This is fascinating in that context: Ik dit verhaal uit @VI_nl over #Maradona blijkt eigenlijk ook hoe groot @hanegem10van was. In het begin van dit verhaal een prachtige anekdote. De reportage over het talent Maradona toen hij voor #argentinosjuniors speelde en Uitgerekend tegen #BocaJuniors @HarryWalstra. pic.twitter.com/K2Kt0pqM47— Johan Hollen (@Johan1907) November 28, 2020 "In this VI story about Maradona it also appears how big [the name] Van Hanegem was". With the Argentinos Juniors staff recalling him.
Yes, as I said I don't 100% agree. There is also an improvisational flick in the 1973 semi final, where he neatly sets up a chance for example (here at 2:30). However, the leading commentator (for many, and myself, the best we had) between the 1978 and 2002 World Cups said that as well (he was also one of the few commentators in 1986 to immediately spot and mention the 'hand of god' as it occurred). "I saw Maradona for the first time live a year after the flawed World Cup. There as eighteen years old he played against the Netherlands. It was an extra jubilee match in Switzerland. There he was for the first time visible. Of course there had been stories before. There he said out of politeness 'I have admiration for the football' and then he named Ruud Krol and Johan Neeskens, with Cruijff as one of the two best he has seen so far in his life. That signs the supporter of the game, because there he picks two players who also meant and achieved something in football, not just two random and nameless players. This was when he was young and polite, but in fairness in later years and in other settings, Napoli and Sevilla, he mentioned Krol and Cruijff in these parameters as well." [....] --- But for you Maradona was the most special and the best, also if you compare it with Cruijff or Messi. "Yes to the question of 'the best'. Cruijff was great, also around the whole world, how he tried to speak to each journalist in their own language. Has had a great influence and was a leader type who knew what he was talking about, also with his football vision. That is a different story. But the best is always one. Then you shouldn't say 'it are three, four or six'. If you have to answer the question who was the best when at his best: then I'd say that was the spontaneous and naturally talented Maradona." ----- "The subject of 'special' is less clear. In a naturally technical sense, that is Maradona, that is George Best. You can say it was Pelé who helped to make the World Cup the central tournament, with his smile, skill and elastic athleticism. That wasn't the case for the World Cup before his arrival as 17 years old, and possibly doesn't happen at exactly that precise moment if there wasn't Pelé yet still around. It quickened the process. Then you have the South Americans themselves who overwhelmingly said after it was all done 'Cruijff is the greatest European in 100 years of football'. Influenced, and primed, by him winning against all of the Three Giants with an aggregate scoreline of 8-0 in 1974, while just a decade earlier many of the football countries didn't regard Holland as a football minded country. What I personally found most special there is Nelson Mandela had two favorite footballers: Ruud Gullit of course, and Johan Cruijff. If you think about that and sink it in, then that's also pretty unique. Also typical for him - and for Ruud too - is that they basically never cried after a lost football game - except in 1983 when he was leaving Ajax. Not when he lost the World Cup final or at other big matches. But when he off-camera visited the same South Africa and saw everything that was imperfect, he was moved with a few tiny tears around his eyes. I think though my answer for 'special' as a footballer is edging towards Pelé" As a match commentator he was imho the best. His live commentary was channeled to all territories with the same language.
What is meant by the most 'special' here? The one who transcends the game? Biggest impact? Maradona as the best is also a very good choice. I have leaned more toward Messi but Maradona's mastery at a young age where others probably arrived at that level later is tough to deny. It is also said his training habits at Barcelona were not up to standard which would probably have been even more accommodated in Napoli. Undeniably, Cruyff ranks really high in both and could perform at a high level before his maturity and after his physical prime. I had known of Gullit's appreciation of Mandela, but never realised the reverse and also Mandela being a fan of Cruyff. Very interesting.
The unclarity of that question is also within the answer. True. I kind of disagree. Yes there was an orchestrated FIFA and marketing campaign, with evocative exoticism capturing continental europe, but he was playing football for the World champion here and more or less directly replacing the unavailable Kempes. His productivity against the top teams (when playing for his club friendlies as well) wasn't so good and not comparable to Pele. Unlike Pele, also playing for the champions, he didn't tear the likes of Italy, Germany or Netherlands to shreds. England in 1980 is pretty much the only standout. Agree when having the chance to play against these, but usually this doesn't register much (thanks to the dominant agendas, the media and pseudo professors, the machines). That of Gullit is not a secret and pretty well documented I think. With him speaking on video about it etc. and also articles around the late 1980s.
