Big Soccer members World Best Player of the Year 1950-2009

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by couper99, Apr 9, 2010.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    So, deciding the 'ESM Player of the Season' winners (theoretical but based firstly on number of votes in total and then on number of monthly inclusions; but for 1994/95 just on number of inclusions in the Team of the Season selections)....

    1994/95 - Paolo Maldini
    1995/96 - Paolo Maldini

    (Note: This, added to the Unicef award for 1993/94 would actually give him a hat-trick! So, like the El Pais awards for Zidane, this would be giving Maldini really the maximum recognition.)
    (* I think for 1994/95 when compiling the overall Player of the Season list I will use Unicef's choice of Litmanen though, and actually interestingly for 1995/96 him and Del Piero are joint 3rd from ESM based on inclusions/votes (3 and 20 respectively each; just behind Maldini and Weah)
    (* I might use Maldini for 1995/96 but I'm not convinced not to name Del Piero, the Unicef award winner for that season, instead)
    (* For 1996/97 as you'll see the Unicef award winner is also a clear winner according to ESM votes too anyway)

    Obviously some reservations about using ESM, on top of what I already mentioned, could be that it favours defenders a bit more and that might be questioned even if the normal awards tend to do the opposite perhaps (it would favour them even more if I used monthly inclusions over total votes as the decider since Thuram would then have more than Beckham in 98/99), plus the fact summer tournaments are definitely not considered. But being voted on by journalists/publications it does sort of make sense to use for comparisons with Ballon d'Or. I'm not 100% convinced it's really better than using UEFA's Club Footballers of the Year and Best Players in Europe though....

    Anyway, continuing to the end:
    (Where non-European wins then European winner in brackets)

    1996/97 - Ronaldo (Fernando Hierro)
    1997/98 - Roberto Carlos (Zinedine Zidane)
    1998/99 - David Beckham
    1999/00 - Luis Figo
    2000/01 - Roberto Carlos (Oliver Kahn, but would have been Alessandro Nesta if favouring inclusions)
    2001/02 - Zinedine Zidane
    2002/03 - Paolo Maldini
    2003/04 - Thierry Henry
    2004/05 - John Terry
    2005/06 - Ronaldinho (Luca Toni, but would have been Carles Puyol if favouring inclusions)
    2006/07 - Didier Drogba (Cristiano Ronaldo)
    2007/08 - Cristiano Ronaldo
    2008/09 - Lionel Messi (Steven Gerrard, but would have been Xavi if favouring inclusions)
    2009/10 - Lionel Messi (Frank Lampard)
    2010/11 - Lionel Messi (Xavi, but would have been Nemanja Vidic if favouring inclusions)
    2011/12 - Lionel Messi (Cristiano Ronaldo)
    2012/13 - Lionel Messi (Phillip Lahm)
    2013/14 - Cristiano Ronaldo
    2014/15 - Lionel Messi (Cristiano Ronaldo, but would have been Branislav Ivanovic if favouring inclusions)
    2015/16 - Luis Suarez (Robert Lewandowski, but would have been Paul Pogba based on inclusions)
    2016/17 - Lionel Messi (Sergio Ramos)
  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    So making the comparisons using ESM from 97/98 (so the Unicef award for all available years, following on from the IOC award):

