I was in favor of River being awarded the win last time, so I feel intellectually consistent in saying it should work the same way this time. Not that I expect that to happen. Either that or no trophy for anybody. It has to stop. The animals in our midst won't learn unless there are actual consequences.
“If I were Boca I wouldn’t play either. In 2015 Boca were sanctioned for similar acts, Boca should be declared champions.” Luis Felipe Scolari, head coach of new crowned champions Palmeiras.🎥@SC_ESPN pic.twitter.com/5F84mTlLb5— Boca in English | Podcast (@CABJ_English) November 25, 2018
The bus was being attacked from the stadium as it entered. So much for any difference between now and 2015. Video de @AmericaTV La llegada del micro de Boca al estadio Videla bajo una lluvia de piedras que caen desde la arriba de la cancha. Fíjense hacia donde apunta el policia que se baja de la moto pic.twitter.com/8aSGlHY8n8— Boca Juniors - La12Tuittera (@la12tuittera) November 27, 2018
River should have been kicked out also in the semi after Gallardo entered the changing room. He even admitted it himself.
I don't care about the game anymore, this is much bigger than the game. As much as I love Boca, as big as a Boca vs River Libertadores final is, it all pales in comparison to the importance of dealing with the rotten society that gave us this disaster and many others. I think that while the violence is unfortunately nothing new, the fact that it was displayed in front of the whole world gives us the opportunity - and I would argue the obligation - to finally do something serious about it. I remember back in the day I watched as Liverpool played Juventus for the Euro final, in front of the whole world. As tragedy ensued, the rottenness of English football and society was displayed to all, much to England's shame. Britain to their credit did something about it and today, while it's not fully fixed, the worst of the problem is clearly in the past. I realize in Argentina it is more difficult, because everybody is corrupt and we lack real leadership, but this is truly a historic opportunity, not to take sides, not for Boca to ask for the title to be given to us - or not for River to ask for the game to be played in the same stadium with the same public. I don't care what happens to the game, obviously some serious punishment should be given to River's stadium, but it's not about punishing River, this is a time to go beyond this one incident, and deal in full with the problem of all the barras that contaminate all our teams. What happened this past week in All Boys for example, is unacceptable if we are to be a civilized society, and yet it keeps happening over and over. Javier Cantero, the former president of Independiente was a hero, he stood up to the barras, and they turned him out - it's time all follow his leadership, a common front has to emerge, the nation must unite to confront the repugnant violent people who ruined our beautiful game. But no, I look at the comments in Argentine media, everybody is arguing, measuring dicks, blaming each other, trying to take competitive advantage of the situation, coming up with new offensive songs, calling each other hypocrites and even trying to use technicalities in an attempt to justify the unjustifiable. I love Argentina, I feel the love and the passion of our people, it's truly like nowhere else in the world. But there is also the hatred that is ingrained in our society. We must get past that, we must recognize and confront our dark side, or else it's going to destroy us.
I agree that as a society we must change, but what do you propose? There is always going to be some idiot who throws a rock. You can’t control the actions of millions of [drunk and irrational] people, especially when they’re in public streets. Do you think if the game isn’t played the barras and scum of society are suddenly going to say “hey, wait a minute... we have to change our ways!”...... come on now. You can ask for the hatred to be toned down, sure, but the rivalry is so deeply embedded that you cant just expect people to suddenly kneel before the other. The majority of fans aren't represented by these violent individuals, and sadly the ones who need to change aren't going to change regardless of the resolution taken by CONMEBOL. There are idiots everywhere, and there always will be. Flamengo fans put Independiente through the same exact scenario in last year's Sudamericana final in Brazil... Last year the Dortmund team got bombed on it's way to a match vs. Monaco. For what it’s worth, a molotov cocktail was thrown inside of the stadium at a Champions League match today. The plague is everywhere. So much for Europeans being the civilized example for us chimps to follow. What we do need to do is hold the police and the city accountable for their poor organization and enforcement. Why was the area cleared, when fans are never allowed that close to the team bus in other matches? River and Boca play every year and that area is always cleared of fan presence for dozens of meters. Where were the 2,200+ officers responsible for security of the event? Why weren't any arrests made? Too many questions, too many flaws, too much wiping hands clean. If those responsible for the attacks are held accountable, then maybe (and that's a big maybe) things will change. The aforementioned guy who bombed Dortmund's bus is going to jail for 14 years and could face 28 counts of murder. I'm sure no one will be imitating his actions from now on. We, on the other hand, gave panadero a slap on the wrist... the guys who threw rocks on Saturday are also free to roam the streets... Another thing that can be done is ask for more professionalism and less inciting of violence from the participants. Boca's players provoked River fans on the way to the stadium and Gago even showed them the finger.... Benedetto insulted fans at the Monumental and told them to "go to work," treating them as worthless peasants... Tevez made statements vilifying River and its players, building the outrage of Boca fans on a basis of inaccurate statements... Not that any of these actions excuse violence by any means, but the very least the guys on the main stage can do is not add gas to the flame. As a society we must definitely improve, but it is unrealistic to ask for mass-scale changes over night. We can, however, begin by making the much more realistic request that those who organize and participate in the event do their jobs and don't facilitate/encourage incidents.
