he's kind of implying Matthews for that too).

    Interesting that nobody talks about a foreign player, even in 1955. I guess the question was not set to be specifically about British players anyway....
     
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  22. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    local fans opinion are not reliable enough, as they did not have many chances to went abroad like coaches, journalists, players.....
     
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  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    True, yes. Perhaps some could see Hungary vs England on TV for example though, so I wouldn't have been surprised to see some mentions for players such as Puskas perhaps in theory.
     
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  24. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    Untitled XI.png
    Unknown - (22/04/1911)

    Leigh Richmond Roose

    Howard Spencer
    John Forbes

    Colin Veitch
    John Holt
    Ernest Needham

    Billy Meredith
    Steve Bloomer
    Jimmy Quinn
    Edgar Chadwick
    Bobby Templeton

    "Colin Veitch the greatest all-round player"
     
  25. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    Roberts XI.png

    Morgan T. Roberts - (30/11/1908)

    Jack Robinson / James McAulay

    Walter Arnott
    Nick Ross

    Jimmy Crabtree
    George Haworth
    Ernest Needham

    Billy Meredith
    Steve Bloomer
    George Kerr
    William Nevill Cobbold
    Fred Spiksley

    "Bloomer, the finest individual player he has ever seen"

    "Cobbold, most magnificent individual effort in the course of a match"

    "the game has increased in efficiency by leaps and bounds the ability of players is far inferior to that of 15 or 20 years ago"
     

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