    European Players of the Season (1970/71 to 2016/17)
    Cristiano Ronaldo x 5
    Johan Cruyff x 2
    Michel Platini x 2
    Lothar Matthaus x 2 (* second one doubtful but allocated on balance of probability from other accolades and ratings around the time - perhaps with no Maradona then Marco van Basten and others might have challenged for it though, particularly if awarded pre-World Cup)
    Paolo Maldini x 2
    Zinedine Zidane x 2
    Johan Neeskens x 1
    Franz Beckenbauer x 1
    Oleg Blokhin x 1
    Rob Rensenbrink x 1
    Alan Simonsen x 1
    Kenny Dalglish x 1
    Hans Krankl x 1
    Peter Shilton x 1
    Paul Breitner x 1
    Karl-Heinz Rummenigge x 1
    Gordon Strachan x 1
    Aleksandr Zavarov x 1
    Paulo Futre x 1
    Ruud Gullit x 1
    Darko Pancev x 1
    Hristo Stoichkov x 1
    Roberto Baggio x 1
    Jari Litmanen x 1
    Alessandro Del Piero x 1
    Fernando Hierro x 1
    David Beckham x 1
    Luis Figo x 1
    Oliver Kahn x 1
    Thierry Henry x 1
    John Terry x 1
    Luca Toni x 1
    Steven Gerrard x 1
    Frank Lampard x 1
    Xavi x 1
    Phillip Lahm x 1
    Robert Lewandowski x 1
    Sergio Ramos x 1

    World Players of the European Season (1970/71 to 2016/17)
    Lionel Messi x 7
    Cristiano Ronaldo x 2
    Johan Cruyff x 2
    Michel Platini x 2
    Paolo Maldini x 2
    Roberto Carlos x 2
    Johan Neeskens x 1
    Franz Beckenbauer x 1
    Oleg Blokhin x 1
    Rob Rensenbrink x 1
    Alan Simonsen x 1
    Kenny Dalglish x 1
    Hans Krankl x 1
    Peter Shilton x 1
    Paul Breitner x 1
    Karl-Heinz Rummenigge x 1
    Gordon Strachan x 1
    Aleksandr Zavarov x 1
    Paulo Futre x 1
    Ruud Gullit x 1
    Lothar Matthaus x 1
    Diego Maradona x 1
    Darko Pancev x 1
    Hristo Stoichkov x 1
    Roberto Baggio x 1
    Jari Litmanen x 1
    Alessandro Del Piero x 1
    Ronaldo x 1
    David Beckham x 1
    Luis Figo x 1
    Zinedine Zidane x 1
    Thierry Henry x 1
    John Terry x 1
    Ronaldinho x 1
    Didier Drogba x 1
    Luis Suarez x 1

    Obviously if using UEFA Club Footballers of the Year and Best Players in Europe then some different one-time winners would be listed as previously mentioned on the thread, and the balance between Messi and C.Ronaldo would be much more even. But I wouldn't have been able to determine the European winner for some seasons anyway.
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    #1653 PuckVanHeel, Feb 26, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018

    Yes I respect your reasoned choices, but was just inquiring on Stoichkov, Ibrahimovic etc. Just to hear your thoughts.

    I tried to put your 1978 to 2017 attempt in the correct timefrimes, where it captures most of the best years of a player. Tried to do this especially because eras are difficult to (fully) compare, with i.e. the fouls per game in Henry's best years 40% higher than in recent EPL years.

    Note that it sometimes differs from my EPL categorization when I did the 'goals + assists per 90 minutes' thing.

    I'm leaving out the ones with only one point - the ones in spoiler

    Show Spoiler
    Trevor Francis 1 1
    Bryan Robson 1 1
    Aleksandr Zavarov 1 1
    Ronald Koeman 1 1
    Peter Schmeichel 1 1
    Chris Waddle 1 1
    Ricardo Carvalho 1 1
    Petr Cech 1 1
    Freddie Ljungberg 1 1
    Paul Scholes 1 1
    Xabi Alonso 1 1
    Harry Kane 1 1
    Juan Mata 1 1
    Manuel Neuer 1 1
    Zbigniew Boniek 1 1
    Maxime Bossis 1 1
    Bruno Conti 1 1
    Johnny Rep 1 1
    Salvatore Bagni 1 1
    Edgar Davids 1 1
    Roy Keane 1 1
    Rui Costa 1 1
    David De Gea 1 1
    Dimitri Payet 1 1

    1975 - 1985 (count started at 1978)

