Best technique

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Alessandro10, Jan 30, 2019.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I did that Waddle post as quick as I could at the time, but had intended to put in a goal like at 12:07 here if I could have found it:
     
  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #327 carlito86, Aug 14, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019

    Technically
    Prosinecki>Zidane >iniesta>>>isco
    Not because "older is better" rather because anyone viewing this objectively would really admit they weren't technically in his league



    Every 90s elite technician had his own style that differed from the next.
    Technically,football reached its zenith in the 90s and declined thereafter

    Cruyff predicted this in an excerpt taken from a 1994 interview:

    "The technique has degraded, without any doubt. But it is inevitable. If you need to run so many meters like they do nowadays, you have to be technically inferior. It is the only way.

    I think everyone can make up the mind for themselves. The good ones, the elite, have also technique, that is self-evident. But if you look at the lesser ones, the average, that is a big difference. Also self-evident. And then I talk simply about basic-technique; kicking left, kicking right, juggling and receiving with two legs, ball on the chest, heading. Very simple things. I do not talk about [silence], no, normal things. That has degraded."

     
  3. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Absolute bollocks. Running past defender is infinitely more effective and reproduceable than doing anything technique wise thats why football will always fancy physicality over technique, always.

    It seems quite a bit like "older is better".

    This same phenomenon is objectively observed in everything that has any kind of competition in it, literally. From music to sports. That is literally observed in every single sport that i can think and it always somehow coincedes that people roday think 90s of the respective sport are the best ever. Coincedence?
    Among many effects, one such is survivorship bias.

    But lets put everything aside. What would explain a drastic decline in technique?
    Everything happens for a reason. Life is deterministic. Every effect has the cause. Theory of evolution is right. So what principles in evolution or in phyiscs or in life in general could possibly explain "older is better" claim for football?
    You odnt get to just claim it is objectively true. Why decline happened? Explain the ins and outs.
     
  4. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Predicted?
    He literally says the 90s era (the middle,1994) that you claim to be the zenith of football, has declined in technique.

    Quote you posted is in obvious contradiction with what you are trying to claim. What the hell man?

    This is classic you. Argument that is in a direct contradiction with your claims, you represent as argument in your favor.
     
  5. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    If all you took from that comp is prosinecki "running past defenders" then you either didn't watch it or are visually impaired

    Prosinecki mastered most of the main components of technical skill set
    Dribbling at pace
    Dribbling from a stationary position
    Long passing
    Crossing
    Shooting with either foot( from distance or close proximity)

    Decline did happen and there is no contradiction (the prime of prosinecki happened in the 90-94 period

    NOT the second half of the 90s when he suffered from injuries
    He was a chain smoker too( as Cruyff /socrates)which puts his performance into some perspective
     
  6. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Prosinečki is the opposite of running. If he had speed, the dribble at 2:25 would be 5 seconds shorter. We dont even see if he fully manages to get away at the end.

    My point is that prime R9, Henry, Mbappe(to become) will always be better than Bergkamp, Prosinečki, Riquelme or whoever.. speed and good technique beats technique and good speed.

    So, football has declined in 1990-1994, but at the same time, the 90s are the zenith of football... yeah it makes sense.
     
  7. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #332 carlito86, Aug 15, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
    Read the quote again because it is self explanatory and I'm not bothered

    There will always remain elite technicians
    Technical football didn't completely die in 1994

    The decline would be more noticeable amongst average-good-bad players that essentially covers 99.9999% of all pro players
    If you don't agree that's also fine but it is as clear as day for me

    2 of the most recent best players from the EPL
    Hazard and salah are technically deficient in huge areas of the game

    Salah in his aerial game
    FKs
    Equal footedness
    Passing
    Dribbling with the ball (check his pes stats)

    Hazard less so (an expert dribbler of course)
    Still lacking in FKs
    Heading
    Finishing

