Not a tease, just fact. For a message board about sport, there are some remarkably well spoken/written posts here on a regular basis. I've always thought it is unfortunate that the USA can't sustain a well written, intelligent soccer publication. Matchday gave it a shot, but was a bit before it's time. Soccer America is terribly uninteresting. Aside from the Metro's sporadic The 'Stars & Beyond and the Rev's defunct Pictures Of Chairman Mao, MLS 'zines flat-out suck. Maybe it's just me and my circle of soccer buddies, but I feel like we're a bit more sophisticated than most baseball or hockey fans, and I wish there were some sort of soccer media that reflected that. OK...you writin' nerds can get back to yer yappin.
Good conversation here....much I want to add, but first I've gotta finish the rough version of my site (w/ some writing), which should be up today...hopefully.
I've always thought of getting some like-minded people together and doing a website with original articles and writing, just for fun. There's a website, and I wish I remembered where it was, but it was this guy doing CD reviews. His reviews were very detailed essays that really hit the nerve of how and why music fills your life. I'd love to do something in that ilk. I should probably improve my HTML skills...
That was my original problem, my voice is too verbose. Kneejerk reaction-imitate the least verbose style (Hemingway). Now I'm comfortable being a wordy bastard. Hope an audience someday will be as well. NGG-journaling has always been great for me to "hone my chops." Plus its fun to look back at stuff I wrote in HS and revel in what a weenie I was.
One site I hit a lot because it has a collection of useful first-timer articles is Holly Lisle's site: http://www.hollylisle.com/ Then click on "Writers" for the list of articles. I'm a professional web designer. (Portfolio at my site listed below.) Let me know if you need a hand. http://www.whirlwindproductions.com
I used to be pretty regular (5 or so years ago) with second-generation Language school zines due that I found due to very loose connections with people associated with people associated with the SUNY Buffulo Poetics program (where I never, ever went), but that ended when I offended my contemporaries with an essay saying that we all sound like the literary equivalent of cover bands. That didn't go over well, and some of those people can really hold a grudge. I also had good luck with Exquisite Corpse (before it went on-line and I lost contact with a lot of folks) and there's the Chiron Review in Kansas that I like a lot (mostly stand-up poetry, but it doesn't suck too often). And poems allegedly forthcoming in the New York Quarterly, which for all I know is defunct or something. Those of you who are into various manifestations of popular culture might want to check out my friends E-zine, the new issue of which is due any time now... http://www.habitsofwaste.wwu.edu I have a review under my screen name, and an interview with novelist Alex Shakar and an review of Our Band Could Be Your Life under my non-screen name.
I wrote for my HS newspaper too, and I was a weenie. I think I was the only editorial writer in our history to have 2 editorial editors. I still don't think it was meant as a compliment. My weenie-ness ended the day I got the assignment to cover a kid in our school who was murdered, and I had to write the front page story. I went to his funeral, interviewed his friends, talked to his teachers (along the way realizing that I knew the guy- he sat behind me in Physics a year earlier and we used to hang in the same group in gym class). Horrible story (killed by a drug dealer who just got out on bail after the kid called the cops because he saw him dealing drugs). I think it was the first time I realized what pressure was (not trying to sound brave here, honestly). Most people never read the paper, but when a kid dies (even in a school of 2800 where no one really knows more than 5% of anyone), it's news. I think my Journalism ended with that story (I did a good job with it, but it was too "heavy" a thing for a 17 year old to be thinking about).
Here's an idea; I was scanning through Yahoogroups the other day looking for a Writing Workshop mailing list. Most of the ones I found were either defunct or populated by a bunch of teeny-bopper 2nd grade poetry types. Would anyone here be interested in getting a Creative Writing workshop together? Basically a place where writers could post their work, get feedback and revise etc. I'll look into it some more, and if there's interest, I'll set something up. JMac
I was bored, so I set up the Yahoo groups list before I knew if there will be any interest. For those interested in the idea, it's located here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WCWorkshop/ I think if we all promote it and start it off with some decent activity, it could be pretty big! JMac
writers' market books & revisions/obsessions What does everyone think of the Writer's Market series? The books, especially Poet's Market, are good sources but the information can be overwhelming. My biggest writing problem is obsessing and, possibly, overwriting. I'm still working on stories and poems that I started 5 years ago.
