Interesting point. That doesn't make sense. I guess Bayern believes that it can't sell more than that amount of tickets. Any pics of the new Bayern stadion? Thanks.
Ok, don't mean to sound like a jerk, but doesn't every big club in Europe have plenty of foreign talent...ie. Arsenal (4 English players,) Real Madrid, Barca, Celtic, Rangers, LFC, Manure, Cheski, and so on. The bigger, richer clubs can afford to throw around money to improve their club. I have been told there is an anti-immigrant/Pro German player feeling that is very real in the Bundesliga. I know that every countrymen wants to see their club with lots of natives, but you want the best players availabe, right?
The problem in Germany is that we ave over 60% foreign players in the league, what sets the record for a european top-league. And who said that they improved the level of the league? The ironic thing is that, since younger players are coming out of the german youth-system the level begins to increase again.
Re: Interesting point. http://www.allianz-arena.org/en/news/archiv/12250.php Just scroll all the way to the bottom to find the gallery link. The German-language section would have more recent pics, though.
Wow!!! Thanks JJ the stadium is going to be awesome! Soccerfreak....I didn't realize the Bundesliga had gotten that much out of control. I will insert foot into mouth...lol.
We're totally off the thread subject and this subject has already been hotly debated in other boards, but .... Your assessment of MLS is waaaayyyy off. You obviously do not watch any MLS games. If you actually did, you would be very surprised at the quality. Most people, who try to be unbiased and regualarily see both MLS matches and big 4 Euro leauge matches, say that MLS is on a level of the lower half of the top league (whether that's the BL, Serie A, EPL, or La Liga), on the level of the top teams in the second division. And it's all subjective, of course. But just as one tiny example - this past weekend. I watched the Bayern/1860 derby. 1860 was slightly better (and unluckily lost), but the quality of the football was pure crap. Both teams struggled to string together more than two passes, and there were continual dumbass mistakes, and few moments of indiviual brilliance. The game was very boring and almost a waste of time to watch (I'm a long time Bundesliga fan, so I watched anyway). Contrast that with the MLS cup, played on Sunday (San Jose beat Chicago 4-2). The quality was very high. There was great passing, dribbling, running without the ball, creativity, ball fakes, crunching defensive tackles, brilliant goals, etc etc etc. In other words, it was great football. It was pure excitement, and the time absolutely flew by. I could not get enough of it. Right now, from the Bundesliga, only Bayer, Bremen and Stuttgart can claim to play superior football to MLS. Donovan is arguably the best player in MLS, and he would most certainly do well in the Bundesliga now.
The difference between Bayern to Chelsea, ManU, Arsenal, Real Madrid and Barcelona is that they pay much more for their proven stars. Soccerfeak is right on the point that once there seems to be a sudden influx of youth players the level of football in the Bundesliga has risen.
you're quite right that this has been hashed to death...but I'm an american who's been living now in germany a year and a half. I had season tix to DC United continously since the start of the league. This summer I was back in the states for a couple months and watched every game live or televised that was on. and I love MLS, and would never denegrate it...but, my question is...are you saying that only three teams in the 1.liga play more 'entertaining' soccer than MLS teams or that only Leverkusen, Bremen, Stuttgart are 'better' in quality than MLS?? those are possibly two different things, I think. also, I think you (and you mention that you've only seen German football live, not just on FSW, once) may overestimate the relative quality of MLS. again, comparison is subjective and speculative (what bigsoccer is all about!). you use the example of the muenchen derby. it was a typical derby...for any country. rugged, ragged play. that's why you use derby as an adjective sometimes... you know if someone says it was a derby game...that the game wasn't pretty. so maybe it wasn't entertaining...but are you on the basis of that suggesting MLS teams are superior to those teams over a full season? with our short benches, lack of reserve teams, and bargain basement price players?? to cite just one example---taylor twellman... was a player who couldn't get near the Lions first team...yet has ripped through the scoring charts in both his years in MLS. quality-wise, do you believe he'd be a leading scorer in the 1.liga? Conversely, last years MLS Cup was dreadfully played and a real yawn...does that mean MLS was lower quality? for me it was just a typical final with both teams not wanting to give up anything at the back so they didn't risk much...def. not entertaining, but not nec. a lower standard of play. i'm a season ticket holder for mainz 05...a 2.liga team...and can tell you without question that I believe fsv would tear through MLS---over a season---in a one off anything's possible, obviously. a MLS team would certainly have injuries and with the salary cap...replacing the top players is always a problem in MLS...the bench players making league min. would flounder even in the oberliga IMHO. and mainz is only an also ran every year (except this year!). MLS teams might be the level of the 2.liga...in quality---over a full season they may struggle even with that level. entertainment is a different matter all together...watching a couple of matches a week on FSW makes it easy to think you can judge a league---when you see the teams here live, you can see we still have a ways to go in america. (we'll get there), but keep in mind that tactics and all sorts of things can make for an ugly game---that doesn't mean the quality of the players is lower.
