Brasil all-time draft - Discussion Thread 3

If I had to chose a starting XI and subs for Brasil today, it would be this (highlight):

--------------------Dida---------------------
-----------Juan-----------Lucio--------------
Cafu--------------------------------R.Carlos-
------------------------G.Silva--------------
----------Edmilson---------------------------
---------------------------------------------
--------------------Alex---------------------
---Kaka-------------------------------------
-------------------------------Ronaldinho---
----------------Ronaldo---------------------

Subs: Julio Cesar, Gomes, Rivaldo, Juninho P., Robinho, Adriano, Ze Roberto, Cicinho, Luisao, Alex (PSV), Emerson, (Renato, Nilmar or Fred -- not sure).

 

Otherwise it would be obvious who the invisible one is. The only reason I'm hiding it is because some people may not yet know the result.

I have said time and time again that the present team deserves to start. I still believe that... even with Emerson instead of the invisible one, unless the latter's form stays as spectacular as it has been... in which case his substitution could be effected without altering the current tactics.

I also think that there are better options than Ze Roberto, who's running game clearly outstrips his passing ability... and we already have someone to run with the ball in Kaka.

I don't think that my formation is more defensive at all, because Alex likes to approximate himself to the strikers... so on a wing attack, he'd run forward and hover on the edge of the area allowing mid range strikes and tabelas with Ronaldo. He'd also play the role of a pivot, articulating and inverting the plays as well as holding the ball to allow the wingers to get forward.

Similarly, you could instruct Kaka or Ronaldinho to occasionally cut inside when their counterpart goes to the goal line on a flank attack, or assume Alex's position as he runs even more forward to head in a cross. I love it because it has so many potential plays and is unpredictable. The other thing I like about this formation is that it is less dependent on our laterais, allowing their runs forward to be less frequent, and since you have two volantes, one can cover the space that is left in such a case. I also feel that it gives us tons of tactical options that require few or no substitutions: for example: if we are winning the game by two clear goals, Ronaldinho and Kaka can play a bit deeper, and it becomes a counterattacking 4-5-1, where Ronaldo places himself forward as a target man, and either Ronaldinho or Kaka can run onto through passes from Alex... all while maintaining posse de bola in the midfield.

If you want to change, you pull Alex off, put Adriano on, and you have the present 4-4-2. If Kaka or Ronaldinho are having a bad day, you can put on Robinho for either... if Alex isn't at his best, Juninho is there. Same goes for Emerson as a sub for the invisible one. In a moment of pure desperation, you can pull off Edmilson and put on either Rivaldo or Adriano, and you have an all-out 4-2-4. But the main reason I am fond of this 4-3-3 is that I think it maximizes the talent on the field while simultaneously being balanced.

Chemistry is very important. If you have an established group that has acheived a lot, all of its members deserve a good look. On the other hand, it is also possible to draw reasonable conclusions based on playing styles and atributes.

 

I like Ze Roberto, but I'd rather see him as a frequently used sub than a starter. He works very hard, and he gets credit for that, but I'd prefer a player with more passing ability... he tends to hold the ball too much. I disagree that this is a good thing. You can hold the ball by literally holding it or by not making wrong passes. In the latter, the ball is kept in constant motion and causes offensive opportunities to present themselves. There is a time to run with the ball, but there is more frequently occasion to make the ball run for you. Constant off the ball runs are good, but running with the ball every time can be particularly costly if you lose possesion at the wrong moment. I'd love to see his tireless energy in the second half when a game is starting to seem bogged down and slow.

Gilberto Silva would be replacing Emerson, and Edmilson would be the one taking Ze's place. I have said it before, I don't think the ideal person for this position is Edmilson. To me, the player that should be there is Kleberson, at least an in form Kleberson... in the last WC he was vital. He can defend, he is very fast, he works hard, and he has a wide range of passes at his disposal (plus he's a mid range threat on goal). Unfortunately, his Man Utd. stay killed his career. A real shame.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this being a more defensive. Sure, you lose a centerforward, but you gain two wingers and a central attacking midfielder that has more vision, tactical awareness, and passing ability than perhaps anyone in the world. Now you have two geniuses running the offense, rather than just one. Ronaldinho actually gave an interview where he said that one of the players that most enjoys playing with is Alex. Alex and Ronaldinho understand each other on a deep and fundamental level (kind of like Pele and Coutinho)... they think faster than anyone else on the pitch, and they see things no one else sees. The two of them together would be unstoppable.

