by the way, that Silvio Piola account made the thread with me. Some think Sárosi was better player than Orth, but they have a little knowledge of Orth career or rarely had a chance to witness Orth's play in his prime. Notable names like Bela Guttman, Marton Bukovi, Sandor Barcs, think Orth is the greatest of all time, even after Pele, Di Stefano, and Maradona era. see this thread for further explanation Quotes on György Orth 🇭🇺 - The Most Complete and The Greatest of All Time will be regularly updated. pic.twitter.com/AhpXIBu88J— Fußballkönig (@GyurkaSarosi) June 29, 2022
This one is a particularly interesting quote I think, as it gives some sort of guide as to how he played and what attributes he had, using more 'known'/seen players CP on Twitter: ""Florian Albert's technical skills. Charlton's combination skills. Eusebio's explosiveness, shooting skills. Orth is all in one. He can only be neutralized with rudeness." - 1968 - György Molnár , one of the best player in MTK history https://t.co/YtSccBh9AK" / Twitter "Florian Albert's technical skills. Charlton's combination skills. Eusebio's explosiveness, shooting skills. Orth is all in one. He can only be neutralized with rudeness." - 1968 It's interesting maybe that MTK's stadium is named after Nandor Hidegkuti rather than Orth, but I guess partly that can be to do with the age of those who would have made that decision, and the era they remembered themselves or perhaps would be told about by people one/two generations older than them (as well as maybe that Hidegkuti was a key part in a great Hungary national team) Hidegkuti Nándor Stadion - Wikipedia Of course, often people closely associated with a player can make bold claims, but nevertheless when they are convinced a player is so good it is likely to have some strong basis. This Bill Shankly quote about Tom Finney is maybe a good example: Sir Tom Finney - One of football's all-time greats - LFChistory - Stats galore for Liverpool FC! "Pele was a great player. He must rank one of the best of all time. I've said that Tommy Finney was the best I've seen and I'd bracket Pele, Eusebio, Cruyff, Di Stefano and Puskas up there with him." - Bill Shankly
GREATEST PLAYERS OF ALL TIME Sunday Mail (Glasgow) - (11/07/1965) Name your greatest player - and score a fiver. I asked last week. Well, you certainly did! The response has been fantastic - Patsy Gallacher, Willie Waddell, Pelé, Sir Stanley Matthews, Jimmy Mason, Alex James, Jimmy McGrory, Jimmy Delaney, you name them, there's a letter about them. A pity we couldn't print them all - but here's the selection I liked the best... ----------------------- "For me the greatest player was Charlie Tully" P. Brannan "I am a Rangers supporter, but I must admit the greatest player I have ever seen was Patsy Gallacher of Celtic - the whole seven stone of him. They talk about Puskas, Pelé, Di Stefano, and Denis Law, but I still say the Mighty Atom was the greatest" J. Gillespie "Peter McKennan is his name" Alex Douglas "He was no other than Willie Waddell. The Deedle was the greatest" Donald Canera "I used to dodge the Rangers games and nip to Parkhead - just to see Jimmy McGrory score a goal with his head" David Stevenson "One man stands out in my mind...the late, great, John White" R. Wylie "It's Gordon Smith for me" J. P. Ramsay "My vote for the greatest goes to the Russian goalkeeper Yashin. He's truly the greatest" W. Barbour "I Wish Denis Law had seen Alex James playing. He would have seen a fellow-Scot who had everything that Di Stefano has, and more. He was the idol of London and the perfect footballer" A. C. Pole "Stanley Matthews" A. Dougall "I'm now 81 and the greatest player I can ever remember was Bobby Walker. A true prince of football" William McLuckie "I have seen all the greats since 1950 and have still to see one greater than the man himself - Denis Law" J. McGeaghy "My choice is John Charles" Alex McInnes "None other than the modest maestro, Jimmy Mason" S. Turnbull "I give top place to Denis Law himself. As the master of football he comes second to none" Sandy Jackson "The late John White was the greatest player I have ever known" George Dunbar "I haven't seen many football matches but from the games I have seen I think wee Willie Henderson is the finest player" Matthew Allan
"He knew everything about football. He combined DI STEFANO's work ethic, SUAREZ's breakthrough power, KOPA's ingenuity, DIDI's tactical sense, HAYNES' momentum, PELE's dribbling skills and long-range bombing power, SIVORI's versatility, GARRINCHA's unrecognizable presence" pic.twitter.com/2XexfYo8aR— Fußballkönig (@GyurkaSarosi) July 8, 2022 another interesting one.