Here are some ideas. I know some of these may sound extreme, but it's an extreme situation, and we do want to save our beautiful game, I hope. 1) High security at futbol games, both inside the stadium and in the vicinity, well coordinated and performance-evaluated on a weekly basis. 2) ID cards for fans to get tickets and enter the stadium. If you go to the stadium, you must have the ID with you at all times. Possibly people should be asked to carry an ID even to be at the vicinity of a stadium on the day of the game. If you don't have one, you can't loiter in the area. 3) Blacklist suspected barras, and do not let them into the stadium or even in the vicinity of stadiums, like a restraining order with stiff punishments including fines and prison sentences for breaking it. 4) Stiff prison sentences and blacklist for anybody who commits futbol-related violence at or near the stadiums. 5) Zero tolerance for alcohol and drugs at or near the stadiums, with stiff penalties for offenders. 6) Stiff punishments for clubs when violence ocurrs at or in the vicinity of their stadiums. Punishments should be based on very clear parameters set in advance, not on politicking by clubs. Any other ideas?
Agreed. If the security operative fails, questions must be asked and answers must be given by those in charge, especially when there are unexplained irregularities as there were on Saturday. This kind of exists already. For instance, the ticket purchaser's DNI was printed on the actual ticket for the final and attendees had to show a matching ID card at multiple checkpoints on the way to entering the stadium. Not exactly a Fan ID program as the one that was implemented in Russia for the WC, but still a measure to identify possible attackers and limit recirculation of sold tickets. Already exists as "derecho de admision", although arguable if it is implemented. In the Argentina-Peru WCQ game, for example, I know a few people on the blacklist were denied access to the stadium. In 2012, however, Mauro Martin (leader of La 12) admitted to the courts that he had illegally entered River's stadium to witness the Superclasico, despite being banned. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples, and we all know a few dollars can make the crooked officials turn a blind eye. Once again this turns into an issue of police/security officials failing to serve their purpose. This is a proposal I 100% agree with. Even the smallest violent attacks should be reprimanded harshly. If the violent folks see a direct threat to their personal freedom (and their bank accounts), then maybe they'll reconsider partaking in any primitive behavior. However, as things stand, they don't face any real penalties, so why change? Make the prison sentences and legal consequences severe --even moreso than usual-- to not only punish those who commit these acts, but also make others think twice before being violent. Not sure what the current policy is, but I believe both of those things are already banned at stadiums and their immediate surroundings. Not that it stops people from bringing both of them in, anyway... I'm with you, but this also creates a window for false attacks to be generated just to eliminate rivals. How can you control what happens on the city streets? Financial punishments and closure of stadiums after violent occurrences within the confinements of the stadium already exist, as they should.
Just wondering, since the game will be played out of the country, where would you like it to be? Asunción is a bad choice since violence could easily break out. Personally, I’d like to see the game in the States and Miami and LA are two cities that could easily host it. Getting a visa for entry to the US with a criminal record would be difficult and will take time to get. Plus, the cops and security would be able to handle the fandom. Italy could be another cause of concern and a big fat no to the Middle East but I feel that’s where it may end up.
