BLM/Police Reform protests

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Boloni86, Jun 2, 2020.

  1. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    It's probably worth recalling that, thanks to prosecutorial misconduct, the guys who killed Ahmaud Arberry came really close to getting away with it.

    Looking forward to her trial in the near future.
     
  2. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    #4652 xtomx, Nov 24, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
    Agreed on all counts, even the Charlie Sykes ( :eek: :eek: ) comment!
     
  3. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Oooh, fancy! ;)
    Perhaps a nice jacquard print, to match the furniture.
     
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  4. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Anyone who has taken the now-ubiquitous workplace trainings on what to do in a mass shooting situation knows the hierarchy is run, hide, fight. Hiding is impossible in a Rittenhouse scenario, and some people would naturally assess running as impossible too. So you get what we got.
    Oh, I see someone made the same point later in the thread.
    BRILLIANT point. In many, many contexts, the open carry is someone swinging his metaphorical dick around to scare people.
    This is clearly wrong. If Rittenhouse has the right to shoot at people because he subjectively is afraid, why is soccernutter not allowed to beat up Rittenhouse if HE subjectively is afraid. Does state of mind only protect the guy with the gun, and not the people afraid of the guy with the gun?
    We're doomed, in one photo. To me, this photo just SCREAM psychopath.

    I mean, the guy on the right. We already knew that about the guy on the left.

    But seriously, compare this photo op and Rittenhouse's bullshit tears and story.
    They're all guilty of felony murder, which sounds worse than malice murder.
    That's precisely my opinion too. I've said as much...I get the verdict, but the law is ********ed up. I mean, in Plessy v. Ferguson, Plessy was guilty of trespassing.
     
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  5. Chesco United

    Chesco United Member+

    DC United
    Jun 24, 2001
    Chester County, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This verdict reminds me of when I moved to PA in 1987, when I was shocked by the racism when I moved from VA to PA.
     
  6. roadkit

    roadkit Greetings from the Fringe of Obscurity

    Jul 2, 2003
    Fornax Cluster
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My point is that if someone brings a gun to a protest, they damn well better have thought through what circumstances they plan on using it. His while point of going to Kenosha was to protect property -- so he took his gun. Why?

    If he just want to parade around with a gun, why did it have to be loaded? These are important questions. It gets at the whole reason for him being there.
     
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  7. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    @xtomx @Yoshou can one of you guys answer this?
     
  8. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Most states don't cap compensatory damages for civil liability but do cap punitive damages, or require that every dollar over X amount in punitives goes to the state. And, usually, if one obtains a judgment against a defendant, one can put a lien on their assets or garnish wages. But often times, it varies from state to state how you can do this. Many states have laws that don't allow defendants with criminal convictions from profiting off the notoriety of their crimes, but---obviously---that requires a conviction, which didn't happen here.

    One could attempt to sue his mother under some sort of vicarious liability theory but it would depend a lot on the extent of her knowledge and how attenuated any proximate cause would be. Same with the car dealership but even more difficult unless they were specifically calling for the sort of armed vigilantism we saw. I really haven't followed the details in that regard.

    He may have violated some federal firearms statutes beyond the state laws, but I'd be speculating without researching that.
     
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  9. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I think the crossing state lines part is overplayed unless the charges were carrying a weapon (which he may have done but there is a cover up story as @xtomx I think mentioned). Reason I say this is because he lived less than 30 mins away and supposedly did have a part time job in Kenosha . His father supposedly also lives there. So he has some connection there.

    What I got from this whole situation is that self defense case can supersede a law being broken (underage carrying a gun). Not sure how different it would have been if they could have included crossing state lines with a gun charge.

    Carrying a gun inside a gun in a school is illegal no ? And highly unusual. Perhaps seeing the past decade (and specially past couple of years) of protests include people openly carrying guns/ARs has me looking at that as a bit "normal" and not a sign of imminent threat.

    Most people are understandably bothered by people carrying guns in protests, but obviously, given how little incidents have occurred if any like the one in Kenosha, it's clear to see that most people don't seem to feel threatened enough to defend themselves by physically attacking and trying to disarm them.

    @soccernutter said what he was trained to do if there is somebody with a gun unholstered walking around.