@comme What's next? I mean genuinely I would love to know what is required for you to intervene You have sanctioned,issued warnings or even banned people who have committed relatively minor infractions I.e. overzealous posts about their preferred players But this If you are silent about this when you have to authority to intervene it is like you condone it
Maradona was considered the best on the south American continent at 20 years old The best player in the world according to the English press (and others) at 21 years old This is from the archives Rare Diego Maradona footage from 1981 - Boca Juniors 3-0 River Plate. Brilliant goal near the end. The classic No.10 shirt was worn last night by Carlos Tevez in tribute to Maradona (see next tweet below).#DiegoMaradona #Boca #Argentina 🇦🇷pic.twitter.com/9wKbIIHjER— Barry Anderson (@BarryAnderson_) December 3, 2020 In the 3-2 loss vs river plate in the same year he scored from a impossible angle Also providing a great header assist Maradona was the chief destroyer of river plate Real Madrid 82-84 Milan 87-90 The biggest threat and the player whom the tactics of the opposing team would be focused on If not in goals then controlling the flow of the match,providing the dangerous passes and even when he lost his pace due to drug abuse and bad lifestyle choices he was still the most effective ball carrier in the world courtesy of his close control and ball retention skills Maradona was such a supremely gifted footballer that even if you stripped away 70% of his individual qualities he would still remain a competitive player 5 goals+12 assists in 2169 minutes(24 matches) https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/diego-maradona/leistungsdaten/spieler/8024/plus/0?saison=1992 Maradona 1979-81(19 to 21 years old) before the Barcelona move was most likely according to objective parameters(goals,assists,playmaking etc)same level as Messi 2009/10(age 22) but with considerably less protection from refs Maybe even better creatively(This developed at an elite level later on for Messi) You can ask vegan but i think Maradona 81 had one if not the highest seasonal rating in Argentine football history https://www.pagina12.com.ar/308244-1981-el-mejor-ano-de-diego-en-argentina
Maradona 79-81 https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3434&start=120 Messi 2009/10 https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9995 Maradona had Better passing,better technique and finishing Pes is not gospel but we can say There is some substance to this Messi 2008/09 and 2009/10 age 21-22 for Barcelona scored 77 goals+30 assists in 8292 minutes(92~ matches) 1.16 goals+assists per 90 Maradona age 20-21 in 1980 and 1981 for argentinos juniors and Boca scored 71 goals+37 assists in 7619 minutes(84~ matches) 1.28 goals+assists per 90 Both were considered to be in the top top echelon of footballers during the relevant time frame(top 2) Messi with Cristiano Diego with Zico (or karl heinz rummenige?) Others like before prime Platini,Keegan,dalglish,blokhin,Schuster could be comparable to prime Fernando Torres,steven Gerrard,Xavi,lampard,iniesta,Rooney etc
Guys, can we not just try and talk about football and leave everything else to one side? @carlito86 Please PM me if you want to talk further.
I think I've said everything i wanted to mate Just a final thing Hiding/editing the problem is not the same thing as solving it I'm not sure what is required for you to intervene Not to mention the clear double standards at play which is a bit of a side issue Good day now
@PuckVanHeel I'm talking separately (as much as is possible) about their abilities - their touch, the precision of their passing, dribbling, shooting, their ball manipulation and inventiveness etc etc. Upon further thought, Pele was already really accomplished by the late 50s and Cruyff himself compared favourably to a technical marvel like Rivera while still very early in his career. While Messi looked very good even directly against Zidane or alongside Ronaldinho by 2005. George Best too already showing ATG ability by early 20s. How do you see it in terms of being the best?
@carlito86 That's what I was alluding to, Maradona reached a really high level on many facets of his technical game very early.
I would argue that many greats reach their technical peak quite early in their career. Partly because many of the top technical skills require a certain level of athleticism to pull off, and most players are at their physical peak before 25. However, many players are at their most effective even when their technical/physical prowess are not longer at their peaks because players don't have the necessary understanding of the game (ie. experience and football IQ) until like 28 years old.
While I can see how this can be true, especially for something like dribbling, which requires as much physical condition as technique, how about passing, shooting and other elements of technique e.g. freekick ability - the trend seems to show these growing with time. Though as you say experience would play a part too i.e choosing the right moment to apply particular technique.