A good illustration of how subjective these exercises can be. This is a Scottish newspaper. Of the 17 players nominated here as greatest ever, eleven are Scottish and two more are Irishmen who played for Celtic. There is only one English name: Matthews.
some interesting articles about great players of that period : Segonzac, 1937: If the British Empire faced a selection of Europe https://arfsh.com/article?id=393 29/01/1929: James Catton interviews G. O. Smith https://arfsh.com/article?id=415 Meredith, 1934: Some versatile footballers https://arfsh.com/article?id=535 J. Crabtree: Greatest game I ever played in https://arfsh.com/article?id=540 27/05/1929: Brum interviews Dennis Hodgetts https://arfsh.com/article?id=546 29/07/1929: Onward interviews James Mason https://arfsh.com/article?id=549 21/07/1929: Brum interviews Howard Spencer https://arfsh.com/article?id=551 Wooldridge, 1910: Half-back developments https://arfsh.com/article?id=555 14/07/1930: Brum interviews Howard Spencer https://arfsh.com/article?id=556 Meredith, 1909: The game of my life https://arfsh.com/article?id=564 Ernest Needham's story IX. https://arfsh.com/article?id=574 Ernest Needham's story XI. https://arfsh.com/article?id=575 Gallacher, 1932: My ideal forward line https://arfsh.com/article?id=582 Meredith, 1934: Alan Morton — "Little Blue Devil" https://arfsh.com/article?id=595 18/03/1929: Ivan Sharpe interviews Steve Bloomer https://arfsh.com/article?id=634 A. J. B., 1913: The most accomplished player https://arfsh.com/article?id=635 1932: Sir Charles Clegg and some interesting topics https://arfsh.com/article?id=641 James Catton, 1924: Great England-Scotland matches https://arfsh.com/article?id=794 James Catton, 1924: The best team of all time https://arfsh.com/article?id=796 James Cowan, 1912: Some memories https://arfsh.com/article?id=1391 EDIT : there are still many interesting ones that I haven't mentioned. All public articles can be seen in arfsh.com/select
Steve Bloomer - 1912 : It has been my lot to play with or against the best players of my time, and without hesitation I say that the greatest player I ever played with was Howard Spencer, the greatest right back of his period. The finest man I have played against was Dan Doyle, the old Celtic back, while the greatest player I have ever seen in my career is Bobby Walker. Then there never was a half-back to touch Ernest Needham - I have played against him and with him many a time, and so ought to know-while as a right half I should give Frank Forman the palm. He was better on the wing than at centre, and I say this with all respect to my dear old pal Ben Warren. The finest centre forward that ever was is G. O. Smith ------------------------- Interesting that Bloomer pick the Scotman as the greatest plater he ever seen! - to think that he has shared pitch together with some great players like Crabtree, Needham, G. O. Smith, Goodall, Meredith, etc.