    Michel Platini 22 20 42
    Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 12 14 26
    Kenny Dalglish 12 13 25
    Ruud Krol 9 5 14
    Paolo Rossi 9 5 14
    Kevin Keegan 6 5 11
    Gaetano Scirea 5 3 8
    Paul Breitner 2 3 5
    Johan Cruyff 1 4 5
    Alain Giresse 2 3 5
    Rob Rensenbrink 3 2 5
    Safet Susic 1 3 4
    Liam Brady 3 3
    Giancarlo Antognoni 2 2
    Dominique Rocheteau 2 2

    (Keegan is maybe more a 1970 - 1980 player but 1970 is not where you started)

    1980 - 1990

    Franco Baresi 11 9 20
    Gary Lineker 9 8 17
    Jan Ceulemans 7 5 12
    Preben Elkjaer 7 3 10
    Jean Tigana 4 6 10
    Glenn Hoddle 5 1 6
    Bernd Schuster 2 4 6
    John Barnes 4 4
    Charlie Nicholas 3 3
    Ian Rush 3 3
    Igor Belanov 2 2
    Pierre Littbarski 2 2
    Gordon Strachan 2 2

    1985 - 1995

    Marco van Basten 18 19 37
    Michael Laudrup 17 13 30
    Ruud Gullit 14 12 26
    Dejan Savicevic 12 10 22
    Lothar Matthaus 8 9 17
    Jurgen Klinsmann 6 4 10
    Jean-Pierre Papin 6 4 10
    Paulo Futre 2 5 7
    Enzo Scifo 5 5
    Paul Gascoigne 3 2 5
    Dragan Stojkovic 3 2 5
    Hristo Stoichkov 2 3 5
    Emilio Butragueno 3 1 4
    Frank Rijkaard 2 2 4
    Rafael Martin Vazquez 2 2
    Darko Pancev 2 2
    Gianluca Vialli 2 2

    1990 - 2000

    Dennis Bergkamp 13 9 22
    Roberto Baggio 10 10 20
    Paolo Maldini 10 10 20
    Jari Litmanen 3 8 11
    Eric Cantona 3 7 10
    Davor Suker 5 4 9
    Matthias Sammer 4 4 8
    Gianfranco Zola 3 5 8
    Laurent Blanc 5 5
    Ryan Giggs 2 2 4
    Robert Prosinecki 3 3
    Gheorghe Hagi 2 2
    Alan Shearer 2 2

    (for EPL Bergkamp was placed between 1995 and 2005, and yes in the 2004-05 league season he had still 8 non-penalty goals, 2 drawn penalties, 12 assists and over 11 pre-assists, but don't think it captures his best years that way. Ryan Giggs is tricky, but in the way you've done it with a peak around 1993-1994 I opted for this solution)

    1995 - 2005

    Zinedine Zidane 31 25 56
    Luis Figo 20 17 37
    Andriy Shevchenko 13 11 24
    Pavel Nedved 6 7 13
    Raul 5 5 10
    Fabio Cannavaro 5 4 9
    David Beckham 3 5 8
    Robert Pires 2 5 7
    Patrick Vieira 3 2 5
    Clarence Seedorf 4 4
    Alessandro Nesta 1 3 4
    Alessandro Del Piero 4 4
    Ruud van Nistelrooy 4 4
    Michael Owen 3 3
    Henrik Larsson 2 2

    (Raul is only two-and-a-half years older than Xavi, but what a difference in 'era'!)

