Μάντσεστερ Γιουνάιτεντ-Λίβερπουλ, όπως λέμε Άνω Ραχούλα-Κάτω Ραχούλα. pic.twitter.com/vIRK7LAH8I— el sombrero (@sombrerogr) November 30, 2016 Alan Hansen beating 8 Manchester United players with one touch The defending was Sunday league and I can't claim to have seen something as disorganized as that but its still worthy of mention
While some say, rightly so to an extent to be fair, that compilation videos don't always reflect the overall effectiveness of players over 90 minutes (on a consistent basis), maybe for 'technique' they do give a pretty good idea when they are good and thorough enough. I think this one for Zico, my choice for number 1 in this topic, does help show his complete array of technical qualities very well: The Legend of Zico ● Ultimate Skills & Goals - YouTube Going to the other end of the top 10 I came up with, this is also a great one for Dragan Stojkovic I think, similarly (of course some moments from other videos would merit inclusion, like some of his passes that aren't on here but overall it's a good choice I think): Dragan Stojković, Piksi [Goals & Skills] - YouTube If I do the same for my second ten I chose, I can add this new, good and relevant one for Roberto Baggio: The Elegance and Skill of Roberto Baggio ᴴᴰ - YouTube And this one for Enzo Francescoli (which means I am posting one video for a relatively taller player at least, and there are a decent scattering of those among the 40 players I chose!): Enzo Francescoli, El Principe [Goals & Skills] - YouTube
I remember now that when I first thought of posting the Zico and Stojkovic videos, it was this Stojkovic one I had in mind (and indeed there is more of his passing prowess, and it includes a solo dribble goal not on the other one too, but obviously it's a long video!): Dragan "Piksi" Stojkovic - CEO Of Football - YouTube
Talking of players I put in my effort at a top 10, taller players, new videos and long videos, this one fits the bill for all of that and represents well I think probably the best English technician and passer Glenn Hoddle: Glenn Hoddle | Goals and Skills - YouTube Like I said before of course not every worthy available moment will be in even the best videos (the examples below come to mind), but it shows all the technical aspects he excelled in pretty well I think Glenn Hoddle - Time & Space - YouTube (Goal for Monaco from 2:54) 02/03/1985 Tottenham H v Real Madrid - YouTube (Pass against Real Madrid at 3:40) I did include Juan Roman Riquelme in my overall selection and this seems like a good one for his technical skills (not a new one but maybe not everyone viewing this thread regularly has seen it before): Juan Román Riquelme, El Torero [Goals & Skills] - YouTube
In terms of 21st century strikers or center forwards (who were also good or adequate in the air) this is seriously one of the major candidates. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/miscellaneous-premier-league-stats.2079200/page-2#post-38102099
Nothing for nothing but RVP had one of the top 5 highest peaks by any striker playing in a top 5 league since 2010 https://www.whoscored.com/Articles/...coreds-2011-Premier-League-Player-of-the-Year From the infograph you can see he did this without being a high volume dribbler which makes this all the more impressive. Im not sure van persie had 3 consecutive world class seasons although i do remember being extremely impressed by his all round in 2010/11. He looked like a cross between Dennis bergkamp and Marco van basten Even without world class positive contribution in 3 consecutive seasons he has more than enough across his career to suggest he was a generational player Being the all time top scorer of a nation that has 7 ballon dors and several podium positions is nothing to be scoffed at
The general point is merely that among 21st century strikers with major topscorer titles (in his case for more than one team), he is somewhere in the discussion alongside Ibrahimovic, Berbatov, Lewandowski, Kane and some others. Also when it comes to executing long passes and the 'peripheral' skills for strikers. As e.g. Fink Tank shows, this was highly effective and results-raising as well. Unfortunately he has only a couple fully fit and completed seasons without an injury. edit: he averaged 35 competitive Arsenal games per season. https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/man-utd/news/van-persie-injury-record-was-unlucky_65391.html The likes of Chiellini just knew they could engage the duels with an untroubled and unclouded mind, with limited and reduced risk for suspensions - or an outrage and backlash machine if it goes wrong for the opponent. They didn't need to hold back (what many defenders admit to do so when they play Messi, Neymar or a Kane). https://www.theguardian.com/football/2009/nov/17/dirk-kuyt-robin-van-persie With the ball not playable and out of reach for the defender, his ankle was literally broken in two. No yellow card, let alone suspensions were handed out. This while already in the early 1980s someone like Goiko or Gentile received at a minimum a yellow for their famous acts, followed by a multi-month ban (in case of Goiko, when he made his move on Schuster and later Maradona). Because actually FIFA introduced in 1982 the straight red for foul play into their rules. When it comes to 'peak' then it is dubious whether RvP ever reached the heights of Luis Suarez, but that's not what the thread is about.