Elisha Scott - (20/10/1935) Sam Hardy Bob Crompton Jesse Pennington Andy Ducat Frank Barson Arthur Grimsdell Billy Meredith Charlie Buchan Harry Hampton Billy Walker Alan Morton
I wonder whether the second result on this page might be interesting, as it seems likely to be a rundown of all-time XI candidates, within the British or English game perhaps: Results for '+alex +james +tom +finney +cliff +bastin +matthews' | Between 1st Jan 1950 and 31st Dec 1959 | British Newspaper Archive
Raich Carter - Team of All Talents - 1959 - First Team - Harry Hibbs Johnny Carey Eddie Hapgood Cliff Britton Stan Cullis Joe Mercer Stanley Matthews Wilf Mannion Hughie Gallacher Alex James Cliff Bastin - Second Team - Elisha Scott Warney Cresswell Sam Barkas Willis Edwards John Charles Wilf Copping Tom Finney David Jack Tommy Lawton Peter Doherty Jimmy Duncan (?)
Nice work mate! I think it is 1957 actually isn't it (on the second of the pages that my search found), but that doesn't affect much I guess anyway (John Charles had a couple more notable years between 1957 and 1959 I suppose, but playing abroad anyway). Carter says himself he is excluding some older players he didn't get to assess first hand himself, from consideration, of course.
This article could be interesting I think, as it labels Meazza as Italy's Alec(Alex) James Results for 'meazza alec james' | Between 1st Jan 1930 and 31st Dec 1939 | British Newspaper Archive Maybe these too re: Sarosi, but I'm not sure if there will be any comparisons to current/former British players Results for 'sarosi bastin' | Between 1st Jan 1930 and 31st Dec 1939 | British Newspaper Archive The report on this page is a striking one because of the disconnect between the scoreline and the write-up (and a reference to English teams having played better football quality wise in the 'old days' indeed, maybe alluding to as far back as the GO Smith, Vivian Woodward times (hard to know I suppose)? England Match No. 207 - Hungary - 2 December 1936 - Match Summary and Report (englandfootballonline.com) An interesting 'all-time XI' would be from Jimmy Hogan I guess (he might be able to go back quite far for English/Scottish players as well as compare older Hungarians to relatively newer ones of the 1950s etc), but I can't find anything This might be an interesting book - not sure whether you read it already @comme or not? Soccer The World Game: A Popular History: Amazon.co.uk: Geoffrey Green: Books Green stated covering football in the 1930s apparently. His all-time XI from 1981 was basically all 1950s/1960s players though, as shown here Placar greatest footballers (1981 & 1999) | BigSoccer Forum Yashin, Victor Rodriguez Andrade, Charles, Nilton Santos; Bozsik, Ocwirk; Pele, Puskas; Matthews, Di Stefano, Best (I wrote it as a WM here but it's shown in 2-3-5, though not intended as such by him I guess as that template was still commonly used to display line-ups back in his times even when the formation wasn't used - clearly Bozsik and Ocwirk are WM style wing-half midfielders anyway; it's possible it's more the WW that is intended though I guess with Di Stefano in the Hidegkuti-esque 'centre forward' position - what seems interesting in general on that is that things went back and forth a bit between centre forwards being more striker-like and more playmaker-like, starting with the transition from the Tinsley Lindley type to a GO Smith type for example, then Dixie Dean types coming into vogue in that position, in Britain/England at least after the WM introduction, and Italy playing the Metodo with Piola for example as more of a striker at CF albeit a mobile one, then the Hidegkuti/Di Stefano 'centre forwards' later again - the playmaker who arrives as goalscorer in the box too).
I kind of randomly found this article from 1899 (that was in the Lancashire Evening Post) that is more about Archie Goodall, but includes a comment "Looking through the list of outstanding centre-forwards, the impartial critic, if he be a competent man with a clear knowledge of his subject, will be obliged to acknowledge Honest John equal, if not superior, to masters like Tinsley Lindley, Southworth, and Gilbert Oswald Smith. And it is a pleasure to place John Goodall on the topmost pedestal." about John Goodall Famous men in football, No. 8: Archie Goodall – "Play Up, Liverpool" (playupliverpool.com)
It's a paragraph heading. There's only a few lines about him. Meazza, to Italy, is as Alec James to Arsenal. He gave a fine display at inside-right, his ball control being excellent, and his passes judicious to a degree. He was generally the source of the attacking movements.
