Yes indeed. Often they're also on the short end, these strikers and forwards. You're less likely to find this "size and body type" (in the words of Vialli) in these regions: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-36888541 Things like this show Henry his 'dominance' by the way: https://arsenal-mania.com/forum/threads/youre-roobish.6599/
I think his play style was more a consequence of his limitations. He played the way he did because that was the way to maximize his talent. Based on the limited footage I've seen of him at Ajax, when he still had some athleticism and was asked to be a primary goal-scorer, he had no problem performing the task. If Bergkamp had Henry's pace, he'd be getting in behind the lines as well. Someone of his IQ would recognize that that is a good use of his talent. But he wouldn't just turn into some sort of highly technical Ian Wright, of course. He'd be all over the place. He'd still be supporting others, popping up everywhere. The pace would just help him do what he did even more. Seriously, he'd be a 20+ goals/10+ assists guy in the 90s-00s EPL, no doubt. This is what a raw Henry did to Italy in EURO 2000 final. What do we think Bergkmap with that athleticism would do to defenders in the 90s https://streamable.com/0acloz
I suppose someone like Ronaldinho or Kaka are rare cases of someone who's quite tall but also blistering fast. I honestly don't understand the actim index, but I can see the numbers
Ronaldinho definitely (1.82m). Kaka (1.86m) maybe too, but was especially effective as counter-attacking player when he could run into space (or beat an opponent and then run into space). I recognize Kaka his start-stop acceleration but even then he was at his best over slightly longer distances. Applies to Cristiano Ronaldo in his peak Real Madrid version (early to mid 2010s) as well
Yeah, possibly not mega different from what one looks like based on actual peaks, but on the other hand maybe the players who peaked in everything at any particular time (capability wise as opposed to role in the team affecting their impact in different respects) are in the minority among the all-time greats and among players in general?
There was a good euro 1992 compilation showing the pace, is now sadly deleted. Maybe @Tom Souster can link it again?
I made comps of all of Bergkamps major tournaments a few months back and was actually surprised and amazed at his pace in his younger days. UEFA block the euros ones on youtube but I have them on twitter Thread of my Bergkamp comps:— Souster98 (@Souster98_YT) July 28, 2021 He was excellent in all 5 tourneys too, even in a turbulent 96 team he had his moments. It's really a shame he went to inter in what should've been the peak of his prime at his peak physicality
It's funny to think, because quite possibly Thierry Henry is the best Premier League player overall and/or in terms of peak (for me Bergkamp could be the main alternative but I don't want to ignite debate about that or anything in here!), but I'd say if Henry was actually a better pure finisher and took a bigger percentage of opportunities when played through on goal then Bergkamp could have had an assist collection that season to rival anyone's in any league potentially.
Do we have xG stat for that era? I do wonder if Henry was much above average. I certainly felt like he was, but my memory is filled with the highlights not the lowlights I don't know if he was averaging 5-7 shots like the main goal-scorers of today.
Yeah I think this is a tricky one. It's often said Henry never had a goal in any of the finals he played (is lacking in semi finals as well), but he should have one in the 2001 final (handball by Henchoz on the line). Even that stuff is somewhat dependent on the team and role one plays for though: But the xG is suddenly much better in a subdued role for Barcelona, where the best shooting positions aren't actually for him: So even what looks as an individual statistic has so many surrounding variables influencing the 'efficiency'. If you look at the fbref website, you can see he is more often #1 in shots/shots on target than becoming topscorer. And when he was topscorer, the lead he had over say Van Nistelrooij (for a less dominant attack, often the lone forward) was closer than the advantage in shots on target. Interestingly, the conclusion is it was actually Henry who occupied the number ten space in 2003-04: A closer look at who’s setting up these chances shows just how key Thierry Henry and Dennis Bergkamp were, leading the way for chances created in open play. Henry operated all around what we might now call ‘the ten space’; Bergkamp a little deeper and to the right. When we check the locations that Henry and Bergkamp received the ball, a similar pattern appears as is evident in the shots they were setting up: the Frenchman further up though still covering a large area; Bergkamp a little deeper and wide-ranging. If we just ignore all that fancy stuff (that's still team-dependent to a degree), we can also simply list the players of his generation and overlapping generations with 40+ goals in continental competitions and 30+ goals for the national team: Raul Gonzalez (67 + 44) Shevchenko (62 + 48) Van Nistelrooij (60 + 35) Henrik Larsson (59 + 37) Thierry Henry (59 + 51) Kluivert (41 + 40) Rather short list clearly. Although Henry also played the 2nd most continental games of this lot (behind Raul). Shevchenko is close in games played, and the others far behind. Crespo and Rivaldo just come short; Ronaldo Luis is at 36 + 62 and surely would have been there without injuries (although his ratio of 16 in 42 is much lower in the CL - for some/many the highest level in football since the mid-90s).
Maybe the fact he dribbled a lot less (at least half as many attempts) for Barcelona increased the finishing. It's a logical thing to happen.