I'm still convinced that the poverty-era Arsenal was good enough to win the league if we had better luck with injury. Never had a fully fit Cesc and RvP together, for example. I think RvP at his peak was truly special in that he once he transformed into this 'poacher' style player, he was able to master the role to the same extent as players who have been doing it their entire career. An excerpt of from Rio Ferdinand: "I remember we played a game and the manager brought us in on the Monday and we done a video looking at a game; and we very rarely done a video on a Monday. "He brought us in, played the video, and it just showed about 15 clips of Van Persie making runs and us not finding him. "The ball is at (Michael) Carrick's feet, Van Persie off the back of the defender and in; if the ball comes, he's in. Perfect timing, perfect run. Scholsey's getting it, not playing it to him, not seeing it. Van Persie is in. "The manager is stopping the video and saying: 'what are thinking, what are you doing. He will win you titles, he will win you the league. Pass him the ball!'" "He said: 'All you've got to do is get the ball to him, pass the ball to him, and he will win you the league'. "The clips, he kept going over them: 'Look at him running, what is wrong with you? Why are you not seeing this? Give it to him!' He was screaming at the boys. I think it's firstly important to recognize that off ball movement is the single most important attribute among goal scorers. The difference between RvP and other poachers was of course the fact that before he adapted to that game, he was more of a roaming forward, and had far superior technique to go with it. When he was playing more on-ball and was roaming around to create and playmake, I do remember him having a clear weakness in being much too slow in making the right decisions. It was worse when he was younger, of course. There were many moments where he took 1-2 seconds too long and the optimal moment passed. This was something that Bergkamp had. He always seem to know what he wanted to do before he even got the ball or when to do something to maximize it's effects. Playing more off ball was the best thing that happened to RvP and wen he was allowed to utilize his intelligent movement and technique to finish, he was the best player in the EPL, for a short time.
Yes, and Klopp said something similar in terms of instant adaptation to different roles: https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/01f7-0e7b299e3ffc-074ab34c90cd-1000/ https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsl...--klopp-s-dortmund-learn-from-their-mistakes/ I recognize this but Arsenal in general played a slower and less direct game and this habit went through the entire team. "Arsenal were the top passers in 2007-8, averaging 495 passes per game" Even before Guardiola at Barcelona there was this tendency to keep the ball, collect the most passes of the league, while Bergkamp played in a often more direct team with more movement around him. Bergkamp has though an extremely rare profile in the way he is above 300 career goals, but has even more assists, and - for the second half of his career - as many pre-assists as assists. What doesn't get recognized and isn't reflected in awards is that he's already top 10, top 15, in the cumulative 'Fink Tank' ranking starting in 2002 (including goalkeepers in the top 15) before 2011 and before he converted into a higher scoring striker (fractionally ahead of Fabregas, but that's an insignificant and meaningless difference). Led the league in assists in 2008-09 and had regularly his goals against the big teams as Man United, Liverpool or the CL semi final. When fit he was already good and influential (for the results) before, even on a cumulative base. This is corroborated by other sources and calculations as well. In his very last Premier League season he had still his goals against the later champions Chelsea. So yeah I recognize the criticism but at the same time there is evidence he was still (very) useful for his team, and not completely idle defensively either. (Fabregas his weakness was imho that his limitations came to the fore when the tempo increased and the spaces decreased; he had like CR7 for United the reputation of not delivering often enough in the bigger matches) I think it's debatable whether he was ever the outright best player of the league (if he was in 2011-12 then that's also helped by there wasn't a Ronaldo or Suarez at their peak; a season later there was Suarez approaching his peak and also Bale with an impossible amount of shots and crosses attempted), but he was one of the best between 2006 and 2014 I think, and is a 'what if' story. There is a good argument to make however that no other CL qualifying team has been as dependent on a single forward as Arsenal in 2011-12 (starting with how many points a goal delivered, and the distance created against the nearest rivals; but also his overall balanced game). In the Premier League and possibly even other top four leagues this century. At the least he is in the conversation and can be supported by facts. Either way, I came to this in a three step process: 1) I thought about other 'what if' strikers, lesser strikers/players as Ronaldo and Van Basten. Those contact injuries took something of his smoothness and nimbleness away. 2) That made me remember his problematic 2013-14 season still stacks up well on a cumulative base (per a scientific paper), corroborating further the Fink Tank thing. 3) When it comes to 21st century center forwards, their technical level (including things as long passes), while also being good or adequate in the air (2013-14 season vs Arsenal), then he is somewhere around there.