    2000 - 2010

    Thierry Henry 21 16 37
    Andrea Pirlo 9 9 18
    Steven Gerrard 9 5 14
    Francesco Totti 5 8 13
    Frank Lampard 5 4 9
    Deco 2 4 6
    Miroslav Klose 5 5
    David Villa 1 2 3
    Mark van Bommel 3 3
    Andrey Arshavin 2 2
    Michael Ballack 2 2
    Dimitar Berbatov 2 2
    Adrian Mutu 2 2

    2005 - 2015

    Cristiano Ronaldo 41 41 82
    Andres Iniesta 15 16 31
    Xavi 13 15 28
    Arjen Robben 9 8 17
    Franck Ribery 6 7 13
    Wesley Sneijder 5 6 11
    Fernando Torres 4 4 8
    Zlatan Ibrahimovic 2 6 8
    Cesc Fabregas 2 3 5

    2010 - 2020

    Eden Hazard 11 10 21
    Antoine Griezmann 5 8 13
    Mesut Ozil 7 5 12
    Kevin De Bruyne 9 2 11
    Robert Lewandowski 3 3 6
    Paul Pogba 2 4 6
    Christian Eriksen 2 1 3
    N'Golo Kante 2 2
    Toni Kroos 2 2
    Marco Reus 1 1 2
    Gerard Pique 2 2
    Gareth Bale 2 2

    (Pique is at the moment more like 2005 - 2015, but I think after this 'low conceding' season and maybe the coming seasons too it is probable 2010 - 2020 will capture most of his best years and contributions)

    PDG1978 repped this.
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Nice work - feel free (if you would like of course) to do similar for the Ballon d'Or vs Player of the Season (via IOC/Unicef/ESM votes) if it helps to show how the concensus choices seem to stack up!

    Of course first you might want to combine the annual/seasonal totals or something (it's a pity maybe that the Unicef voting didn't extend to at least top3s like with the IOC award though, as only the winners each season can really be used...whereas with my own attempts I could choose Ballon d'Or esque top 5s).
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011

    Yeah, for my own purpose I've placed them on year of birth (count started at 1978). Some differences with my own attempt, although not too many, and yes you've explained your idea on peak Pires vs peak Giggs.
    (later on I swapped Hagi-Blanc around though; here Stojkovic ends on top and yes he was sort of successful for a top team in his time, Olympique Marseille)

    By year of birth:

    1947: Cruijff (Rensenbrink)
    1949: Krol
    1951: Dalglish (Keegan, Breitner, Rep)
    1952: Giresse
    1953: Scirea
    1954: Antognoni (Francis)
    1955: Platini (Rummenigge, Tigana, Susic, Rocheteau, Bossis, Conti)
    1956: Rossi (Brady, Boniek, Bagni)
    1957: Ceulemans (Elkjaer, Hoddle, Strachan, Robson)
    1959: Schuster
    1960: Baresi (Lineker, Belanov, Littbarski, Waddle)
    1961: Matthaus (Nicholas, Rush, Zavarov)
    1962: Gullit (Rijkaard)
    1963: Papin (Butragueno, Barnes, Koeman, Schmeichel)
    1964: Van Basten (M. Laudrup, Klinsmann, Vialli)
    1965: Stojkovic (Blanc, Hagi, Vazquez, Pancev)
    1966: Savicevic (Cantona, Zola, Futre, Stoichkov, Scifo)
    1967: Baggio (Sammer, Gascoigne)
    1968: Maldini (Suker)
    1969: Bergkamp (Prosinecki)
    1970: Shearer
    1971: Litmanen (Larsson, Keane)
    1972: Zidane (Figo, Nedved, Rui Costa)
    1973: Cannavaro (Pires, Giggs, Davids)
    1974: Del Piero (Scholes)
    1975: Beckham
    1976: Shevchenko (Totti, Vieira, Seedorf, Nesta, RvN, Ballack)
    1977: Henry (Raul, Deco, Van Bommel, Ljungberg)
    1978: Lampard (Klose, Carvalho)
    1979: Pirlo (Owen, Mutu)
    1980: Xavi (Gerrard)
    1981: Ibrahimovic (Villa, Arshavin, Berbatov, Xabi Alonso)
    1982: Cech
    1983: Ribery
    1984: Iniesta (Robben, Sneijder, Torres)
    1985: C. Ronaldo
    1986: Neuer
    1987: Fabregas (Pique, Payet)
    1988: Ozil (Lewandowski, Mata)
    1989: Bale (Reus)
    1990: Kroos (De Gea)
    1991: Hazard (Griezmann, De Bruyne, Kante)
    1992: Eriksen
    1993: Pogba (Kane)
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  6. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member