    Really only excelling in short passing and (definitely)dribbling

    We could move to ligue 1 and neymar jr is literally the most helpless header of the ball who happens to be a great player
    First touch is great without being legendary (on par with salah-pes stats)

    His saving grace is his balance,agility and passing range
    A reasonably good finisher too (world class range I think)

    Again lewandowski the closest in style to Shevchenko is a noticeable downgrade (technically)



    The examples are endless (comparing sheva to MVB technically is another downgrade
    Van Basten could hold the ball as well as kane/firmino today
    Could play with his back to goal
    Could play on the flank
    Shoot with either foot from 25 yards
    Volleying technique
    Had great 1 touch play
    Heading technique
    Etc.......

    There is a noticeable downgrade technically not athletically
    This is different from saying tactically football hasn't improved or the game hasn't got faster, players fitter etc

    Still questions have to be asked
    why can defenders today do everything except defend

    How does a player as salah/mane get touted as some of the best in the world with such huge technical deficiencies

    Why dont we see goalscorers today regularly finish with finesse which was common place amongst strikers 20-25 years ago

    There is a noticeable decline
    Again if you don't see it that's your problem
     
  8. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    The consensus amongst arsenal fans is Bergkamp and Henry at arsenal were at similar level in terms of influence
    Most opting to place Henry marginally ahead in England

    Crucial difference is Bergkamp also had "another life" where he finished runner up in the ballon dor to Roberto Baggio and consistently beat Romario to Dutch player of the year awards


    Bergkamp was ballon dor runner up in 92 and PFA player of the year in 98 which showed greater "elite longevity" than TH14
    I don't see the comparison as particularly close factoring the whole careers of each player( and not just cherry picked periods)

    Bergkamp was 35 years old in 2006 (old man )
    Henry was only 29 when he left arsenal
    Limiting the comparison to achievements at Arsenal FC favours Henry in more ways than one
     
  9. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    So your definition of 90s being the zenith of football doesnt include the highest quality of football in general, as in, the average player of 90s is better than any other eras average player,
    but that 15, 20 cherry picked (elite) players of 90s are better than any other cherry picked 15, 20 players of other era.
    Interesting and extremely stupid..
     
  10. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    I dont care about consensus. Henrys prime coincides with the best seasons in Wenger's manegerial careers.
     
  11. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    I am not sure if youve noticed but humans perception is often flawed. I dont care what you notice. It has to be explained in rational way. Thats how science works, btw, and scientific method is the best way humans came up with to differentiate the truth from everything else. You dont just get to say its obvious and end it there. Its intellectually dishonest.

    So i will ask again. Why? Why would all of a sudden quality of football decline? Whats your hypothesis that eyplains it?
     
  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #337 carlito86, Aug 15, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
    Football is not a science and that is where we fundamentally disagree

    Concepts such as the intricacies of technical football cannot calculated and pigeonholed through data sites as sofa score/whoscored/whateverscore

    For example
    Why is R9 a better dribbler than CR or more 'devastating' in his prime?

    Do you possess any data at either World cup or continental level that would point towards this being a scientific fact or is it primarily based on your 'flawed' observation

    Can you scientifically prove Lionel Messi with less official goals as Pele/puskas at club and international is the uncontested GOAT

    Technical football(it's definition) differs from one to the next
    Many insisting to limit it to first touch/trapping

    Others preferring to broaden it to many important facets of the game

    How can there be a scientific method to calculate something that isn't concrete and established

    Even just taking first touch as an example

    Is there any scientific algorithm that can calculate how many times player X trapped the ball
    With which body part
    His success rate
    It doesn't exist

    So this already cannot be scientifically established (yet)

    Again I'm responding to someone with a very condescending tone
    So fix it or we stop here
     
  13. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #338 carlito86, Aug 15, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
    Who is wenger
    A manager who won 3 league titles in 20+ years of his managerial career
    Was a consummate failure in Europe
    Was slam dunked by mourinho in their head to head battles