If it's in the USA, you can bet I'll be going out of my way to make it (assuming it's not closed doors). Asuncion is a realistic option just because of the fact that CONMEBOL is based there.. Apparently some security operatives are already being created, too. But like you said, violence can still break out there. I remember many incidents in past Libertadores games, and those weren't even Superclasicos. Apparently Qatar has entered the picture now as well, offering millions to host the cup. Money talks, sooooo.... The other question is in terms of the audience. If you play abroad, do you play with both fans? In that case River would lose the home advantage, while Boca would unjustly have their people in both games. If it's only River fans, how do you truly distinguish between the two? If it's closed doors, what's the point of playing abroad?
Sucks to do that. Really sucks for the common fan, who can’t afford to travel, but I expect the barras will manage to attend no matter where they play.
Yes, the problem is implementation. Many of these rules are already in place but fail due to poor implementation. And penalties have to be stiffer. They round people up, and next thing you know they are all free again.
I’ve been looking at places in CA and the LA Coliseum could be a realistic venue. There are no schedule events for the 8th or 9th. The Rams have a game a week later on the 16th. The Coliseum can pack nearly 80k people and the US dollar being as strong as it is now, they can charge a premium. The Rose Bowl has some flea market thing going on the 9th but could that be moved but also Pasadena has a rule of not having major events on a Sunday, so it would have to be the 8th. Levi Stadium has other events, I believe. Miami and NY have large Argentine communities but I think regardless most Latin American communities would show up for this and tickets would sell fast. Qatar would suck ass even though I’d expect both fan bases to show up but again fights could break out and probably the last thing you’d want is being thrown into a middle eastern jail. In La, we got the LAPD to whip some ass.
I agree, it is unfortunate for those who can’t travel. My concern if the match is played in Paraguay and if another disaster occurs then CONMEBOL bans Argentine clubs from intercontinental tournaments for a period of time. I know, it is just a hypothetical but I would assume there would be a smaller chance that this would not repeat in the US than having it in near by Paraguay.
The scenarios I heard were in Paraguay behind closed doors and in Doha with fans. Really how many Argentinos are traveling all the way there on short notice? I assume it'd just be locals with nothing better to do. And why shouldn't River lose home advantage? Why move the game at all if that isn't the point?
Se que soy tan boludo que si se juega el partido lo voy a querer ver, pero en principio, comparto los sentimientos de este hincha de River https://www.marca.com/buzz/2018/11/28/5bfe3fb9e5fdea5c478b466c.html
Mas allá de toda la bronca que tengo, de que ganaron los violentos y de que los chantas directivos de los clubes y Conmebol aprovecharon el quilombo cínicamente para hacer mas negocio que beneficie a ellos y cague a los hinchas comunes, mas allá de que es una barbaridad que la final superclásico se juegue en el exterior, igual debo reconocer que si no queda otra, y si se tiene que jugar afuera de Argentina, no se me ocurre que se pueda elegir una cancha mejor que el Bernabeu como sede. Mucho mejor que todas las otras alternativas idiotas que se barajaron, como Asunción, Qatar etc. Y bueno, no queda otra que verlo y apoyar a Boca, porque el sentimiento es mas fuerte que yo. Hasta me dan ganas de comprarme un pasaje a Madrid. Y ojalá que se arme un partido lindo como el de ida, y que gane el mejor...errrr Boca por supuesto.
No, viejo... la final se tiene que jugar, y no hay razon por cual los hinchas de River y Boca tendriamos que condicionar nuestra pasion y entusiasmo por ella. Si no le damos bola al encuentro por un par de idiotas, ahi si que ganan los violentos. Si el partido no se jugara finalmente, le daria via libre a los violentos para que hagan lo que quieran. No solo implicaria que ellos tienen mas poder que la CONMEBOL y los clubes, ya que sus acciones determinarian todo un torneo, pero crearia toda una nueva era corrupta en el futbol: si un equipo teme a un rival, podria mandar a un camuflado para eliminarlo.... ni siquiera tendria que ingresar al estadio para hacer daño. O aun peor... si la barra esta desconforme con la dirigencia de su club por no darles plata y entradas, podrian hacer un disturbio planeado para eliminar a su propio club y ahi tomar revancha contra los dirigentes. En fin, que se juegue el partido y lo vivamos como todos queremos --con pasion y paz-- es la mejor resolucion. A lo contrario, solo nos hariamos los rehenes de los violentos.
