I just remembered something funny. Remember when Miami played BC earlier this year and all the BC students had signs about how disloyal Miami was cause they bolted for the ACC. How can you just do an about face like that? Hypocrites.
This expansion was never about "respect on the field". It was about (a) getting Miami into the fold and (b) getting to 12 members so ACC could have a championship game in football. So yeah, BC earned it, at least more so than VTech Okay. So I was wrong. Big East is all about money, mainly because of TV markets. Sure, there are Big East schools that aren't in major TV markets, but they all appeal to NY, Boston, Philly or DC to some degree. Providence is reasonably close to Boston and has alums there. Rutgers and Seton Hall cater to the NYC metro TV market. West Virginia is only marginally close to Pittsburgh, but they were necessary to get the Miami Invitational Conference. Let's not kid ourselves here - Big East would never have existed in the first place if Georgetown, St. John's, Villanova and Seton Hall etc weren't located where they are. And Big East's football conference was founded for one reason - Miami and its bowl money. Everyone else, West Virginia, VTech, etc, joined to make up numbers.
So you're condemning a bunch of northeasten schools for forming a conference with other schools in their region who faced the same scheduling problems?
No, not at all. But I do find it hilarious when people whine about "integrity" when one member decides to leave because there's more money to be made elsewhere.
obie and Spartak...the word down here is that the presidents preferred BC to Syracuse because of Boston's TV market. I, personally, preferred Syracuse, because it's a better fit in the minor sports. But I'm glad that they're adding a school that has been strong in basketball. That's still what separates the ACC from other conferences, both in terms of image and money.
From the Syracuse AD: "As for Boston College, also an original member of the Big East, I am disappointed. Three months ago, the presidents, chancellors and athletic directors of the six remaining Big East football schools sat face to face and pledged their loyalty to one another and to the Big East. I guess handshakes don’t mean much anymore." Is that "integrity"? Then how did you feel when you took on the two worst teams in the BE last year? yes, worse than Rutgers and West Virginia. If the BE goes ahead and adds Louisville, DePaul, Marquette and Cinncinnati they have the top basketball conference in the country.
I really hope that Marquette and DePaul don't go to the Big East. I like them both playing the midwest teams. Funny that those two school are being hypothisized though. Look at the size of those markets (Milwaukee and Chicago).
Now you mention the "pledge". I forgot about that. But note that at no point in the thread did I say that BC didn't lack integrity. I just expressed my amusement at the mention of the word from a conference founded on money grabbin' and A-10 raidin'. Yeah, breaking the pledge isn't going to win you a lot of karma points. But what if Syracuse or WV had been offered a spot? I'm not saying they would have broken the pledge. But you don't know that they wouldn't have either. It's easy to talk about "principles" and "integrity" when you don't have anything to lose.
This is the greatest thing that's happened to the University of Cininnati athletics since The Big O. It won't be made official November 4th, but we're already looking forward to battling Louisville for the BigEast Basketball and football title year after year.
Syracuse would have taken it in a heartbeat. Hell, any of the BE schools would have taken the offer. On the syracuse.com message boards, they're holding out hope that the ACC comes courting for Cuse and UConn within the next 1-2 years. Everyone has to take a cold, hard look at this entire process and admit once and for all that it's all about money. I'd love to think that my alma mater is above all that, but it's not and neither are any of yours (Patriot and Ivy Leagues excepted). Do I want BC to stay in the Big East? Yes, but not at the expense of Cincinnati, Louisville, Central Florida, and Southern Florida on the football schedule every season. The 14-team Big East was an absurd attempt to combine two sets of unlike athletic programs that failed, and my greatest hope is for the non-football schools to run away from Tranghese as quickly as possible. ... And it's a race between 'Cuse, WVU and Pitt to see who can get their call to the Big Ten answered first. They might try to hold out for the call from Notre Dame, but if NBC bucks up again it's not going to come.
No way it would be WVU. They wouldn't add anything to the conference and they would not even come close to stack up academically.
It would most likely be Pitt. Seems to be a better fit with all the Big Ten schools, and if I remember correctly, Penn State gave serious thought to asking the Big Ten to invite Pitt when they joined.