I could live with the same formation I outlined but with Ze in Edmilson's place. The only reason I worry is that I invision quick, accurate, one touch passing as fundamental and I dunno how well Ze would do in such a role. I want someone that can recover the ball, and the vision get it to a well placed teammate quickly without holding up play. Ideally this person would also present himself as a surprise attacking option and would need to be fast so he can run the length of the field to join the attack or defense as necessary. Ze can do the latter part, but I am dubious about the first part.

They play different roles, but in my mind Alex is more talented and adds more to the offense than Adriano. Adriano's form hasn't been the best, but I don't base my decision on that alone. Adriano has strength, speed, and accuracy with the left foot even at long range, but his vision of the game and ability to find a teammate is space is limited. There have been exceptions (see goal against Chile) but in general (watch the Copa America or Confed Cup games) he is not a forward that plays passes to teammates. Ronaldo is, as well as a more tecnical dribbler and finisher to boot (despite lacking some of the speed he possesed in the past). In my view, you need variety: complementary talents. Alex can make artilheiros out of mid-line players -- with a craque like Ronaldo, sai da frente. I don't see Ronaldo and Adriano pulling off tabelas with the frequency I could see Alex leaving Ronaldo na cara do gol or even the reverse. Personally though, I would be far more worried about what Alex and Ronaldinho would do together. Think about it... if the team had Kaka, Ronaldinho, and Alex... who do you give that extra special defensive attention to? Try to mark Alex out of the game and you create space for Ronaldinho and Kaka, try to mark Kaka and Ronaldinho (very hard to do) and you leave Alex space. Think about yourself facing Brasil. Who would you rather face? Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Alex and Kaka or Adriano, Ronaldo, Kaka and Ronaldinho. I think the former are more dangerous.

I feel the need to repeat this every time, and will do so again: the current team should start and be given a chance... but if we were starting from scratch today, I think that there were better ways to set up the team.

 

I suppose we are still waiting for ChaCha to make the last pick of the draft... but maybe we should start considering what we want to do next?

 

I don’t quite share your opinion of his offensive prowess. I love the running for 90 minutes… but I see that level of energy as a potential weapon in the second half or a potential extra time. He is a good player, no doubt about it, and he has improved considerably since the initial WCQ games. Here is an interesting article I recently read about him.

The characteristics of one particular player do not necessarily decrease how offensive a team is. Swapping Ze for Edmilson may take some offensive power away from a team, but that might be outweighed by the freedom Alex gains to create. It’s not as clear cut as you make it seem. The only way to determine the effect is to try it in an actual game.

There are some (I believe unintentional) inaccuracies in what you are saying.

Alex didn’t play in the game against Cameroon (not even as a sub). We lost that game on a single goal by Samuel Eto’o.

In the game against the U.S., Alex started but was subbed off for Gil at the 73rd minute. Brasil won this game, and did virtually all of the attacking. Not the most brilliant performance by either of them, but not a bad result. Perhaps we should have scored more goals, but it was one of those days.

In the game against Turkey, Alex came on in the 64th minute (Parreira started Ricardinho in his place) and scored in the 3rd minute of extra time with an excellent long range shot to avert a humiliating defeat. Too little too late given the loss to Cameroon, but still better than loosing. We were very unlucky to loose this game… particularly after Alex came on; we produced many opportunities that could have been converted.

As for the Olympics, I agree that it was a disappointment, but you can’t burn players over one performance. Ronaldo and Rivaldo failed at the 1996 Olympics and at the 1998 WC. Was that grounds to never play them together again? Both Alex and Ronaldinho have improved and matured immeasurably since 2000. At the time, they were both slated as the future titulares absolutos… Ronaldinho has recovered that mantle, but not Alex despite doing everything to deserve it. They demolished Germany in 1999 by a whopping 4-0. I think this is a pairing with no equals in the world, and it needs to be given a chance. Lately, whenever Alex comes on, Ronaldinho comes off. That is stupid.

I prefer Kleberson in that role… IF he could show the football he demonstrated at Atletico Paranaense or the 2002 WC: more vision, better passing, and better finishing than Ze. It will be hard to forgive Alex Ferguesson for the damage he did to Kleberson's career. I disagree that Ze is perfect for this... he is probably the best option now, but one that leaves a bit to be desired. Again, I am a fan of his... I've liked him since he played on the 1996 Portuguesa team that got second in that year's Brasileiro.

Alex is better without qualification. Adriano is dangerous, but only if is supplied with balls to score with. I don’t know about you… but I’d take a craque midfielder and mid-range forward over an excellent forward with a median midfielder any day of the week. Adriano has shown himself to be a powerful and decisive player that performs well under pressure… but to call him a craque is a bit of a stretch. On the current seleção, I think there are only 3 true outfield craques and several strong challengers with something yet to prove. To me, the two unquestionable craques are Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and perhaps Roberto Carlos. The other craques that are available and capable of playing are Rivaldo and Alex. Kaka, Robinho, Adriano, are all superb players, but have to show more of themselves before deserving this mantle.