I guess, strictly from the point of view of his finishing, he was placed in his favourite space in some ways, left of centre, coming inside onto the ball. Guardiola didn't like him to roam from the left much apparently so he'd pretty much always be arriving in the inside left channel, often with some time to pick his spot possibly (I haven't tried to check and analyse this based on videos today). The expected goals stat could be skewed by the solo goals he scored for Arsenal, picking up the ball where the average player would not be expected to score from (I guess that's how expected goals work?). Also some well assisted ones that still required him to take the ball on and score could fit into this category. It seems like in terms of assists Pires was a bit more suited to assist Henry, and Bergkamp a bit more suited to assist everbody else maybe (again, I didn't try to check stats today but have them vaguely in mind already including what's shown below)
This makes me remember I saw this appearing when I searched for Tropeiro his assertion about Ronaldo Luis (and what that former Statsbomb analyst Tropeiro mentioned found). When it comes to technical center forwards in the modern era, this is also fitting. It's finally here, the first installment of the Golden Boys of Yesteryear series focuses on Patrick Kluivert. The profile looks at:- Swiss army knife skillset- Instant impact as a teenager- High scalability on iconic Ajax side & decline post-1996https://t.co/0O7n6uveku— Mohamed (@MoeSquare) February 18, 2021 From the Euro 1996 qualifying playoff against Ireland; Patrick Kluivert using his gravity to drag his marker across which created space for others to exploit pic.twitter.com/eAQFrpkyMu— Mohamed (@MoeSquare) February 10, 2021 "Sure, I do think it’s fair to question his ability in his early years to positively impact an attack if he didn’t play alongside a good number of high-end teammates, but helping an attack go from good -> very good/great is immensely valuable and Kluivert’s scalability is what sets him apart when compared to other under-21 attackers in the modern era." I do have some question marks though; what he says about his left foot, or the idea he is especially great for already good teams (rather than good for 'poor' teams; I think the combined G+A numbers for a declined Barcelona and the ill-fated 2002WC qualifiers speak for itself - and was he really prolific enough for elevating already strong teams? Have my doubts). Of course he was part of the 1999-00 Barcelona attack that set a scoring record in the Champions League, and unlike some of his partners he also delivered in the KO stages (this is one of the main weaknesses of Rivaldo his non-pk scoring and assisting profile). When ranking teenagers of the modern era, this analyst is also of the opinion only Ronaldo Luis, Messi and Mbappe are probably ahead (he places Kluivert #4). While indeed he has a number of big goals as a teenager (the '95 final, the euro96 play-offs and so on), and was until Mbappe the teenager with the most Champions League goals, I'm not entirely certain about this ordering either. But his actual career with three national team semi-finals (with goals; Brazil '98), two continental finals (with goals), and six continental semi-finals (with goals) is better than some think.
Henry’s lack of headers isn’t due to lack of athletic ability. Just judging by body language he was a bit soft, a bit effete, not the type to aggressively throw himself into harm’s way. Good for him I guess, he probably hasn’t knocked his IQ down a few points or will get dementia, unlike some former players.
I've watched hundreds of Henry games and him being soft is not true at all. He was actually a very angry player in many games and got himself into trouble many times for being too aggressive in tackles when he was frustrated. I would say a large reason was simply arsenal didn't cross much during his time there. They played direct football with quick transitions and high technical quality, crossing was just not a regular tactic and we seemed to be pretty successful with it too. Henry also took the majority of set pieces himself so obviously this limited his opportunities too. He had a great leap truthfully his accuracy with them was simply inconsistent - he got in good positions and had the athletic ability tenfold. See his goal vs New Zealand at 03 confedations cup as an example (0:27) for the height he could jump. His game vs switzerland in euro 2004 was an example of him getting in good positions for crosses which his teammates delivered, but his worst heading performance despite scoring 2 goals that day. (1:00, 1:42, 2:20)
Expected goal is the location of the shot. This is (physically) harder to do after completing several dribbles. Pires took most of the corner-kicks and some set pieces as well. That increases the assists. Well, I think we discussed/found out before the Anelka team was one in a more traditional 4-4-2 with a more traditional striker pairing (or: a striker + shadow-striker). So you will find a slightly higher number (10 of the 29 goals). He said himself in 2002: When asked about Anelka, Bergkamp said: "As a strike partner, Nicolas was probably the best I`ve had at Highbury in terms of understanding. "That`s quite a plaudit when you understand all the partners I`ve had here from Ian Wright and John Hartson through to Thierry Henry and even Francis Jeffers. "The way Nicolas played suited me perfectly because he was always looking to run forward on goal. That made it easy for me to predict what he wanted and to know instinctively where he would be on the pitch. "That directness was just right. Thierry tends to want the ball to come to him or to drift towards the flanks more. "Nicolas was focused on heading for goal and scoring. He loved having the ball played for him to run on to and going one on one with the keeper. "That made for a successful and enjoyable partnership which I think is reflected in the statistics." https://www.skysports.com/football/news/2228251/bergkamp-hails-anelka Later on he really played somewhat deeper on average (often staying a bit behind in attacks and sending people away) and Henry was often on the left. It can be the sort of passes Pires provided him were easier to control for him than getting a ball from a rightish position (see above chart with the areas of operation). In theory, it is the easiest to control and finish with your left (if you get a pass from the inside-right), but Henry was of course right footed. It is more fluid and easier when getting a ball from Pires his default position (you notice in the 2002-03 Bergkamp video Henry looks wasteful). This is from open play in 2003-04: Also interesting is that the left side (especially Cole/Pires) is observed as a little vulnerable defensively, which is not the case (at all) on the right-sided players with Lauren, Ljungberg, Bergkamp. So maybe Pires was just more focused on assisting the (nearby) players? I'm guessing. Bergkamp does have an 'odd' defensive profile: The sample is 1700 minutes and not complete (32 of the 38 league games are in the dataset).