    Oct 21, 2015
    Leeds United AFC

    Would it be possible for you to produce a definitive list of World Top 3s for each calendar year since 1950, by combining the input of BigSoccer members to date with all your other sources?
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, I think so - it is something I can look into compiling certainly. I think the sources will get more scarce going back towards 1950 unless we can find some more, but tallying up votes cast by Big Soccer members as per the thread title could be done going back that far of course (and if more wanted to make a list then that would enhance the volume of votes cast - at the moment I guess there are less than there were on the Top 50 Players thread I opened ages ago, by quite a lot, but still could be interesting to see the results yeah).

    I wonder whether for some voters seasons were already given high weighting within the calendar year votes (just as with the real Ballon d'Or at times), but as far as I remember nobody made a list for seasons literally instead of calendar years (apart from my own specific recent attempts for European players, and then number 1 choices for all players worldwide) so every vote should be comparable enough I'd think, as much as the ones cast for the Ballon d'Or are.
    peterhrt repped this.
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    By @PDG1978 included Premier League players with more than 6 points. First column shows the number of 10+ non-penalty goals seasons; second row 10+ assists seasons.

    Henry - 7 & 2
    Lampard 5 & 4 (@comme will be happy :p )
    Bergkamp - 4 & 4
    Cantona - 1 & 4
    Beckham - 1 & 4
    Pires - 3 & 1
    Hazard 2 & 1 (@ age 26)
    Cristiano Ronaldo 3 & 0
    Zola - 2 & 0
    Klinsmann 1 & 1
    Gerrard 1 & 1
    Ozil 0 & 1 (@ age 28)
    De Bruyne 0 & 1 (@ age 26)

    Thierry Henry and more so Beckham, Gerrard and Lampard collected a considerable amount of set piece assists. On the opposite end of that spectrum there is Bergkamp, Cantona, Zola and Klinsmann, who all have very, very few.

    De Bruyne will probably have 1 & 2 at the end of this season (0 & 2 is already certain). Ozil might stay at 0 & 1, but can still have a second 10+ assists season - it is flipping a coin. Hazard is likely to increase to 3 & 1. Has nine non-penalty goals and three assists so far this season.

    Paul Scholes is at 2 & 0, but as discussed previously he has many pre-assists (even if that stat is not 100% accurate) and less than 3 of his 55 assists came from a set piece.

    Of this list, Thierry Henry is the only one to have more than one 20+ goals season (without pens) and more than one 15+ goals season (without pens).

    Both Beckham and Henry collected many from the wings, too (which is also a skill).
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  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Ryan Giggs is at 2 + 5

    Sheringham at 4 + 1

    David Silva 1 + 2

    More ideas @PDG1978

    Think that Giggs has had the most 10+ assists seasons then (including set pieces).
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  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I suppose Cantona might have the best % of target (10+) assists achieved then, if looking at it that way rather than cumulatively, doing it in 80% of his seasons. Henry more than likely for 10+ open play goals as he must be on 7 out of 8 for that then.
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  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    I understand that @PDG1978 his method is a bit different but I'll show how I'd place them by timeframe.

    I think the top three is well done. Some of this list would fit better into 1970 - 1980.

    As indicated before though, I'm still unsure about KHR his best games. For Dalglish it is easier to spot where he was at the peak of his capabilities. Had a few off-seasons, struggling with injuries, and considering the vastly superior Ballon d'Or standing of KHR it is safe to place him half a step ahead.

    Dalglish is for sure enormously underrated in the Ballon d'Or.

