Bitcoin, Blockchain, Battlestar Galactica

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Cascarino's Pizzeria, Feb 5, 2019.

  1. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Hmm - i wouldn't be so sure this time around.

    FTX looks like a run on the mill fraud/ponzi - it's just the scale that is unusual

    Nowhere similar to 2008
     
  2. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Farmington State Bank in Washington state is a small bank. There are only 25 banks smaller than it in the entire United States. It pretty much only does loans to the farmers of the local community right on the Idaho border, and it's run out of a one room building smaller than my apartment. And FTX invested more than $11 million into this bank worth only half that.

    We don't know why yet, but this is a very money-laundering kind of move.
     
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  3. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How can a bank be worth only $5M???? That’s less than 20 mortgages!
     
  4. Mach1

    Mach1 Member+

    Jun 27, 2004
    Acworth, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, not anymore...

    For a decade, Farmington's bank held around $10 million in deposits. In the third quarter this year, deposits jumped to $84 million – 85% of which came from just four accounts, according to FDIC data cited by the Times.
     
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  5. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I suspect grayscale will have to be wound up.

    sceptical if the 600k bitcoins still exist in custody or whether they were gambled away
     
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  6. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    No, the "didn't do any crimes because it was technically not illegal" is the similarity. Hardly any Wall St. titans paid for 2008. And it'll be interesting to see if SBF does.
     
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  7. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Coppola has a very good article on how the Crypto ponzi developed and exploded in the last 3 years. The failure to make serious inroads into retail is why it has imploded - there just isn't enough actual cash there.

    Unsurprisingly, crypto people have been selling up in droves. For crypto investors to cash out their extraordinary gains, there must be real money in the system - dollars, euros, yen, pounds. But the crypto system, unlike the traditional finance system, is unable to create real money. It can create tokens that represent dollars, euros, yen etc, but these aren't accepted for real-world transactions such as purchasing condos in the Bahamas. So the crypto system needs inflows of real money. The more it grows, the more real money it must attract.

    ....

    There's already substantial evidence that the crypto space is infested with frauds, scams and ponzis. But I would go further. The entire crypto ecosystem is ponzi. The whole thing depends on ever more people parting with their savings and wages to pay the lunatic returns promised by the platforms to people who can provide the liquidity they so desperately need. No wonder platforms like FTX chase market share and insist that any problems are just "liquidity crises". The more people they can attract, the more liquidity they have and thus the longer they can survive. ​

    https://www.coppolacomment.com/2022/11/the-entire-crypto-ecosystem-is-ponzi.html
     
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  8. chaski

    chaski Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 20, 2000
    redacted
    Club:
    Lisburn Distillery FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Turks and Caicos Islands
    Apocalypse now for crypto.
     
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  9. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Adding retail would only prolong the con. What they need to actually make it work is to connect it to the real world. You need to be able to buy pizzas and cars and houses with it and vise versa. But you can't, and in fact attempts to do this early on were rebuffed by crypto holders. Because if you can buy stuff with it (ignoring all the technical reasons this is problematic) then the value of crypto will be tied to stuff, be tied to the dollar. If it wasn't, then you can do an arbitrage between the two monies and suck the wealth out of crypto. Because of that, if crypto was actually money then line not go up. And the holders of crypto want line go up. It didn't matter that the economics would make it impossible that most people would see a real return. Maybe they thought they were smarter than other investors. Maybe they thought future world would fix that problem.

    I'm going to damn the field of crypto in the worst way - it isn't even good enough to be a ponzi. It isn't finance, although it plays at at. It's a collectable. A trinket. A tulip. A beanie baby. It's just a beanie baby world where people bought and sold contracts for future purchases, loaning out toys, and even receipts for particular toys. But it can never be more than "money out is slightly less than money in" no matter what kind of beanie baby derivative you invent.
     
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  10. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and Washington Times have all been treating SBF with kid gloves, presenting him as some sort of accidentally embarrassed visionary or victim of his eccentricities.

    I get it. News media lives by access, and you can't get access if you disparage the gateholders. But the problem is they get captured along the way, and are still buddy-buddy with him.

    It's over. You can go after him now. Take off those rose-colored glasses.
     
  11. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Yeah that was her point - because Crypto delivers no actual value, it must be a 'greater fool' ponzi

    Institutional money headed for the doors as soon as the bull run of easy money was over - SBF was trying to get to the retail cash - that is why they were doing the FDIC scam
     
  12. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    A "greater fool" situation isn't a ponzi, it's just a bubble. No one was investing in Madoff thinking that they were going to later sell to someone else for more.
     
  13. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    That is strictly true in the first example she gives i.e. you lose all your money buying bitcoin at the top in '18, then have to HODL for the next run up. That can happen with any illiquid asset.

    But she is talking about the current ecosystem which was driven by yield, defi, cefi, tokenisation etc

    Basically the 'returns' are just the capital of the greater fools. Now those people have left, there is no liquidity other than ponzi coins like Tether. The ecosystem is realistically insolvent.
     
