Re: Re: Re: writers' market books & revisions/obsessions For smaller pieces, I'd agree (and I have a story I've been working on for years too), but for larger works, I'd get so frustrated without my outlines. If I got through 10 chapters of a 20 chapter work and suddenly found an idea that seemed to work better, I'd get so ticked off re-writing the entire 1st half of the book to incorporate the new idea. With an outline (a result of literally months of free-writing, character research and dialogue practice (something I do where I write at least 10 pages of straight dialogue in each character's voice in order to get the feel of how a character will talk)) I know there won't be as many surprises mid-writing so that I can concentrate on the direction I want the characters to go. It also allows me to skip ahead if a particular chapter is giving me fits. I know this isn't the best way for some writers, but I'd be lost without my outlines. JMac
well EXCUSE ME that some of you seem to think my writing is sooooo bad. It can't possibly be worse than Jewel's f'd up poetry. FYI, I wrote for 2 college newspapers, took several writing classes and wrote for 3 newspapers (2 daily, 1 weekly) after college!
Just being a diva, I think. Nobody said anything so s/he assumes we're all hateful snobs. Jewel is a terrible poet, that's certainly true.
There was an interview on MTV where Jewel got all pissy because Kurt Loder pointed out to her that "casualty" is not the noun form of "casual". Classic. Re: Aimer's livejournal I haven't read it so I have nothing to say about it. But I'm sure it's creative.
Afraid Jmac and I have to take "credit" for that, though why someone felt the need to displace their anger across thread and forum, I haven't a clue. https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=106175#post106175
Now that's funny, and qualifies as great comedy writing in my book. I'm not sure of you guys' history with her, and I'm not sure I want to know, but "dickmilk chugger" is pure gold.
I, personally, have always steered clear of many writing classes and get togethers, etc. because of the overwhelming sense of arrogance that so many writers have, or at least the ones I've encountered. Much like I did in drama. Or art, when I was majoring in it back at college.
Yeah, that's mostly my fault for her coming back. It was in a thread on free for all where she was getting slammed for being a shameful self-promoter, so I mentioned her comment earlier in this thread over there. I have no history with her, it was all part of the gag going on in that thread. She apparently took it all too seriously. JMac
well I was going to say that it was a comment made elsewhere, but the link is there now. Someone called me a racist in my journal comments because I was going off about the ghetto Walmart in Panorama City. I had to hit the delete button on that one. I have a friend who is Filipino, he likes to say "i'm not racist, I'm an equal opportunity hater" I don't think anyone is hateful snobs, for the record.
Now that we're done with the Aimer segue... How do you generally begin a new story, especially one of novel length? What I mean is, do you create a character (complete with looks, strengths, faults, name) or a setting, or write an outline (chapter 1, our protagonist finds a sword embedded in a boulder...)? I seem to always begin with maps. I doodle a map on graph paper, inventing the place in which the story happens. Here's the current example (it's larger than full screen, be forewarned): http://whirlwindproductions.com/opk/opk_map3.gif How about you?
That's interesting. I can see where that would be essential for fantasy/SF. I wonder how it works for mundane fiction... As a digression, anyone know if Faulkner sketched out Yoknawpatawpha (sp? obviously) early on, or is that one map of it something he made up after awhile? For me (shortstory length here) it's best just to start writing. Have characters doing something, and see where it goes. Then maps/sketches come in handy later for getting out of the messes I've made.
FOr me, I usually think the story through in my head for a long period of time. Then I start writing. With jmy style lately, I usually manufacture a setting first, and thlt the story circulate about the feeling of the place. i usually focus on one objecvt and then move to a wider setting. Characters are a second or third paragraph thing(and second and third in the order of creation) Iget very sick of the "MFA rules" that you'll see in the first paragraphs of the The wrost of which is the embedding of usually three characters' names in the first paragraph and establishing a direction for the story. This reminds me of a journalist's lead.I do enouugh of that all day already.
Any "books on writing" you recommend (or warn away from?) I've read the following: Orson Scott Card, "How to Write Fantasy & SF". Recommend. OSC is brilliant. Diana Wynne Jones, "The Tough Guide to Fantasyland". Recommend, sorta. It's helpful in reminding you of the tired, overused plots, character archetypes, and so on. there are others... I'll look them up and add them later...
an execration upon writing books <screed> I am of the opinion that one of the first things you should do if you want to write for publication is destroy all copies of how-to-write books that currently clutter up your shelves. Everything you might learn from them can better be learned by just reading and studying writers you admire--Ender's Game itself, for example, will teach you more about writing books like it than a how-to book by Scott Card. You can't learn how to write from reading a book about how to write. You can only learn to write from reading books by good writers and working to see how they do it. Then you go try to do it yourself. </screed> That said, writing books often have neat anecdotes in them which serve to make the whole uphill slog a little less lonely.
I just start writing and often try to follow my professor's advice of starting with a good first sentence and go from there...
"About" Question "What do you write about?" What's your answer? I hate that question and usually say "stuff." At a recent job interview I was asked: "what do you write about...science fiction, historical fiction...?" Obviously, I couldn't say "stuff" this time so I said "some science fiction...but I don't want to get into specifics...whatever I write I place as much importance on how I tell a story as well as what I tell...that's also my approach to my writing at work..."
Marty's was on State near Liberty, right across from the old Borders (where I also used to work, back before they were a faceless conglomerate). The space is now occupied by a T-shirt shop, I think. And they did have damn fine sweaters. I graduated from UM in '91. It is interesting that we're all clustered here. We should get statisticians and actuaries involved to figure out what it means...
Both of Gardner's books (the titles are slipping my mind at the moment) are excellent - at least if you're writing so-called 'serious' or 'literary' fiction (and I realize that term, as well as the very idea, is more than a little condescending, but I'll let it be for now). I look back at them every now and then. I've heard that Annie Lamott's 'Bird by Bird' is pretty good as far as 'inspirational' writing books go, though I haven't read any more than a chapter assigned to one of my classes. She actually was one of the seminar leaders the summer I went to Bread Loaf and I remember that her kid - who she writes all about in this book - was always running round. I find myself gravitating to writers' biographies and, in particular, diaries - not because they're all that great at explaining the nuts and bolts of writing, but because I get to see that people I admire like Gide and Cocteau and Frisch and Musil and Nabokov and Hemingway and loads of others also spent days and days wondering if they'd ever write anything decent again. If you're searching for 'inspiration', I can't recommend highly enough Rilke's 'Letters to a Young Poet'.
Not to disparage the quality of the sweaters at Marty's, but I believe I bought my fine sweaters at a different place. I remember the name Marty's menswear, but I can't quite place it. I assume it was up near Jason's Sandwiches. There was a cafe on the corner of State and Liberty. But that could describe half the corners in town. I am old enough to remember the old Borders, which was two-stories and really a nook in a hole in the wall near the State Theater.. They always put out two or three carts full of books on the street to make sure that the free flow of sidewalk traffic was duly interrupted. They moved to the new shiny location on Liberty in my junior year. I too liked the older version better. I'll just check to see if you know these two CW teachers (These were the two I took classes with before I opted out of the workshop setting)... Alyson Hagy who was a prof; Marie Ashley an MFA student, may have been a first-year grad student in 1990-1991. A stunning redheaded poet. If you'd seen her, you'd remember. Now I fully expect yoiu to say, "Yeah, I know her. She's my wife. Shut up."
I'm taking a slow Friday afternoon to catch up on a lot of things I haven't read but meant to. Really liked the Alex Shakar interview.