you're quite right that this has been hashed to death...but I'm an american who's been living now in germany a year and a half. I had season tix to DC United continously since the start of the league. This summer I was back in the states for a couple months and watched every game live or televised that was on. and I love MLS, and would never denegrate it...but, my question is...are you saying that only three teams in the 1.liga play more 'entertaining' soccer than MLS teams or that only Leverkusen, Bremen, Stuttgart are 'better' in quality than MLS?? those are possibly two different things, I think. also, I think you (and you mention that you've only seen German football live, not just on FSW, once) may overestimate the relative quality of MLS. again, comparison is subjective and speculative (what bigsoccer is all about!). you use the example of the muenchen derby. it was a typical derby...for any country. rugged, ragged play. that's why you use derby as an adjective sometimes... you know if someone says it was a derby game...that the game wasn't pretty. so maybe it wasn't entertaining...but are you on the basis of that suggesting MLS teams are superior to those teams over a full season? with our short benches, lack of reserve teams, and bargain basement price players?? to cite just one example---taylor twellman... was a player who couldn't get near the Lions first team...yet has ripped through the scoring charts in both his years in MLS. quality-wise, do you believe he'd be a leading scorer in the 1.liga? Conversely, last years MLS Cup was dreadfully played and a real yawn...does that mean MLS was lower quality? for me it was just a typical final with both teams not wanting to give up anything at the back so they didn't risk much...def. not entertaining, but not nec. a lower standard of play. i'm a season ticket holder for mainz 05...a 2.liga team...and can tell you without question that I believe fsv would tear through MLS---over a season---in a one off anything's possible, obviously. a MLS team would certainly have injuries and with the salary cap...replacing the top players is always a problem in MLS...the bench players making league min. would flounder even in the oberliga IMHO. and mainz is only an also ran every year (except this year!). MLS teams might be the level of the 2.liga...in quality---over a full season they may struggle even with that level. entertainment is a different matter all together...watching a couple of matches a week on FSW makes it easy to think you can judge a league---when you see the teams here live, you can see we still have a ways to go in america. (we'll get there), but keep in mind that tactics and all sorts of things can make for an ugly game---that doesn't mean the quality of the players is lower.
Re: Interesting point. XXL-pics: http://www.ib-opatz.de/xtra/exkarlibua/pages/page_24.html http://www.ib-opatz.de/xtra/exkarlibua/pages/page_23.html http://www.ib-opatz.de/xtra/exkarlibua/pages/page_21.html main site (german only): http://www.exkarlibua.de.vu/ jonam, http://www.schwatzgelb.com
Mainz plays entertaining and quite succesful since the 2001/2002 season wile setting the points-record for a not-promoted team.So I wouldn´t call Mainz an also run. The point of entertainment is always a thing of it´s own. I compared the MLS to the Austrian Bundesliga cause the Austrian League is also called the "Operettenliga", because of it´s sometimes entertaining but tacticaly very poor style. Both leagues have in common, that if there is one player that outrages, he can win the games for his teams completely by himself, just like LD. People just can´t stop him, cause they are too bad individualy and, what is even more important, tacticaly. Sometimes it seems as if the american viewers are even happy with the low tactical level of the league cause it looks more entertaining, but only on the first look. I mean, have you seen the Stuttgart-ManU game some month ago? In the first half was a very low number of chances, but it was still very entertaining cause of the great tactical game by both teams, especially by Stuttgart. Thats also the reason why many american players need a lot time to get used to the style in the Bundesliga.