As addition to the above, in that time period of 2006 to 2010 they arguably lacked a reliable goalscorer as well. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arsenal_F.C._seasons Look at the club topscorer column. Fabregas was it once (albeit boosted by penalties) and RvP three times when it wasn't his primary job still, he didn't take too many shots, and was often injured. Only the season where Adebayor scored 30 in all competitions it checks off a normal profile. 2007-08. Lot of passing and ponderous play but they missed a final punch and directness. Players who had many other things to do ended up as club topscorer. Injuries to the likes of Eduardo didn't help too, indeed. I remember also discussions about whether Arsenal and their type of players was protected enough by the referees. Wasn't it?
Another 'peripheral' skill for strikers is the type of weighted through-balls with your weaker foot, like the one at 4:30 in above video.
This was uploaded on YouTube two days ago. Breathtaking. Many scenes I didn't know or had forgotten. Just limiting myself to European players: there are a number of Slavic and East European players with a similar touch and diversity in technique (plus application), but for 'swampy' and rainy Northern Europe the pool is enormously thin. What he could do with his weaker left foot was astonishing.
Bergkamp's compilation just never gets old. I genuinely believe that if Bergkamp was a freak athlete like his friend Henry, we would be talking about him like a top 20 player. For real. Although, he probably wouldn't end up playing for us
Henry eventually went to Barcelona isn't it? A little bit past his best perhaps and that 2006-07 injury didn't help. Many see Barcelona as some sort of final destination. In what sense wasn't he a freak athlete? Henry was quite fast, dynamic and even agile. The only thing lacking was strength (not that he was weak but it was a factor in him evading the center and often moving in from the left) and an aerial leap. Not many players combine top speed with a certain dynamism. He was also durable enough for 'dominating' the league in successive years, something the likes of Suarez, Ronaldo, Salah couldn't do. In part because it is physically very hard. The main difference between Henry and Mbappe or Ronaldo Luis in a physical sense is the body strength. Henry ticks the other boxes, and had most likely also a higher stamina. Bergkamp could in the late 90s move to Barcelona or back to the Serie A again. But because he felt settled and was uneasy with the Italian approach to (foreign) footballers, he stayed. His wife didn't want to go on the move again either. Knowing now where Barcelona was heading to, it was at hindsight the right decision. And he of course still played Serie A teams anyway (the Juventus assist is ubiquitous so here another one that I have always liked): One complicating thing is here Barcelona and Real Madrid of the last 25 years always want to have a Brazilian attacking player in their roster and as starter. That's one of the reasons why they paid so much for Coutinho after Neymar left (otherwise for the first time since the early 90s they would have no one!). They want to have the markets cornered, and also played a part in why Real Madrid didn't go all in for Lewandowski (admitted by Perez himself; the same president who has pressurized managers to play Gareth Bale in the line-up). Thus the opportunities to move there, if you have the quality, can be limited for a variety of reasons.
I think poet was classing Henry as a 'freak athlete' actually Puck - maybe you read it differently but I think he was doing. Interestingly Henry himself said he never did strength work, as he preferred to hone the technical side as much as he possibly could. This isn't available in my country, but maybe you can see it and he says it on there Soccerbox | Thierry Henry: 'Bergkamp beste teamgenoot uit mijn carrière' - YouTube He was naturally quite strong and powerful as a runner and shooter too I'd say anyway though (but yeah maybe not so much in terms of leaping, and he generally didn't thrive on scoring headers, not that Arsenal played in a big amount of crosses in the air anyway). Bergkamp was actually fast in his younger days especially of course (but I think over a decent distance like 60m or 100m you've said he was timed at among the fastest Arsenal players still in this century haven't you), but yeah overall he was not as athletic as some - sometimes he hit a shot quite fast too as an Arsenal player but that would also be in part down to technique I think (but he was not a Michael Owen for example, who despite being very fast never had a powerful shot). Bergkamp probably preferred to place or caress the ball into the net though in general, and he used chips and lobs quite a lot of course (already at Ajax) - I think he has commented about the 'space over the goalie' being available and not always used by players hasn't he or something to that effect in terms of why he often chipped the ball?
Yeah, I realized this five seconds after I hit the 'post reply' button! Yes, at the age of 33-34 Bergkamp was still pretty fast over longer distances. There is something about that in the Italian job book. Let's see if I can find it back.
I don't quite believe him, honestly. Nobody just naturally look like this: He actually did have a good leap in him, as we can see in some of the very few header goals or when he jumped up to control the ball mid air! Bergkamp with Henry's athleticism would be a top 20 player, at least, there's no doubt in my mind. That player, given 11 years in the EPL, would break Shearer's scoring record and probably contest with Giggs for his assists record as well. But like I said, that player would never have been affordable to us, and if he was, would be sold for the world record to Barcelona or something.