    Rossi maybe best of the rest. Of course his match-fixing is lamentable but the idea that he was a one season wonder is very untrue for sure.

    The greatest absentees are imho: Souness (great performer when it mattered the most; the 1984 final, the 1981 semi finals and final) and perhaps still Simonsen.

    This is one of the more difficult decades (restricted to Europeans). Baresi had in trophies his window between 1985 and 1995 for sure, but the more I see, I think he was individually better before 1992. After 1992 he definitely became more error prone, without doubt.

    Players who scored well in the Ballon d'Or were: Schuster, Elkjaer, Lineker, Rush, Dasaev, Belanov, Zacharov, Strachan, Mikhailichenko, Ceulemans, Robson.

    If I have to make a team with primary options then:

    GK: Dasaev, Pfaff
    SB: Gerets, Amoros
    DM: Lerby
    CM: Schuster, Robson
    AM: Mikhailichenko
    WF: Ceulemans, Belanov, Zacharov, Strachan
    CF: Lineker, Rush, Elkjaer

    Hoddle received only once a point, in 1987.

    Not easy to make a ranking. There are many who reached a good level in both halves of the decade (without better fitting in 1985 - 1995 or 1975 - 1985), at the same time not many outstanding ones.

    I'm tempted to go with:

    Dasaev; Gerets, Forster, Olsen, Amoros; Robson, Barnes (Schuster), Lerby; Ceulemans; Elkjaer, Rush.

    How would yours look?

    Continue with the rest later. Rush is perhaps the most impressive scorer of this decade. Only McCoist (mostly active in Scotland) and Fernando Gomes (mostly active in Portugal) have more. What sets him apart from the other two though is not necessarily supposed league quality, but his goals in major finals and quarter-finals plus semi-finals (including FA Cup finals).
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  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think you wanted me to suggest an XI for the 1980-1990 group too Puck (rather than just being an open invitation although of course anyone can do it!), so I guess I'd probably end up with a Magic Square like this, adding some options in defence that arguably just about fit that period, especially considering their DOB:
    Dasaev; Amoros, Baresi, Vierchowod, Brehme; Tigana, Lerby; Hoddle, Ceulemans; Lineker, Elkjaer

    Somehow I consider Littbarski more than my points tally for him indicates though I think (maybe more based on 'prime version' I suppose although conversely he's one of the players with multiple peaks over quite a long period arguably, but some noted dips too), and I understand your choices in every case.
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  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Nice attempt. Did you see this one lately? (even though against an opponent playing with 10)

  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks. I guess if we tried to form an agreed consensus between us for a European 1980-1990 XI then Gerets, Forster and Rush would come in with Vierchowod & Brehme dropping out (and feasibly 1985-1995 players perhaps, although 1980-1990 does seem viable) and Lineker having to be a theoretical impact sub maybe! Or if Lineker retained instead of Rush (since Baresi I'm thinking would have been in your team too unless I missed the reason he'd not be), then perhaps you'd get to choose between Hoddle and Littbarski as the predominantly right sided AM (I'd be fine with you doing that anyway tbh as the slot seems good for Littbarski assuming unlike with the French system more width would come from the AMs than the strikers)...or even pick an alternative and/or put Rush back in for Elkjaer (even though for a real team probably I think Lineker partnering Rush might not be ideal although sometimes these things go against assumed logic and they'd certainly pose problems with the pace both had and finishing ability too obviously!).

    Yeah, I noticed that one. I guess a better one would be the Scotland game from late 1982 (I remember you said you'd watched that in full)? Not that I'm offering to make it as my enthusiasm and capability (minus a CD/DVD drive!) to make the videos is for now not so high! And not that I'm suggesting you make it, but I thought you'd have some good insight into just how good a game that was by him overall.