I cannot disagree that we might not have won the Copa America without Adriano, but we certainly wouldn’t have won without Alex either (7 assists, 2 goals).

I don’t want Adriano on the bench, but once again, he’d be a great option in the second half if Ronaldo gets lethargic or is injured. Building a team entails hard choices. I think that Alex’s creative power and long range finishing outweighs the need for Adriano’s when we have Ronaldo in the box as well as Kaka and Ronaldinho on the wings. All of this being said, I will repeat yet again that the current team should start the match against Croatia and be changed only if deficiencies are found.

As for your question about trades, I think there are problems with comparing a younger player like Adriano to one that is currently in his prime and will begin his decline soon. There are economic considerations inherent in such a proposition and they would probably skew the answer to your question. Even so, Alex is recognized as the best player in the Turkish league, and an idol of Fener’s torcida… they would only grudgingly part with him for a vast sum of money.

I respect that opinion. I, on the other hand, would be far more concerned with the former front line, because in my view it is less static and far less predictable. The only problem I see is Ronaldo’s weak heading ability, which is somewhat offset by Alex’s great heading ability.

Again (this time not in invisible letters), this would be my WC squad:

Goalkeepers:
Dida (starter)
Julio Cesar
Gomes (or Marcos if he recovers)

Defenders:
Lucio (starter)
Juan (starter)
Luisao
Cicinho (capable of playing RWB/RM)
Cafu (starter)
R.Carlos (starter)

Midfielders:
Gilberto Silva (starter) (capable of playing as CB)
Ze Roberto (starter) (also substitute LB)
Alex (starter)
Kaka (starter)
Edmilson (capable of playing as CB)
Emerson
Kleberson
Juninho Pernambucano

Forwards:
Ronaldinho (starter) (capable of playing offensive midfielder)
Ronaldo (starter)
Adriano
Rivaldo (capable of playing as an offensive midfielder)
Robinho (capable of playing as a side offensive midfielder)
Fred

 

On another note:

All the goals of the best team in history.

 

Argh! I closed the window in which I was typing this when I was practically done… I’ve had to re-write my whole reply.

About Ze's superiority in the offensive sense, there is no question. But what potential you lose in Ze you more than make up for in an Alex free to create. Edmilson is has a pretty good pass as well. I don't think it's clear cut, though like I said, I prefer a volante with more offensive qualities to Edmilson for this particular spot. I'd be willing to live with Ze in my formation. Not convinced this is a good tradeoff? Let's consider some statistics:

It's true that numbers definitely don’t tell the whole story. There are many key passes that are not considered assists, for example. There are also intangible ways that players influence a game that aren’t expressible numerically. Likewise, not all goals are equally important, nor is it equally hard to score in Spain, Brasil, Turkey, and Italy. These things are no secret, but I mention them anyway to make sure we are all on the same page. That said, the numbers are one objective basis for making observations. I had initially intended to compare Alex, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Adriano, and Kaka’s goal and assist per game numbers, but the assist numbers are not easily obtainable, nor are statistics for games that were not part of the main leagues. I will delay this effort until I can compile the required information. Since I do have the numbers for Alex, I will share them: since 2002, in the 190 games for which I have a record, he has scored 106 goals, and made 98 assists. That amounts to an average of .558 goals per game, and .516 assists per game. What these numbers mean is that, on average, Alex will either score or assist a teammate in scoring at least once per game. A widely held view is that a dedicated striker is considered good, and doing his job if he averages .5 goals per game (Adriano is at about .7). Alex, on the other hand, is an offensive midfielder -- a position for which .33 goals per game is regarded as exceptional. Add to this the fact that both Kaka and Ronaldinho would be playing in forward positions in the formation I proposed (and therefore would be more likely to score) and I think that it’s hard to argue that you loose much (if anything) offensively. You’re likely to see different kinds of goals, that’s for sure.

I see. I thought you were referring to the match against Cameroon in 2003 that we lost 0-1, because from context it seemed you were talking about the Confed. Cup.

They are wrong. It wouldn’t be the first time. =)

I got my information from the official match report.

I understood your point. That’s why I brought up the fact that Alex and Ronaldinho got to play basically 90 minutes together in the 2003 Confed Cup. As you pointed out, they had some less than stellar performances over the year, but there are also great ones (even when they were very young and playing against an A team) that you hadn’t mentioned. This fact remains though: both players are significantly better now than they were back then, and yet they have had very few opportunities to play together during this run of spectacular form, much less with seleção principal. In their present form, I think they would be unstoppable.