I'm pretty crap at workshops - a definite handicap when you're trying to do a creative writing masters...but I'll give it a shot.
Just out of curiosity, but where are you doing your Masters? I'm looking to do my graduate work in creative writing as well, but not too many schools seem to have a program. The one I found (and love) is at the University of Maryland, but with the success of the Terps hoops team, they have become VERY strict in who they admit. (due to the increased interest.) JMac ps: Workshops are easy if we get enough people. Nobody is going to shred anything to pieces, I'm sure, and on the giving of advice end, I don't think anyone is expecting someone to be the big expert in all areas. We might have people that are grammar freaks that could point out grammatical weaknesses. We might have people that just post what they liked and didn't like. Whether the feedback is used or not; it's always valuable.
Re: writers' market books & revisions/obsessions I get the same way with overwriting sometimes. The best thing to do is to get a VERY detailed outline in place before you start to write the piece. I used to just start writing with a vague idea of what I wanted to do, and, inevitably, I'd come up with something different and "better" halfway through. As for Writer's Market, it is a very useful tool, but not exactly for a beginning writer. I got one back in 1999, before I started writing seriously (at the oh so ancient age of 19!). Basically, it told me how to submit polished work, and at the time, I had no polished work, and I wasn't capable of creating any at that point. JMac
from what i understand there are a ton of post grad creative writing schools. i know my schook (georgia state u) has masters and phd. and of course there's iowa...
Jacen, US News did a ranking of the country's creative writing programs once, in 1997. THey still have it on their site, but aparently they've gone to pay for the articles recently. But it contained a ton of programs. I've been looking for a writter's group, and I'll likely use the site.
Someone had a private website up about Creative Writing MFA programs in general, and the US News and World Report rankings in particular, which more or less said they weren't worth regarding too highly, because though Iowa (#1 in the rankings) or some of the other top ones (Johns Hopkins, I seem to remember... and Houston were near the top...I think) may have scored high in these 'objective' rankings, there's no guarantee that one of those is the right program for you. An idea which makes perfect sense. So I would say they're a guideline, at best.
Agree, Michael. Not recommending the rankings so much as giving Jacen a list of programs. He seemed to be under the mistaken impression that there are a grand total of 12.
Right now I'm enrolled in the Creative Writing MA program at City College of New York, though I've only taken two classes there (one each semester), and haven't been going since last fall (didn't do any classes this spring.) I applied there because it was in NYC, where I wanted to be, and because one of the top profs in the program is a guy who has worked with one author I'm a huge fan of (the Swiss playwright/author Max Frisch), and edited the published diaries of another one of the authors I'm really, really into (Robert Musil, author of the brilliant, you-must-read-it 'The Man Without Qualities') - so I thought it would be well worth taking his seminar. That's all well and good, but his classes are also very popular and no more than 15 or so are allowed in, so I haven't gotten to take his class yet. Instead I ended up in one fiction seminar that was halfway decent, even if the instructor was coming from a totally different place than I am; however, the other one (to be fair, there was a lot of stuff going on in my life at that moment and I didn't give 100%) just didn't do anything for me. I felt the teacher (who'll remain nameless) was more than a bit condescending or...something. Not just towards me either. But whatever. The plain fact of the matter is that I've had to rethink my attitude towards doing a MA in this area, because I've never been too big a fan of writing workshops. (I've also had to rethink whether I wanted it to be at CCNY - it's a nice program with some good instructors, but the program is 100% part-time, with only night classes. I never felt like I was 'in school' at all when I showed up at class at 6:30, spent an hour and a half there, and split.) In a classroom workshop environment - especially at a 'higher level', like grad school, where everyone is trying to prove their mettle, at least a little - there's definitely a pressure to comment in some way - any way - on the stories being submitted. And let's face it - though you're supposed to read the 2 or 3 pieces each week and make a detailed critique of the work for the class, many people either a) don't read the work (I know, because I failed to on some occasions) b) completely miss the point of what the writer is attempting to do, or worse, just ask stupid, fairly meaningless questions about why you wrote this or that or didn't write it; 'why don't you add something about ------?'