Dicen que todo cambio nace de una destruccion... esperemos que si de algo sirvieron estos incidentes, que haya sido para que la gente le baje un tono a la cosa. Ojala algunos se esten replantando futuras acciones, que se den cuenta que no hay gracia en tirarle objetos a gente, por mas que sean "rivales." Ojala que de ahora en mas se les brinde mas seguridad a los jugadores, como tambien a los espectadores... que los operativos esten mejor organizados.. que otros equipos no tengan pasar mas por estas situaciones, que desafortunadamente hasta ahora fueron consideradas normales en nuestra sociedad. Que cuando pasen estas cosas se encuentren a los responsables y que sean castigados de manera seria.. con camaras y un operativo policial no es para nada imposible. Que ahora el que gane -sea River o Boca- celebre a full, pero con mas consciencia y racionalidad. Es una mancha, sin dudas, pero tambien una gran oportunidad para reflejar y mejorar. Tanto los hinchas, como los clubes (dirigentes y jugadores) y la ciudad, deberian aprender de este momento desagradable y hacer cambios para mejorar no solo el ambiente de futbol, pero nuestra sociedad en general. Si eso ocurre o no es otra cosa, pero la posibilidad esta en nuestras manos
Bien, claro que yo quiero que se juegue, claro que lo quiero ver, donde sea, cuando sea, con o sin público, soy amante del fútbol y tanto Boca como River armaron lindos equipos y si los dejamos jugar nos pueden brindar un partido digno de las circunstancias. Yo me admiro como, a pesar de las diferencias económicas con el resto del mundo, en Argentina aún se arman equipos competitivos. Pero los violentos me quitan las ganas. Y no son quince o veinte. Es una actitud de odio que va mucho más allá de una rivalidad. Lo que se lee en los medios, en las redes sociales, lo que se escucha, que hay que quebrarlos, que hay que matarlos, que ellos son los HdeP, nosotros somos distintos, etc. Es una vergüenza y va mucho mas allá de una rivalidad deportiva. Yo se que puedo ver un partido con un amigo de River, y tenemos sentido del humor, podemos gastarnos, reírnos del absurdo, (che, fueron a llorar a Paraguay, che, a Gimnasia se olvidaron de tirarle las piedras) y nos tomamos un vinito y la pasamos bien. Pero hay tipos que te cagan a trompadas por eso, y de repente la culpa no es del violento sinó de la victima. Ahora resulta que para algunos la culpa es del jugador que se tapó la nariz, o hizo la gallinita, y con eso quieren justificar lo Injustificable. Es como justificar al violador porque la mina lo provocó poniéndose la minifalda. No podemos disfrutar la minifalda sin violar? Y bien, es difícil disfrutar lo lindo del fútbol, lo lindo de tener una rivalidad especial entre dos equipos grandes, cuando hay tanto odio detrás.
There really needs to be more public displays of comraderie between the teams IMO. They always have that little token gesture between the presidents but I would like to see the players and coaches arm in arm Boca and River, reading statements before the game like the anti racism ones they do in other countries. It really should be a full on campaign that emphasizes that being a true fan means representing your team in an admirable way and being sportsmanlike. Coaches and players should be sanctioned for singing derogatory chants about rivals as well. You don't see that kind of crap in countries where this isn't a problem. One tradition I love about hockey is the handshake at the end of a hard fought series. You can see the players on opposite sides give each other words of respect and encouragement. Soccer has it in the beginning but it's a lot more meaningful at the end when you can show there are no hard feelings. It's just a game. It should be more about enjoying the win than rubbing it in other people's faces or straight up threatening them.
Ya se viene... Después de todo el quilombo, la violencia, la vergüenza, la ironía de llevar la libertadores a España, al fin se va a jugar un partido de fútbol, y se va a definir un campeonato. Claro que aunque se gane, no será lo mismo que dar la vielta en la cancha de ellos, pero a pesar de todo, si se dá va a ser lindo dar la vuelta, algo inolvidable. Y si no se da, bueno, hay que saber perder con honor, y recordar que el fútbol siempre nos trae nuevas alegrías, y siempre da la chance de revancha en la cancha. No es posible borrar todo lo feo que pasó, pero ojalá se de un partido limpio, emocionante, y por supuesto,con un triunfo de los nuestros. VAMOS BOOOOOCA!!!!!!!