Agreed. His form has been improving in Turkey, and the skill is certainly there, but the damage done to his career during a crucial period of development did considerable harm to his career.

Kaka is more of a meia-atacante than a playmaker or meia-armador. He may be one of the world’s best midfielders, but I question whether he is one of the world’s best playmakers. I see him more of a linker -- an exceptional conductor of the ball, and he can certainly make plays, but he lacks the creativity, unpredictability, passing ability and vision of a Ronaldinho or Alex.

I am glad you called me on this because I think it’s very worthy of discussion. I don’t throw around the word craque easily. That may be why you take exception to what I am saying. Kaka is certainly the closest player that I don’t consider a craque to eventually being included in this group, but IMO he is not yet. If Roberto Carlos is a craque (a few years back he could have been elected FIFA player of the year), then certainly Kaka and many others are. But to me, there have been really only 5 craques since 1990 in Brasil. They are: Romario, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho and Alex. There have been many fantastic players, but they don’t quite rise to this level. Kaka possesses incredibly refined and elegant technique, allied with strength, speed, consistency and objectivity. He is a unique and exceptional player, but to me, he is not a craque. To be a craque in my vernacular, you have to possess that little bit extra: that “third-eye” that allows one to anticipate how the game will unfold before it does and react instantly, the genius and audacity to try something absolutely unexpected and unpredictable, the calculated malice and self confidence to call the responsibility of winning onto oneself, or the sheer force of will and presence to carry an entire team on one’s back. All of the players in this select group possess this to a degree that raises them that extra notch above their peers. Adriano and Kaka, particularly the latter, have showed glimpses of this… but more will have to be demonstrated before they can solidify their position within this select group. In the commonly used sense, Kaka is surely a craque – and even in that sense it means quite a lot, but it isn’t how I use the word.

Yet, he lacks the habilidade or short, high speed dribble that Ronaldo possessed in spades… and also unlike Ronaldo his ability to pass the ball or try something totally unexpected (think the chute de bico against Turkey) is limited. What he has in spades is raça and determination. The games against Argentina in the final of both the Copa America and the Confed Cup were amazing. For those alone he deserves the starting position, which I never proposed to take from him. For the thousandth time I will repeat that I think the current team with the current lineup should start and be modified only if it doesn’t correspond to expectations. I, however, would have built it around a different base.

Nilmar is playing incredibly well. Choosing between him and Fred is agonizing, particularly since he plays for my team, but I think Fred has a slight edge. I have no doubt that Nilmar has a future in the seleção… but between him and Rivaldo (who has been playing well in Greece) I will take Rivaldo every time. Rivaldo is a genuine craque in the sense that I described above. He decides games when everyone else shies away, he is subject to intense sparks of the most absolute brilliance, and in my mind he was far and away the best player of the last World Cup. Rivaldo tries things people would never expect; if they don’t work, he bears levels criticism that would cause other’s emotional substrate to crumble, and when they do he is called sometimes called a genius, but more often others take the credit and he is forgotten. Rivaldo should not be a starter… but he is too much of a winner and too decisive to ignore. If my team were loosing a game and I am facing 20 minutes of do or die, I’d much rather see Rivaldo when I look over at my bench than Nilmar. I am just being honest with you.

As for Kleberson, I think that he deserves the chance… it’s debatable of course, but I think that for what he did in the last WC, and unique skillset he possesses, he’d be worth the risk. Maybe you take Renato in his place… maybe one less volante for another striker or Ricardinho (who Parreira loves).

I don’t think that there are any great options: Gilberto is a journeyman lateral – nothing more. Gustavo Nery can be good but his form has been abysmal. Junior is also good but leaves much to be desired defensively. Kleber isn’t playing what he played in 2002. Leo comes to mind, but I honestly don’t know too much about his current form or how he is playing. Same with Silvinho, who hasn’t started for Barca in a while if I am not mistaken. I say make Ze the designated sub because he has entrosamento with the team, is playing reasonably well, can run like hell, and is a natural fit for the position. If Roberto Carlos had to come out of the team, you’d only have to make one sub, RC for the volante to take Ze’s place. If you look at his retrospective *knocks on wood* RC is unlikely to come off to begin with other than for suspension… so, to me, you take someone else who is actually likely to be utilized at some point. If we are going to take a LE, it should be one with a future, because RC isn’t going to last forever.

 

Oh wow. I hadn't heard that yet. That sucks.