you won't get an argument from me that mainz 05 is quality! in american english, also-ran, can mean almost but not quite, (3 times in 4yrs) so I was using that term to demonstrate the fact that even a team that can't quite gain promotion would probably rip through MLS. also i'd be a bit careful in generalizing that american viewers enjoy tactically naive soccer. i'm american and agree wholeheartedly with your other assessments, to be honest---and have many friends that feel the same way. if you meant the casual fan, then maybe you're right...but then you'd have to say the same for other countries' viewers as well, most likely. it seemed to me that JeffS was using the fact that there were alot of chances and goals in the MLS Cup to illustrate that MLS is superior to all but 3 bundesliga teams...and i was just trying find out what he meant---quality or if he just finds it more entertaining. for me entertainment is in the eye of the beholder so I don't think it's for me to say what's more entertaining. I will say, though, that often (except for this year) the MLS 'allstar' game has many, many chances and goals, but is almost completely unwatchable from my standpoint because of the lack of tactics and meaning. and a 0-0 hard fought draw, or a low scoring game can be very entertaining, it goes without saying.
QUOTE: You guys have probably not seen Donovan play all that much. I have. I've been extremely impressed with his overall improvement, increased maturity, highly technical skill, and finally his exceptional phyiscal gifts: He has blazing speed and quickness, and has unbelievable endurance. These assets would make him successful in any league in the world. Yes, when he learn min. of one season in a strong league with a straight table. The MLS play in a season anytimes vs. the same team, so they know their opponents. OK, he play a super World Cup, but he must show his power over some seasons and vs. a lot of teams. Well, I like him, but look on the way of Gregg Berhalter, he is in Cottbus now, and he gets stronger and stronger.
Dortmund the most loyal fans? That's the same group of fans who did the wave with the Ulm players after losing to Ulm in 2000! Schalke once drew 70,000 to the old Parkstadion in 1989, against Blau-Weiß 90 Berlin (anyone remember them?). The occasion was celebrating not being relegated to the third division... Schalke regularly drew 30-50,000 during their second division stints in the 80s, back when the average Bundesliga attendance was in the mid 10,000s, lower 20,000s. 30,000 fans accompanied the team to San Siro in 1997. We know no away games in Bochum, there are always 15,000 Schalke fans there. Every year. We've sold out every game this season, when the visiting team didn't send back tickets three days before gameday, except for the InterToto games. 42,000 season ticket holders. And if anybody says Bayer Leverkusen, also known as the club that didn't use its Champions League final ticket contingent, also known as the club that's been proudly giving thousands of tickets to students for almost 25 years, also known as the club with the lowest average season attendance in the history of the Bundesliga (believe it was 79/80 or so), also known as the club who actually has a policy of not letting fans of other teams onto neutral seats because there are so many of them at every Bayer game...well you get the point. Slaps will be in order.
Thats just a little Sarcasm. I mean, alone the fact that they were their, despite such a horible season, shows their passion. Who said that Bayer04 has the best fans??? The 1.FC Koeln has still ten times more fans than Leverkusen. AT LEAST!!!!!
st. pauli. period. full stop. the club threw a party to celebrate relegation, the free and hanseatic city of hamburg actually imposed a beer tax to help fund the team, and milentor's packed for regionals.
