Birmingham - Villa question (R)

Discussion in 'Referee' started by kopiteinkc, Sep 17, 2002.

  1. kopiteinkc

    kopiteinkc Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 1, 2000
    Shawnee
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Ok, in that match yesterday the Villa defender takes a throw in back to his goalie. The goalie apparently touched the ball with his foot and it goes in. Own goal. Correct call.

    If he had not touched it and the ball went straight in the goal from the throw would that have been a corner to Birmingham?
     
  2. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    My guess is Villa retakes the throw-in.
     
  3. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, the correct call would have been a corner. The ball cannot be thrown into the goal, either for or against from a throw in. The logic being that the ball was last intentionally handled and, as we all know, an intentional hand ball cannot be a goal.

    In this case a corner would have been awarded since the ball went over the goal line (end line) last touched by the defending team, in accordance with the law about not allowing a goal scored directly from a throw in.
     
  4. blech

    blech Member+

    Jun 24, 2002
    California
    Yes, the correct call is a corner. The throw-in is like an indirect kick. A goal cannot be scored directly. Like any indirect kick, if the ball goes into the goal without touching a second player, you essentially ignore the goalposts and award the free kick for the ball going over the goalline. Usually this will be a goal kick, since the offense has usually shot. But, where it's the defense (as in this case, or perhaps on a pass back to the goalie following an offside call), then it's a corner.
     
  5. blech

    blech Member+

    Jun 24, 2002
    California
    I got to watch a replay of this game this evening. They showed the goal several times, and for the life of me I remain unconvinced that the goalie touched the ball. It sure looks like the ball just skidded under his foot. Having seen the play, I say it should have been a corner kick. But, it was a tough call as close as it was, and clearly one of the stranger goals we're going to see in the Premiere League this season.
     
  6. kevbrunton

    kevbrunton New Member

    Feb 27, 2001
    Edwardsburg, MI
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I thought the same thing blech. But since Eckleman didn't complain about it not being a goal, either he knows he touched it or he doesn't know it wouldn't have been a goal unless he touched it.
     
  7. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is an interesting question. Did the media ask him if he touched the ball? Sometimes we give players more credit than they merit on their understanding the LOTG.
     
  8. gildarkevin

    gildarkevin Member

    Aug 26, 2002
    Washington, DC
    After the game, Enckelman was quoted as saying that it should have been a corner b/c the ball didn't touch his boot.

    I think he was engaging in revisionist history myself, but I'm also not going to say one way or another whether he actually touched it.

    I can't recall where the referee was at the time, but he was probably pretty far away, as he probably expected the ball to move forward immediately after Enckelman's control and clearance.
     
  9. blech

    blech Member+

    Jun 24, 2002
    California
    i'm sure the ref was upfield, and again it was an extremely odd looking play. also, the way enckleman ran after the ball once it got past him might have suggested that he touched the ball. he (the goalie) would have been better served to put up his hands nonchalantly to show that he didn't touch the ball. by sprinting after it, it could at least have been interpreted as guilt, although i'm guessing he was just reacting normally in chasing after a ball rolling into his own goal.

    you'll recall as well that one of the field players was given a yellow card for dissent before they restarted play with a kickoff, so i'm guessing they made their best argument, but just couldn't persuade the ref that enckleman missed the ball.
     
  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Pictures posted on another thread seem to indicate pretty clearly that the ref (Elleray) consluted with the AR about whether or not the keeper touched the ball. I'm guessing, as blech said, Elleray was upfield significantly (why shouldn't he be?), so, in effect, it became the AR's call. I suspect the AR did his duty and followed the ball to the goal line (this play does reinforce the importance of that, doesn't it?) and was able to tell Elleray whether the keeper touched it or not.

    Anyway, here's a picture of the two officials conferring:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38259000/jpg/_38259310_ellary300.jpg
     
  11. monop_poly

    monop_poly Member

    May 17, 2002
    Chicago
    There is no way the Ref or AR could have known for sure whether the ball was touched by Ecklemann. It was very close, even on replays, and the ball did not appear to change direction.

    I agree that Ecklemann missed it completely. But, if neither the ref nor the AR are able to determine whether he touched it, what decision do you make then? This is the interesting question.

    Personnally, I think you have to allow the goal on the grounds that "You're in the EPL, for God's sake - you ought to be able to trap the ball."
     
  12. Andyrey

    Andyrey New Member

    Aug 12, 2002
    Raleigh NC
    Wrong. If neither the ref nor the AR were able to determine that Ecklemann touched the ball, then the correct call is a corner kick.
     
  13. blech

    blech Member+

    Jun 24, 2002
    California
    I agree completely with this. The rule requires a second touch before the goal can be scored off a throw in. If you don't see a second touch, you shouldn't be awarding a goal - EPL or u8s or anywhere in between.
     
  14. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No matter where they play, they are humans. Initially I though that Ecklemann touched the ball, but after watching the replays, I'm not so sure. Additionally, I was not totally sure that Elleray knew the correct call based on his reaction immedately afterward, specially around the center circle near the restart/kick off. But that picture makes me think otherwise. (*note - I am sure he knows the laws of the games, just momentarilly forgot that specific regulation).
     

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