I remember when Nottingham Forest (as well as Newcastle) were rumoured to be interested before the actual Bergkamp signed for Arsenal! I think when I (quite a while before signing up for Big Soccer) originally tried an All-Time Championship Manager player set I possibly made him an 'ultimate' version (but at that time I maybe had him in mind as verging on top 20 all-time now - if I changed that to a small extent it's not really because I think he was less good than I did before though), with his Ajax era pace (though as Puck said he could still be quite fast at Arsenal when into his stride) and Arsenal era creative attributes (not to say he completely lacked that earlier either).
Yes, here it is in the Vialli and Marcotti book 'Italian Job' (2006), page 57-58 (the book is a reworked Coverciano, semi-scientific thesis): "Take pace, for example. There are different kinds of pace over different distances and this is immensely relevant to the game. Some players are very fast over sixty yards but sluggish over five. I was recently told the result of tests that Arsenal ran over sixty yards in the 2003-04 season. Guess who the three fastest Gunners were. OK, one's dead easy: Thierry Henry. No prizes there. You probably won't be surprised to hear that Jermaine Pennant was another. But it ought to astound you the third Arsenal speedster was none other than Dennis Bergkamp. Obviously Bergkamp is a phenomenal footballer, but few would list pace among his assets. That's because you would hardly ever see him going on a sixty-yard sprint during a match. Most of his runs are short, no more than ten yards. And over that distance he is not the quickest. Again, this makes sense, given his size and body type. One of the quickest men I've played with was Gianfranco Zola. What we in Italy call 'explosive force' - quickness off the mark - he had in abundance. For a striker of Zola's characteristics, that 'explosive force' was far more important than his pace over sixty yards, because it enabled him to pounce on loose balls and accelerate away from defenders. Now, over sixty yards a number of players might beat Zola, including yours truly, if only because I have longer legs. Yet with Zola, it didn't matter because he hardly ever had to make such a long run during a match." Here at 11:45 you see an example of this (also visible in the full highlights is the directness of Arsenal's play - compare this to the above mentioned 'Fabregas era' imho) Now we are at it, at page 241 it is also written: "In the last few years of his career, Dennis Bergkamp went from one-year deal to one-year deal at Arsenal, because it is club policy to give one-year extensions to players after a certain age. From a purely economic standpoint, Bergkamp had to be mad to accept this situation. Other clubs could probably have offered him more money and certainly have given him a two- or even three-year commitment. Accepting Arsenal's offer did not make sense: the situation was totally weighted in the club's favour. Yet clearly Bergkamp did not mind because he placed other values ahead of his finances. He was happy at Arsenal, his family was settled in north London, he was probably quietly confident that he would play well enough to get a new deal year after year." Vialli also rightly notes Arsenal's streak of 1st and 2nd places (Manchester United finished three times 3rd in the meantime) ended once Bergkamp was no longer a starter in his very last season and Vieira had left.
Hmm...I do wonder what the top 20 combined peaks would look like. I never saw Zidane in his Ligue 1 days, but I would assume peak Zidane with young Zidane athleticism would be quite something else. Or Ronaldo Luis with his 96/97 athleticism but the poacher know-how of the post-injury version.
Yeah, I think these 5-10 yard dashes are like superpowers for some of the best box strikers of all time. When watching Muller, for example, his short distance dash actually stood out. Then you have someone like Romario who basically made a living out of it as well.
Yes, sorry, I was wrong about this I think now. It's merely that Henry his goals with his head are a rarity. Yeah maybe, I don't know. Ruud Gullit once described him as the 'low cost carrier version of Messi' and later 'the Dinky Toys incarnation of Messi'. Maybe being a support player to others (having as many assists as goals, very high number of pre-assists) and make the side tick was something he excelled in anyway. Someone like Modric with more pace suddenly becomes a very different player? Modric is or was quite strong for his build, was agile and great stamina - and a technical player of course. At least there is one thing, just one thing, Bergkamp regularly did that even Messi didn't, and that is consistently producing high quality goals and assists against the best national teams on the planet. Maybe they should have given the kid/teenager Bergkamp the same steroids as the kids Maradona and Messi (in all seriousness: had Messi been born in northern europe, he simply doesn't qualify for treatment and it is banned for medical reasons - when taking here the average height of an Argentine male and not say a Finnish male). Probably the fact he was born very late in his cohort (like Zidane, too) was an implicit incentive for his technical skills and awareness as kid, in order to survive and make the cut each year.