    There is a Littbarski one actually for the Algeria 1982 World Cup game (4/6 performance from France Football, in defeat) which seems to be a full 'all touches' type of video I think:
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  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    #1665 PuckVanHeel, Mar 9, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
    Yes true, he was indeed playing well in that match - among the best on the field. I think he (Ceulemans) was more of a winger/forward earlier in his career (IIRC you especially like that version of him, going by dribbles/through balls/one-time passes that you showed) and then more of a midfielder with an pinch of steel towards the mid 1980s. In that 1986 USSR match he had one wonderful long pass.

    Vierchowod and Tigana are good suggestions for players who reached a high level in both halves of the decade. Probably I'd move Brehme to 1985 to 1995 (think that this captures more of his best years, but yes per year of birth 1980 to 1990 is his window).

    Anyway, moving on with the rest:

    I tend to agree with the #1. Even in 1990-91 when he didn't score a lot (but did assist!) his added value and repertoire was obvious. He provided Milan a bunch of extra goals, which even some stellar signings couldn't fully replace or compensate. In some respects he was better before his 1986-1987 injury, more consistent close control on the ball perhaps.

    Laudrup, Gullit and Matthaus can be placed in any order for two to four. It is nowadays - not unfairly - thought Laudrup was underrated back then, but overinflated today (esp. his consistency and performance in advanced stages), but maybe somewhat surprising: Laudrup has three more Ballon d'Or nominations than the other two. Savicevic is indeed an option for #5.

    This is also a tricky decade. There was a thread on this decade, with a more elaborate analysis (on career goals etc.). Your ranking sort of reflects the Ballon d'Or.

    Not many players reached a high level in both halves of the period, and the various rankings were quite volatile. Most probably the sweeping rule and competition changes had an effect on this low number, I really think that. Something like the offside rule, next to all the other major changes, can really have a big effect on the 'automated' footballers. In more recent times it's also hypothized that, say, Ibrahimovic would be a more dominant footballer under the old 'three foreigners' rule.

    As you know I personally have Baggio on top, but I agree with the top three. Maldini and Bergkamp were certainly better and more consistently able to do well in 'Opta Index' type of things without scoring goals; Bergkamp scored high in the euro 2000 Opta Index - even if he didn't score a goal that tournament (although still with 3 assists).

    One game I doubted about mentioning for Maldini as 'best game' is the 2003 match vs Real Madrid. Doubts because Milan conceded 3 goals (and he's a defender after all) and Figo refused to track back which made Maldini look extra impressive and commanding. Still an option.

    But I understand that with your method Baggio doesn't end on top. His nominations are also not as evenly spread as the other two. Still 'odd' though that he was never in the ESM team of the month.

    Next is 1995 - 2005, which is in a different respect not easy, since I started to think more and more that Zidane was a (much) better national team player than club player. Also when he was 'out of form'.
  16. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Jun 11, 2012
    This made me think of a 80-90 SA version.
    1 Roberto Costa
    2 Junior
    3 Leandro
    4 Celso
    5 Hugo de León
    6 Sergio Batista
    7 Bucharraga
    8 Romerito
    9 Careca
    10 Maradona
    11 Renato Gaucho
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I guess overall it's one of the lesser SA decade XIs done this way. In a world XI, there would be Maradona, but then not many others perhaps although arguments might be made for Careca, Junior and maybe Burruchaga, Leandro too. Perhaps 3 South Americans and 8 Europeans might be the consensus? Unless Roger Milla would be put in or something like that (I guess this is his decade even though his age would be on the high side).
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  18. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Jun 11, 2012
    Agreed its relatively weak.
    75-85 seems stronger:
    1 Ubaldo Fillol
    2 Jaime Duarte
    3 Alberto Tarantini
    4 Daniel Passarella
    5 Darío Pereyra
    6 Paulo Roberto Falcao
    7 Gerónimo Barbadillo
    8 Socrates
    9 Fernando Morena
    10 Zico
    11 Mario Kempes
    Also Bochini, Gatti, Ardiles, Alonso, Talavera, Cerezo, Eder, Victorino, Paz, Velasquez, Cueto
  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, true. Maybe you wouldn't feel so but Ardiles can perhaps even get in if making it 4-2-1-2-1. Edinho in defence maybe too?