It goes beyond mere entertainment. I've been a Bundesliga fan since the early '80s, when Karl Heinz Rummenigge starred for Bayern (KH Rummenigge is one of my all time favorites). Also, the BL remains my favorite Euro league, even though the EPL, La Liga, and Serie A all generally have superior talent. I like the style in the BL the best, along with the entertainment value. But I still maintain that MLS is creeping up in quality, and is very close to the lower half of the BL, or very close to the upper teams in the 2. BL. The skill, creativity, and tactics in MLS have all become very good, and on any given day, can exceed that of the BL. My example of the MLS cup final being compared to the Bayern / 1860 derby was only one small example of a much larger picture. On that given day, the level of football in MLS was vastly superior to the BL, at least the particular BL game. And I'm talking about tactics, as well as entertainment value. The tactics in the Bayern/1860 game was "stand around and kick down field and tackle hard". I am completely uninterested in American/Euro flame wars, as is so common on other BigSoccer boards. But I definetly wanted to make sure that Germans, non-Americans, or non-MLS fans did not sell MLS or Landon Donovan short, here on this particular thread. Oh, back to the original topic. As for the most loyal fans/biggest stadium in the BL - my top three would be: Dortmund Schalke Hamburg Each one of these have huge stadiums and they really pack 'em in with super loud, loyal fans.
Nothing more to say about. This ranking is true by fans, but by loudness: Schalke Dortmund (....) Hamburg
I've game in Shalke and Dortmund when I was in Germany last year. Being it was my first time to Germany and I’ve been a BVB fan all my life, I would agree that Dortmund has the best fans and with the new nike cornors i'm sure its even better. I really did enjoy the game at Shalke(my brothers team) great fans even better Arena, I still cant get over the fact that they have beer pipe lines that go all over the stadium. That is one of the coolest things I have ever seen
We should rename the thread into "Who has the longest dick?" I mean come on. If you have such a great attendance you always have a huge group of fans who just sit there and watch. You have a whole bunch of glory hunters and people who leave the stadium when they are 1:0 behind, even if there is still 10 minutes left (as happened AufSchalke against Hansa). Or you meet "fans" in the toilet of the "Suedtribuene" in Dortmund, dressed all up in black and yellow and the one guy asks: "Hey what does Borussia mean?" (as happened against Freiburg this season). Don´t get me wrong, I like huge stadiums but I believe if you pack a whole bunch of e.g. Offenbach fans and the same amount of the mentioned fans, everybody knows who will be louder!
Hey, hey, hey, all the fans in Schalke knows about the club and go ever to the games. What's with Luedenscheid i don't know. But that with Borussia is cool, I've seen a quiz show on tv, the man (a super ultra from borussia, he titled himself) was questioned, what Borussia means, he, and his brother (it was allowed phone a person, he was a Borussia fan too,) don't know. We see it with 10 persons (all Schalke fans) and all knew the answer, but this two jack asses not. We lie laughing on the ground. PS: Borussia means Prussia - Preussen -
Dortmund & Kaiserslautern have had great atmospheric grounds for years. Hence the fans make a hell of a racket. Let's face it. If the atmosphere is still top-knotch, people will still come. I mean, why do you go to watch your team in the first place-to yell out and stresses of the week out of your system. And to experience a feeling of being a part of something collective. I think you'll find that HSV's crowds exploded once the stadium was redeveloped as well. I've seen a match there. That ground would have to be one of the best I've been to anywhere in the world. JF
That reminds me of something I've been thinking about for some time. One is about how Prussia influenced the rise of modern Germany. I would admit that I'm not that deeply educated about Germany but I learned that the last important rulers of Prussia became the first important leaders of the unified modern German state. With that in mind, it strikes how so many clubs have the word "Borussia" as part of their names. You wouldn't know if the name refers to 'Gladbach, Dortmund or, heck, Tennis Borussia just on the first read, especially since Westphalia and other parts of the Rhine plain are miles from the lands of Brandenburg, Saxony, Danzig (now Gdansk) and Koeningsburg (now Kaliningrad). Perhaps it was because the clubs were founded not long after the unification that the name still had an emotional attachment to people.