    Henry was not the best in his first league title that was (clearly)Robert Pires

    Bergkamp was the clear cut best in England during 97/98 with arguably a higher peak as Henry 2002-2006

    The top 3 club players of 97/98 were R9,ADP and Dennis Bergkamp

    His achievements in ajax matter
    Not to you maybe but they were good enough to earn him a top 2 ballon dor placement

    Remind me the last time a eredivisie player finished top 3 in the ballon dor during the last 40 years
    Even Marco van Basten couldn't do that
     
  14. Alessandro10

    Alessandro10 Member

    Dec 6, 2010
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    At all those aspects(dribbling and long balls, crossing) Isco is great. Especially at dribbling and ball retention. His touch is as good as any player in today's game.
     
  15. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    @carlito86
    There is no need to calculate anything to apply deductive reasoning.

    I am not saying you are wrong with 90s hypothesis, but you havent gone past: 90s are best. The end.

    There is the list of reasons why it makes sense for football to be better than ever. I can't think of any particular reason that would explain drastic decline of football from 90s onwards. The way you describe it, it would need to be something of world war proportions or at least as big as the biggest ever financial crisis. Even then, connections with crisis and football would remain unclear.

    When anomality as such occurs, it is normal to ask questions. (And it is anomality relative to what theory of evolution would say) You still havent proposed one reason that would remotely explain why players that played in 90s would for some magical reason be drastically better than the ones we see today. Because of what reasons would football produce lesser talents and players today? What has culturely changed?

    ...btw, you cant prove that your perceptions and biases on Bergkamp are objectively correct, by adding perceptions and biases of people who choosed him for 2nd best player in the world and etc. You probably, among other reasons, formed your opinion on bergkamp getting to that 2nd place, so you cant use the same award to validate your opinion. It is circular logic. It requires higher level perspective.. hence why i am more interested and insisting on understanding higher order principles on statistics and evolution than relying on my percpetion and biases by watching videos or even sofa scores ratings and such.

    You miss rigurosity in your thought. You believe in things you want to believe. Its funny how 90s coincides with your childhood.
     
  16. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    @PuckVanHeel
    A small olive branch

    I found this on a unrelated search on rob resenbrink

    1:54

    Talking about technique
    What a freaking outrageous finish!!!!!(context/opponent? )

    This is a rare goal I'm assuming (not the first time he did it-also his comeback goal on his second stint for ajax against haarlem)
     
    La-Máquina and PDG1978 repped this.
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, this was against Real Madrid in 1977. Literally all his goals against them are great goals :D The solo goal in 1976 you've seen also very nice.

    I'll look whether the video you have found has some noteworthy bits.
     
  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid

    A nice short comp showcasing his technique
    The last of the mohicans soundtrack seems to go pretty well with it too
     
    La-Máquina repped this.
  19. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid

    @PDG1978
    Between littbarski and waddle who would you opt for as being the more technical dribbler?

    Do dribbling stats exist for waddle and littbarski in WC90
    Anyone?
     
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Difficult question, but I might be inclined towards Littbarski, with his slick manipulation of the ball in tight spaces (it could be physical reasons come into it in terms of allowing him to display that though I guess, as I'm sure he would twist and turn easier and not only due to height difference).

    I don't think I ever saw any purely 'successful dribbles' stats in any details for World Cups even though occasionally it seems OPTA or Castrol referred to the most in a single World Cup (Maradona, then Jairzinho I think) or overall, without showing lists.
     
  21. Alessandro10

    Alessandro10 Member

    Dec 6, 2010
    Club:
    Juventus FC
  22. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017

    I wonder what kind of results can be obtained if this test was done on players from different eras?
     
  23. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid

     
    Bavarian14 repped this.
  24. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017


    Took 14 years for someone to recreate this iconic goal
     
  25. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    Big difference though ..
    Ronaldinho’s was very rarely seen toe-bung ..
     

Share This Page