. It's not exactly the workshopper's fault - it's more the Tyranny of the Workshop, and here's where, in my mind, the insidious sameness of MA/MFA program literature can be traced to. You don't HAVE to listen to your fellow workshoppers when they say 'why don't you write more about -----' (minor character seen for an instant, whom you're happy to leave that way) or 'I'm not sure I like that word/phrase there' when you put it there in fit of whimsy or pique, and you're content with it as it is. You don't have to listen, and this skill of not-listening to everything that comes up in a workshop is one well worth acquiring. In my case, I think I overcompensate, and really don't listen much at all, except maybe to the instructor, and only if he/she's got my interest and respect (I'm a bit individualistic like that). And if that's the case, I ask myself, what's the point of spending the money and showing up? I've found more success in online writing workshops, curiously, because you can critique in a different way than in a classroom. I'm a great fan of quote-cut-paste critiquing. Also, because there's a bit of leisure about it - you can give your full thoughts on someone's work at 9 am or 4 pm or in the middle of the night - there's none of the forced I've-got-to-say-something-here-in-class-so-I'll-find-something-to-nitpick feeling I've gotten from some of the workshops I've been in, which is not so much damaging to the writer, I think, as annoying. I'm still undecided on what I'll do about my MA or MFA, or where I'll do it.
Michael, read one of the stories. I guess we need to establish a protocol for comments, whether to do it on the thread, in a pm, or by the preference of the author. Let me know your preference.I'm going to praise the story quite a bit, so no need to worry. HOw did you set the site up? And what's a good online writer's group?
Re: Re: writers' market books & revisions/obsessions I have found that nothing kills a piece faster than a detailed outline. (Which is not to imply that it doesn't work for you, Jacen.) I sketch out the first few scenes, get to know the characters a bit, and figure out more or less how I want a piece to end, and then I start writing. More outlining than that is wasted effort for me because when (inevitably) other ideas present themselves in the course of the writing, I always go with them because they are coming out of the actual writing rather than the weird kind of hands-off imagining that outlining tends to be. On MFA/MA programs: do not go by reputation. There is only one good way to choose a workshop or MFA/MA program, and that is to find out if the writers you admire teach in one and then apply to that one. If you decide to limit your geographical area, that's another story, but if your one pure desire is to find the place where you want to be, I think the only way is to find the place where the people you tend to emulate already are. Then you can go there, find out they're all pricks, and strike out on your own. Or you can go there, be mentored, and have your workshop stories immediately rise to the top of the slush piles because you can get a recommendation from (insert hot writer here). I say this as an ex-student in workshops run by Iowa Poetry Prize winners at the University of Denver, which did me not a damn bit of good because the instructors and I were just interested in different things. On working on a piece for what appears to be too long: I wrote a story in 1993, spent the next eight years periodically going back to it, revising, tinkering, and putting it in the mail again so I could collect more rejection slips. This year it appears for the first time in a chapbook of my short fiction, and it's the editor's favorite story. I don't know what lesson anyone should take from that, but I thought I'd mention it. Michael K.: Max Frisch and Musil are both freaking great. Glad to hear someone mention them, especially Frisch. Apologies for verbosity. I gave a reading tonight and am radiating excess energy, I guess. Alex
On workshopping, I agree that the art of deciding what and who to listen to is VERY important. For example, I had a creative writing class last semester where I didn't care what the prof said. I didn't like his suggestions, and I thought his revision ideas made my work weaker. There were 2 other students in the class however that always gave great insights and ideas on what they reviewed. That's why I like workshopping (and set up the mailing list, even though it still only has 2 people hint hint), most of the feedback will likely not be all that helpful, but when you find one or two people in that group that consistantly give strong ideas and feedback, it can be extremely beneficial. On creative writing programs, I need to stay in the area I'm in now. In those confines, I can then select the program I'm most comfortable with (a combination of affordability, acceptance and program itself). Ideally, I'd like to stay in Maryland, for family reasons. If anyone finds a link to any lists for CW graduate programs, please pass it along here! JMac