Ah, the truth about lynch mobs forcing people into line - both the silent people and objecting people - cannot be said. I'll never return again to this board section. You can be certain of that. (Luckily, some publications like France Football aren't entirely following the dominant downbashing agendas)
You're a racist and the rest of this blabber is just smokescreen Its enough to say you don't like a guy(who was barely cold in his grave) You then called people who loved/liked him as hailing from 'sick parts of the world' A comment which was promptly edited by moderators That's the real You A sad lonely man
Yes, I suppose you're right. I was thinking more about dribbling and ball control. Other techniques are probably less reliant on athleticism. Passing, in general, is a lot more about intelligence and vision than athleticism, for example. From a mechanical point of view though, I still think people reach their technical peak when they're at or close to their physical peak. In terms of effectiveness, perhaps it is less important as experience plays a major role.
Proud to be that for you, and proud to be a "colonialist" as well. Previously I had placed you on ignore - the archetypal fake news machine. That your insulting drivel can stand here unscathed and unmoderated for a week shows I'm right to not return with contributions. To annoy you a bit more, here a reading tip for you. https://www.forbes.com/sites/duncan...rtest-countries-in-the-world/?sh=6506e445163f Well, it bears relevance to observe that everyone who a) either abstains (for ex. the rugby team) or b) disagrees, was mobbed into line by these figures. And not liking a gun-shooting friend of Chavez, Castro, Escobar, Cammorra (with festive parties where many illegal things happened) - no matter how brilliant a footballer - is a no-brainer. It are the sick parts of the world - and it has an influence on the actual football, protected by goons as Grondona (now, with their political power gone, it seems they have trouble producing new footballers ever since). Otherwise IMF wouldn't be intervening every five years and we wouldn't be so stupid to send billions each year to these mismanaged places (we could have been as rich as Switzerland if we hadn't been so silly). There is a so called 'sick man of Europe' and there are sick parts of the world, full with cheating, lying and backstabbing. Doesn't sound nice but that's the way it is. You yourself were buying in the mythology of "an impoverished nation taking on a colonial power" (which has no bearing at all to the mechanisms in sport or football itself). You can see 'sick' as an other term for 'impoverished' if you like.
Dude.... The Netherlands is not some beacon of humanity https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...et-300-muslims-die-in-bosnian-war-court-rules https://besacenter.org/perspectives-papers/netherlands-war-crimes/ Declarations from The Hague Not some kangaroo court from a 'tinpot' impoverished nation Are the Dutch also sick for the cowardly betrayal of your nations representatives? Just please continue humiliating yourself talking about things that are completely over your head Let's keep things in perspective and related to football Maradona is a cultural icon A player who transcended his sport While he was being mourned for by millions around the world you call his mourners sick? A question for you? Is being affiliated to guys like Castro/Chavez a crime within itself? Maradona wasn't part of their security apparatus nor did he have any sway in affairs of state Sure he shared some of their ideals and was a supporter(in spirit)of their revolution but so freaking What There is no perfect man puckvanheel (not even a perfect white man) One mans terrorist is also another mans freedom fighter It's just a matter of perspective and world view It is true there are some clear cut cases where every seemingly rational minded person can agree on(Hitler,Stalin,Iwane Matsui,gengis Khan,himmler etc) People of that ilk Fidel Castro and democratically elected Hugo Chavez were nowhere near that demented. not even close imo After that There is a 'grey area' and it just comes down to perspective If this thread is about technique there isn't anyone more technical than Diego maradona Pure and simple That is the consensus of most fans(learned and unlearned casual fans) Maradona could be affiliated to 100 despots It doesn't change the objective reality of his footballing technique which is thus far unmatched So start there and continue forth
As a related footnote on that level: current South Africa is perhaps more a "beacon of humanity" [sic] than any of the dwindling South American countries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Country_Index https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...l-powers-still-loth-to-admit-historical-evils In recent years South America has struggled to produce world class players, and indeed world class technicians. With an inferior financial position and a declined political position (in sports and football, allowing them shortcuts), that will possibly continue.
Don't know if someone mentioned him already but, just in terms of dribbling, I'd say Hatem Ben Arfa is about as good as you can get: And this is just one season, at 31-32 years old. I see very few other players in history with such close control and ability to change speed and direction so quickly. It's a shame that he didn't have a career as great as his talent. Still a joy to watch him play, though.