Ok, thanks for letting us know (I did think I spotted you'd made a reference to it before). I don't know whether there is much descriptive comment about 1930s stars in it (British and/or foreign)?
I think it was widely accepted that English football, before the WWI. played artistic and dynamic football, therefore the players in general, were required of extra-class ball mastery and tactical knowledge... Whereas after WWI. the game was more "kick and rush", with the physical qualities were above all characteristic. https://arfsh.com/article?id=234 Hugo Meisl : "We in Austria, cannot call upon anything like the same number of physically developed players, and we therefore have to cultivate our own game. The game which play is an English game, but pre-war English game, something like that which Corinthians used to play, a clever game in which we expose our men to open play"
He is another team-mate of Carter's, like the right winger Sammy Crooks too, then. I saw he was mentioned in this article at the end of the century, by David Lacey (who was born in the 1930s so comments about before that are 'handed down' to him perhaps, although he could have researched some old articles himself of course in theory): The greatest teams of the century | Football | The Guardian Lacey did make an All-Time XI in 1981 as shown on the Placar thread I linked before, in which his choices varied a bit compared to those he went with 18 years later (as shown in the link above), although then he was splitting things up anyway so that could have something to do with that, to an extent, as well as the 18 year gap bringing more candidates into it (2 out of 3 changes in defence affected by this, while elsewhere it could be the different formation set-ups moreso).
Great Debate about Best Player, probably in 1955, as soon as Matthews made his 44th caps "My best ever forward is Bobby Walker. He was better than Buchan or James - and I'm not a Scotsman" J. Thomas "(Charlie) Buchan was the finest inside-forward" W. J. Mils "The prize goes not to Matthews, but to the incomparable Jimmy Dimmock...I've seen them all in the past 25 years, and Dimmock was the supreme master" N. D. Cummings "Matthews was never the best ever, Eric Brook was" F. Dale "I thought the best wingers of them all was (Bobby) Templeton" G. E. Davies "There is only one "best ever" - Alex James" G. S. Prevost "Alan Morton (the best wingers)" E. Fearnley "(probably he means that Billy Meredith was better than Stanley Matthews?)" L. G. King "Matthews the best ever? Of course he is!" F. Bruce "I have yet to see an equal to (Jimmy) Dimmock as winger. Andy Wilson said that he was the greatest player he ever saw" E. Stumbker
Nice find mate - I think GE Davies does pick Matthews over Templeton though if I read it correctly ("until I saw Matthews" implies it I think - I'm not sure whether it implies Templeton is still second for him or what he would think of Finney, who came after Matthews in chronological order, compared to Templeton for example, but it looks like he's the only one on that page saying he thinks Matthews is the best winger - he doesn't necessarily talk about who has been the best player though, although perhaps he's kind of implying Matthews for that too). Interesting that nobody talks about a foreign player, even in 1955. I guess the question was not set to be specifically about British players anyway....
local fans opinion are not reliable enough, as they did not have many chances to went abroad like coaches, journalists, players.....
True, yes. Perhaps some could see Hungary vs England on TV for example though, so I wouldn't have been surprised to see some mentions for players such as Puskas perhaps in theory.
Unknown - (22/04/1911) Leigh Richmond Roose Howard Spencer John Forbes Colin Veitch John Holt Ernest Needham Billy Meredith Steve Bloomer Jimmy Quinn Edgar Chadwick Bobby Templeton "Colin Veitch the greatest all-round player"
Morgan T. Roberts - (30/11/1908) Jack Robinson / James McAulay Walter Arnott Nick Ross Jimmy Crabtree George Haworth Ernest Needham Billy Meredith Steve Bloomer George Kerr William Nevill Cobbold Fred Spiksley "Bloomer, the finest individual player he has ever seen" "Cobbold, most magnificent individual effort in the course of a match" "the game has increased in efficiency by leaps and bounds the ability of players is far inferior to that of 15 or 20 years ago"