On the thing in bold: He's second in the official assists table for 2001-02 (behind Pires), third in 2002-03, tenth in 2003-04 and third in 2004-05. OPTA isn't 100% precise but if you take away the set pieces he definitely ranks higher. Plus, there are all those pre-assists and the unlocking passes for a goal (quite possibly the most of all squad members in 2003-04). His GoalImpact rating is of course also quite high. Anyway, to cut it short, I guess Henry looks in that video a poorer finisher than he was? He does have more seasons with 'most shots' (by a large margin) than topscorer awards, to be fair.
Interesting stuff though! Also that's 'suddenly' a lot higher once he plays for Barcelona (even before Guardiola his arrival, I mean).
I'm checking Tom Souster his twitter now and I do see many replies of this ilk, but genuinely not sure how fair that is (from inside-left to right foot much easier to control etc.). 1427284198201696263 is not a valid tweet id Good stuff there! 35 year old bergkamp snapping some ankles 🦶 pic.twitter.com/YZz6V2AW8b— Souster98 (@Souster98_YT) March 12, 2021 (the last game of the unbeaten run) Bergkamp fading 3 wolves players in 5 seconds with some beautiful technique, 2003. pic.twitter.com/AELOB2BgDQ— Souster98 (@Souster98_YT) February 19, 2021 his performances in the 01/02 title run were phenomenal, him and ljungberg were lethal after pires got injured. Plus a masterclass vs leverkusen and newcastle in the fa cup quarters in that time too pic.twitter.com/qOrgVrq0OC— Souster98 (@Souster98_YT) February 19, 2021 bit of classic bergkamp swagger pic.twitter.com/LNQSJoAj2m— Souster98 (@Souster98_YT) May 15, 2019 Btw, I said Henchoz handballed in the 2001 FA Cup final, but he actually did it twice! With Henry ready to score. Without this, there is no 'Henry didn't score in finals' trope, there is no treble for Liverpool, and probably no Ballon d'Or for Owen. edit: this control is absurd
My definition of a tough or “hard” player isn’t that they get angry or or jump into tackles that are dangerous for their opponent. The definition of a hard player is they are willing to take risks with their own safety, such as diving into headers knowing they could get knocked out in a collision. I admit, it’s been many years since I watched Thierry Henry play, but my memory is that he definitely tended to avoid situations that “braver” players may have lunged in to, grabbing their rewards (such as headed goals) for the risks they took.
Aerial battles is not worth Henry's health risk. Even if he has the jump, he had never really shown the other abilities to be a great aerial threat, like his actual heading ability when under pressure. In the areas where he is comfortable at, such as dribbling, he was never soft. I posted this video earlier in the thread, but here it is again: https://streamable.com/0acloz Those are the Cannavaro and Nesta of this world. They were kicking him, and he showed no fear of being kicked. There is also a different type of 'fear' and that is the fear of failure. Some attackers, when they don't start off well, they are less brave in their actions later in the game. Or if they play against really good defenders, they avoided those duels. Or the 'fear' of the occasion where the pressure gets so big, it affects players' decision-making. Henry was famously known for not being affected by his earlier in-game failures (many matches he would shoot poorly, but it never stopped him from shooting some more), and in the footage, you can see that facing the Italian defenders, one of the best backline in the world, he showed no hesitation. If anything, his bravery didn't quite match his intelligence yet, for the young Henry, as in some plays, combining with his teammates may have been the better option.
Has anyone really defined technique? What exactly we are talking about here and how we would rank players? I know opta and whoscored have a ludicrous category called “unsuccessful touches”, defined as “bad control”, in which they slander players for trying and failing to perfectly trap hard passes that are just out of their reach. Just yesterday I watched Chelsea Vs Manchester City and there was one play where Foden was being tightly marked by Rudiger as he sprinted to receive a fast long pass that he just got his foot to and ALMOST played it around Rudiger but not quite. Then I go on whoscored and there it is, unsuccessful touch, bad control Btw for active players under 22 Foden is the best in the world at trapping that I’ve seen.
Well for example I don’t recall Zidane ever mis-controlling a ball whereas the exact opposite applies to Sterling