  14. MattR

    MattR Member+

    Jun 14, 2003
    Reston
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You must live in some flyover county. That's 5, maybe 6 mortgages in Fairfax County.
     
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  15. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Here is another way of looking at it - Gerard is one of the top crypto sceptics

     
  16. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    COASTAL ELITIST!
     
  17. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, I think you’re the anomaly.
     
  18. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Another one bites the dust. I should drive over to Jersey City to pick over their office furniture.

    Distressed crypto firm BlockFi has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in the United States Bankruptcy Court for the District of New Jersey following the implosion of putative acquirer FTX.

    In the filing, the company indicated that it had more than 100,000 creditors, with liabilities and assets ranging from $1 billion to $10 billion.


    https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/11/28/blockfi-files-for-bankruptcy-as-ftx-fallout-spreads.html
     
  19. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    The BlockFi insolvency includes interesting details on it's 'bailout' from FTX

    There seems to be a 250m line of credit from FTX US to BlockFi which gave it enough liquidity to keep trading. Matt Levine covers this in his latest newsletter. i.e. so long as everyone knew BlockFi would not run out of money, everyone left their money in.

    However what is strange is that the loan appears to be 250m in FTX's ponzi token rather than actual money

    I am beginning to agree with a previous article that the BlockFi bailout may have been a way to steal the real money out of FTX US and Blockfi and replace it with ponzi coins

    So in simple terms BlockFi has a bank run but has real assets. FTX US has real assets which SBF can't so easily steal because it is US jurisdiction. So FTX US advances real money via line of credit to BlockFi. BlockFi then does transactions with Alameda which take the real money out of Blockfi and replace with FTX ponzi coins

    end result is that BlockFi & FTX US have been stripped.
     
  20. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
  21. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    This discussion from Coppola about the supposed safety of Nexo gets to the heart of the ponzi question

    When you are creating yield in magic beans there is inevitably both a liquidity and insolvency problem. There is no way to automatically redeem your magic beans for cash.

     
  22. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    SBF gave darkly to Republicans because reporters are all "super liberal" and didn't wanna be hassled. :rolleyes:

    Bankman-Fried was very public about giving to Democrats, even appearing on NBC’s Meet the Press Reports to discuss his left-leaning donations with host Chuck Todd before the 2022 midterms. But Bankman-Fried’s donations to Republicans were done secretly, according to the former crypto billionaire, because most reporters are “super liberal.”

    “All my Republican donations were dark. And the reason, was not for regulatory reasons, it’s because reporters freak the f#ck out if you donate to a Republican because they’re all super liberal. And I didn’t want to have that fight so I just made all the Republican ones dark,” Bankman-Fried said on the call, claiming he was the “second or third biggest” donor to Republicans in 2022.


    https://gizmodo.com/ftx-sam-bankman-fried-sbf-secret-donations-republicans-1849834727
     
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  23. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    100%

    It's comical. I saw an article I think on WaPo about Caroline Ellison that was equally embarassing talking about her personal interests and growing up as a math whiz and etc ...

    Feels like they have connections that are protecting them or somehow, they still fall for the selfless altruism farce that he has actually already admitted to being an acting job.
     
  24. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    This is a good analysis of one aspect of the FTX fraud

    It seems Alameda could trade on FTX against the customers without suffering margin calls / providing sufficient collateral

    FTX, like other crypto platforms and some conventional equity or commodity services, offered users “margin,” or loans, that they could use to make trades. However, these loans are generally collateralized – that is, users put up other funds or assets to back their borrowing. If the value of that collateral drops, or a margin trade loses enough money, the user’s collateral will be sold and the exchange will use that money to pay off the initial loan.

    Liquidating bad margin positions is fundamental to keeping asset markets solvent. Exempting Alameda from these standards would give it huge advantages, while exposing other FTX users to immense hidden risks. Alameda could have kept losing positions open until they turned around, while competing users were closed out. Alameda was also in theory free to lose more money on FTX than it was able to pay back, leaving a hole where customer funds had been.

    The exemption could be considered criminal from a number of angles. Above all, it means that FTX as a whole was fraudulently marketed. Rather than the even playing field an exchange is meant to be, it was a barrel full of customers.

    Above them all, with shotgun poised, was Alameda Research.​


    https://www.coindesk.com/layer2/2022/11/30/ftxs-collapse-was-a-crime-not-an-accident/
     
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  25. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Despite having no margin calls, despite having perfect knowledge of what traders were doing, despite having the ability to take advantage of any arbitrage situation as soon as it appeared, despite being able to front-run transactions, despite having among the largest pools of money and crypto to deal with... they still lost money on the trading desk. Lots of it.

    All the crypto trading firms are in the same boat. Because they make most of their money from loans, and there is one group that desperately needs big loans in hard money because it's difficult for them to get loans from real banks. And that's the miners. Who are all losing money. Real money. So there's nothing now to pay out paper gains.

    But what makes Alameda so funny is they were losing in these Monopoly money games (and big!) years ago when the market was going up. They just plain morons.
     
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