    Europeans feasibly in a world XI: Shilton, Scirea, Kaltz, Breitner, Platini, Rummenigge, Dalglish.
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Krol rather than Breitner probably if he'd not be placed in 1970-1980. Otherwise could be argued Bossis at LB and Breitner in midfield.

    Simonsen if using 4-3-3 perhaps. Robertson in 4-4-2 even. Either/both in 4-2-3-1 but given other attacking options it's unlikely in a world XI as opposed to European.
  21. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Jun 11, 2012
    Edinho might be in as well. Good call.

    A world xi is tricky, if you want to balance it. Platini could fit with Rummenigge and other runners. That would cancel out Dalglish, Zico, Bochini etc. Perhaps Barbadillo and a young Socrates would be the other targets for Michel.
    PDG1978 repped this.
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    The rest in short:

    I think your 1995 to 2015 attempts are quite right at the top. Main thing I'd change is Ibrahimovic a bit higher in his period (in the top 5), and Gerrard probably outside the top 5. Also Iniesta below Xavi.
  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Ok Puck, cheers. Did you feel there might be calls where you'd especially put Gerrard lower or Ibra higher in a particular year or season yourself?

    I forgot to ask before, but not just for Gerrard but others (that you previously listed)too it might be interesting to see exactly which Premier League seasons were the ones they had 10+ assists and 10+ open play goals in according to the sources. Nice work putting the totals together anyway....
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Okay, I will do that. I used the official site as source.
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    You mean something like this @PDG1978 ? Not sure which players you wanted to include?

    I took above list.

    Immediately also copied the 9 assists seasons from the earlier overview (especially for earlier seasons relevant perhaps, when teams didn't score as much and interruptions/fouls per match were higher - even if the fouls aren't that bad the interruptions lower the effective time).

    10+ assists seasons

    Ryan Giggs (1994-95; 1999-00; 2001-02; 2002-03; 2003-04)
    David Beckham (1997-98; 1998-99; 1999-00; 2000-01)
    Dennis Bergkamp (1997-98; 1998-99; 2001-02; 2004-05)
    Eric Cantona (1992-93; 1993-94; 1995-96; 1996-97)
    Frank Lampard (2004-05; 2006-07; 2008-09; 2009-10)
    Thierry Henry (2002-03; 2004-05)
    David Silva (2011-12; 2015-16)
    Kevin De Bruyne (2016-17)
    Steven Gerrard (2013-14)
    Eden Hazard (2011-12)
    Jurgen Klinsmann (1994-95)
    Robert Pires (2001-02)
    Teddy Sheringham (1997-98)
    Mesut Ozil (2015-16)
    Cristiano Ronaldo (N/A)
    Gianfranco Zola (N/A)

    9 assists seasons

    Ryan Giggs (1995-96; 1997-98; 2004-05; 2009-10)
    Dennis Bergkamp (1996-97; 1999-00; 2002-03)
    Steven Gerrard (2008-09; 2012-13)
    Mesut Ozil (2013-14; 2016-17)
    Teddy Sheringham (1992-93)
    Gianfranco Zola (1996-97)
    Thierry Henry (2000-01)
    Arjen Robben (2004-05)
    David Silva (2013-14)
    Eden Hazard (2014-15)
    Kevin de Bruyne (2015-16)

    Based on longevity and also considering peak Giggs can be slotted into the top 5/top 6 for 1990 - 2000 I think. His peak is comparable to some other candidates for that time.

    Re: your question on Gerrard. That is thus 2013-14, but according to whoscored 11 of the 13 assists resulted from a free kick or corner. That explains he broke the barrier on his last legs. Backed up by this (from before end of the season):
    PDG1978 repped this.

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