No, probably not, but they'll still try. 'Cuse fans would disagree but of the BE schools, Pitt is the best choice. Excellent reputation in health science and the medical school, and Penn State would love to restart their rivalry.
Syracuse had lukewarm feelings towards the move to the ACC since it was first rumored last year. Have you forgotten Boeheim's statements? I'm not sure quite exactly sure how much pull he has but I'd assume it's quite a bit. Enough to turn down an offer? who knows.
My only vote is as a fan. I don't have to balance the books. As a fan, I didn't like any of it. Adding Miami, only, makes sense, esp. if they were to add a men's soccer team. They would add to the football, they have potential in basketball, and they would complement the ACC's great baseball. But that's me talking as a fan. If I were an AD, I'd have to realistically look at the changing financial landscape and try to get to 12 teams. Is this some kind of joke?!?!?! No f***ing way. Count Final Fours over the last 5 or 8 or 10 years. Since 1986, the birth of the modern tournament, Georgia Tech has been to one, Maryland has been to two, UNC has been to 6, Duke has been to 9. And Wake, FSU and Uva have been to the Elite Eight. Even Clemson has been to the Sweet Sixteens a few times...3 I think. And NC State has been, too. It's no contest...the ACC has the best record in the NCAA tournament in the modern era. And all of those schools figure to be as good in the next 10 years as they've been the last 10.
I don't know enough about the power structure at Syracuse to say one way or the other. But FWIW, I can tell you that both Roy Williams and Mike Kryzwisdfgdffdhrhsfski (sp?) were against expansion and I think we can agree that b-ball programs at UNC and Duke are just as influential as the one at Syracuse.
Um, and Clemson and FSU do? Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that academics matter a single bit in college athletics conferences.
One gripe I have with this is that none of the BE football schools were in the Atlantic 8 or Eastern 8 as full members. They were all independents in football. If the ACC wants to take SHU, Villanova, etc. by all means have them.
Edit: Misread what you wrote, so disregard what I initially said. I believe both UNC (or 1 other NC school) and Duke voted against VT so that proves they had the power to sway the school's vote. It was the other seven schools that voted for expansion.
I think Clemson's a better school than you're giving it credit for. It's an "A&T" type school, so it doesn't "compete" directly with the typical, liberal arts oriented college. But that's how people (unfairly) rate them. I'm a UNC alum, but this is something I have to attack UNC people for. Yes, UNC has better English and history and chemistry, etc. departments than NC State, because that's not NC State's mission. Probably 95% of the programs that are at both schools, if not more, UNC is better than State. And how can State people reply? They have very strong programs in stuff like forestry and textiles and engineering. Their mission is applied sciences. UNC doesn't have that. Since raw sciences are the building blocks, both school have biology and chemistry. But UNC's are better because that's where their profs do their research. And State has to have English and history and foreign languages. But, again, UNC is ranked better, because State's profs are there to teach the subject, not research it. (I'm exaggerating the differences here, but you get the point.) VT and Clemson are fine applied sciences colleges. I'm not gonna defend FSU.
The 64 team tournament with no 1st seed bye started in 1985. The "new" BE has had 12 final four appearances and the ACC has 18 final four appearances. The BE has had 10 different teams in whereas the ACC has had 4. It's all really a matter of opinion but I think top to bottom the BE is clearly stronger. Who is the 6th best team in the proposed BE? You can arrange the ranking numerous ways but chances are you'll have either ND, Cincinnati or Louisville. For the ACC? Maybe UVA, Clemson or even BC. I'd take the first group but again it's just my opinion. Of course this is all a waste of time if the "C-USA 4" aren't added.
I wonder if the BE would start thinking about adding Temple just to keep up the numbers. The football-playing schools that remain should just declare their football programs independent and continue their BE affiliation in the other sports. I think that an independent Syracuse football program may prove attractive in the long run. They could schedules games against Big Ten, ACC and SEC schools, even play Norte Dame every other year.
Nowadays unless you're ND, you can't have a big time program as an independent. The BE will still have their BCS spot till 2006 so there's no way they split now.
Andy Katz reported that the Big East will invite Louisville and Cincy for football and basketball and Marquette and DePaul for hoops. One of the small Fla schools (USF/UCF) will make up the numbers for football - [smarta$$ remark]until NBC dumps Notre Dame's football contract.[/smarta$$ remark]