    I just don't see it that way. For me to be feel imminent threat, specially one that would trigger me to take action to defend myself or people around me, would have to be more than somebody walking around with a gun around their neck in one of these protests. Perhaps like I said, I've seen too many of these situations occur with nothing happening. People just go on protesting and antagonizing each other.

    I think we are beating a dead horse now and are just going around in circles.
     
  10. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    That subjectivity is and has been judged by a jury in court with supporting evidence.

    If you think your subjectivity of imminent threat is protected by law, go right ahead.

    No it does not only protect the guy with the gun, that's a false statement and you're mis-representing what I've been saying.
     
  11. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Actually, in some states (Oregon, New Hampshire and others) carrying a gun in schools is legal, as are guns in bars, churches, and governmental buildings.
     
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  12. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    New Zealand
    I mean this will come as a shock to this liberal echo chamber, but a significant number of pro-gun ownership conservatives don't think a 17 year old has any business open carrying like that, or that open carry has anything to do with self defence.
     
  13. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    New Zealand
    This is where I had a lot of trouble getting people to understand what intent to kill meant in the pistorius case

    We judge subjective state of mind from actions and circumstantial evidence.

    Keeping a loaded gun beside your bed does in fact demonstrate planning and foresight to use deadly force. I agree in this case, his intent before he goes is crucial. This didn't all happen by accident. He planned and intended to use deadly force and did in fact use it. Unfortunately the Judge shut down this part of the case as "propensity evidence"

    i.e. we can't argue that KR is the kind of person who would shoot people in vigilante style based on his past behaviours and actions, unless they meet the high bar for similar fact evidence

    IMO this was a mistake in the Judge's legal direction of the case.
     
  14. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    New Zealand
    This is a good thread on how silly this stuff can get (Watts is a gun regulation campaigner)

    It reminds me of a similar situation in the Lori Vallow case where her brother shot dead her ex-husband, with whom she had a turbulent relationship. Self defence was claimed and the police apparently not only didn't investigate, but helped clean up????

    Years later Vallow is now charged with that murder

     
  15. ElNaranja

    ElNaranja Member+

    Houston Dynamo
    United States
    Jul 16, 2017
    Right wing militias have been starting fights at protests all over the PNW this whole time. There was even 1 shootout (no one was hurt). Of course said nutjobs were aided by the police in how to avoid being arrested, or where to find small groups of protestors to ambush.

    Point is that violence is absolutely happening and if you live in those areas, your threshold for danger may be very different.
     
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  16. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    #4666 Deadtigers, Nov 25, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
    It's was designed as such. The defense judge err, I mean the judge want to give KR, the best chance possible at a Not Guilty. He even got the gun tossed when we all know that law doesnt apply to KR.
     
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  17. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    So they are "PGINO" (Pro gun in name only), then?
    That seems pretty inconsistent.

    But the ONLY way stop a bad guy with a gun as a "good guy" with a gun...even if that guy* is a 17 year old cosplayer.


    *I won't say which "guy" the 17 year old is.
     
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  18. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Looks like QAnon is a bit too far right for Rittenhouse.

    On firing Lin Wood as his lawyer.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/followers-qanon-movement-lashing-kyle-025314856.html
     
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  19. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    QAnon influencer John Sabal, better known as QAnon John, posted a message on Wednesday to his 71,265 subscribers, writing: "Not too smart to shit where you sleep, Kyle…" while linking out to the interview where Rittenhouse made those comments.
     
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  20. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    Don't drink beer but like cheese
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, but how loud are their in their objections?
     
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  21. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    If nothing else, we learned that the right hates random white lefties more than it does random Black people. Kyle Rittenhouse is a certified GOP hero, while the right has pretty much ignored those three Georgia guys. I guess that's progress, of a sort. "We don't want to kill people for their skin color, only for their political beliefs."
     
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  22. russ

    russ Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Canton,NY
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You misspelled race traitors.
     
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  23. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    New Zealand
    This is a good point actually - why aren't they super upset about those guys?
     
  24. russ

    russ Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Canton,NY
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Publicize the wins.Minimize the losses.
     
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  25. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The two cases were very different. Think about the judge’s instructions in the KR trio. The defense could call the victims rioters and looters. KR went to a chaotic situation. I the Arbery murder, it happened on a peaceful street.
     

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