Pelé lowered his goal contribution and rate in friendly matches, mate. But yes he played a lot including friendlies, it certainly came at a cost. A curiosity, Pelé had more xA (expected assists) than xG (expected goals) in the 1970 World Cup (and he was the highest player of Brazil in terms of xG+xA per 90 minutes... and overall only for a minimal fraction behind Muller in xG+xA/90 who scored 10 goals in that tournament). Messi is in his best assisting season I think and he is averaging 0.68 expected goals (0.54 non-PK expected Goals) and 0.54 expected assists per 90 in La Liga. Neymar reached 0.83 expected goals (0.67 non-PK expected goals) and 0.53 expected assists per 90 in La Liga 2015/2016 and he was closer in 2017/2018 Ligue 1 with 0.83 expected goals (0.68 non-PK expected goals) and 0.62 expected assists per 90. Data from Understat. According to statsbomb, however, Messi is now with the same rate of expected Non-PK Goals and assists (0.49 per 90) this season, and Neymar in the 17/18 season averaged 0.58 expected Non-PK Goals and 0.59 assists per 90. 0.01 expected Assists per 90 than non-PK Goals. But still they had more expected goals (with PKs) than expected assists. Cruyff like Pelé very likely had at some point seasons and/or tournaments with more expected assists than expected goals.
According to whoscored They are not comparable At league level Lewandowski 19/20 > Suarez 15/16 Be consistent Suarez 15/16 was a poacher with a playmakers instinct Maybe the first of his kind At the end of the day its just opinions but Suarez in la liga 15/16 + PL 13/14 + CL 14/15 Plus what he did before and after at club and international is no less than romario 1992-1994 Im not even talking just about gpg Even the technical beauty of the game 1276800669031129088 is not a valid tweet id Chips,solo goals,freekicks,visionary passes,nutmegs Suarez 11-14 was a soloist of the same quality as Romario Even if you say Romario could score the same amount as Suarez 15/16 He would never assist at his rate Romarios excellence in 93/94 was restricted to la liga Suarez 15/16 was brilliant in the league,Copa del rey,FCWC and champions league In a league format it could go either way(id personally choose romario) Outside of it Suarez 15/16 was just way more productive and ultimately consistent Is prime van basten objectively better than Suarez? I mean if you directly replaced Suarez 2014 with van basten 1988 will you get the same level of goals,assists,playmaking,pressing and dribbles per match I don't know im asking as you may have data for European championships or something ? There are some clear cut cases of players Or should i say certain versions of players Pele 1959-1964 Messi 2010-2012, 2015, 2018, 2019 R9 (1996/97 and first half of 1997/98) CR 2008,2010-2013 and last half 2014 Cruyff 1971-74 Ronaldinho 2004(last half 2005) I don't need stats to tell me they are a class above Suarez They are so much more visually impressive and as /or considerably more productive players. (R9 aside) also considerably better in big games When you say van basten or Romario,R9(minus 1.5 seasons) and you say its clear cut/no debate Then maybe you need to rewatch Suarez The consensus seems to be Suarez is the least technical Yet how is Suarez 11-14 arguably the least dependent on service to score goals? Romario was a freaking beast in 93/94 la liga The best a box striker has ever been or can ever be My reservations are only with regards to what he did outside of it I think his influence outside the box is vastly overhyped on forums like this Not just all his goals for Milan but also the build up play leading to those goals Do You think it is likely (going by your 'objective' metric of using advanced data) that van basten 88-92 or Romario 1994 dribbled or created more than Suarez at his peak physical condition ? Do you think they were better ball carriers? You be honest now
Yes, I think. I also rate Henry above him, not sure about Eto'o but in the game. Suarez had a great season at 2013/2014 and was a good poacher with legendary playmakers as Messi and Neymar offering the best service for him in 2015/2016 season. Romário, R9, Van Basten, Muller, Henry are all above Suarez. Suarez is alongside peak Ibra, Lewa, Aguero, Eto'o, Bergkamp if you consider etc. Better than Cavani, Benzema and Higuain tho.
61 - Cristiano #Ronaldo is the fastest player to score 50 goals in Serie A (61 appearances) - among the players who made their debut since 1994/95. Sprinter.#JuventusLazio #SerieA pic.twitter.com/Fy6hQ6xW4W— OptaPaolo (@OptaPaolo) July 20, 2020 Cristiano Ronaldo 50 serie A goals+15 assists 17 penalties taken 5338 minutes played With penalties 1.09 goal+assist per 90 Without penalties 0.80 goal+assist per 90 Ronaldo de lima 50 serie A goals+8 assists 5505 minutes 15 penalties taken With penalties : 0.94 goals+ assists per 90 Without penalties: 0.70 goals+assists per 90 Andriy Shevchenco 50 serie A goals+ 8 assists 9 penalties taken 5753 minutes played With penalties 0.90 goals+ assists per 90 Without penalties 0.76 goals+assists per 90 And people will talk about penalties ignoring the fact that without them he is still more productive than any one of shevchenco,R9,van basten etc Ignoring the fact he is in his mid 30s And they were in their early to mid 20s Ignoring the fact that he is still at 35 years old a better creator than any of them were in their primes Instead for all that he has achieved and even though he is one of the true greats of this sport CR remains its most disrespected Most disrespected by far Also Ignoring the fact that he is widely considered the best Serie A performer over the last 2 seasons https://one-versus-one.com/en/compare-players/cristiano-ronaldo-vs-Robert-Lewandowski https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/1...7835/PlayerStatistics/Italy-Serie-A-2019-2020 For example someone like Platini never was Not even before Maradona came to the league 1982/83 and 1983/84 Vierchwood is better than koulibaly? Zico at 34 years better than illic? Salvatore bagni Gerónimo Barbadillo Liam Brady These are just regular world class players found in every top league in every single era Serie A never became a real top league till the late 80s and lasted until the mid 90s Before then with all due respect platini a central midfielder won 3× Capocannoniere No central midfielder ever won 3× top scorer in a top league I mean we could either say This entirely goes to his credit Or we could say Serie A in the early to mid 80s was a league thin on quality Roberto pruzzo 3× Capocannoniere 0 goals in 6 caps for Italy 12 goals in 27 EC/Uefa cup matches Domenico penzo 82/83 Uncapped for NT Finished runner up to platini for top scorer With 15 Serie A goals Altobelli Admittedly much greater a world cup champion with a solid record but he is only one player Outside of zico who played one proper season in Italy And Alessandro Altobelli There is really no remarkable strikers in the period covering 1980-1985 Dare i say Serie A from 1980-85 never had a single striker of the pedigree of prime Didier Drogba. Or we could say it is a combination of both factors Platini was himself undoubtedly a phenomenal player A phenomenal player that benefited from playing in a league thin on quality strikers up until the tail end of his Juventus career A phenomenal player who benefited from playing in the best team in Italy with the best support cast I mean that sounds reasonable Instead we get the party lines and disingenuous claims that Serie A in the entire 80s was some untouchable league stacked to the brim with all timers Claims That van basten was some unbeatable striker But the unbeatable striker won only 1× Capocannoniere from 88-92 and he was not competing against eusebio, puskas,Muller,Messi or Cristiano. He was competing against aldo serena I find that history usually takes care of this
🇳🇱 A tireless player & the man for the big occasion....🥳 Happy birthday, Dirk Kuyt! #UCL | #HBD | @Kuyt pic.twitter.com/Uov6MrRE3a— UEFA Champions League (@ChampionsLeague) July 22, 2020 The most underrated 'member' of the previous generation (~2004-2014).
Zlatan ibrahimovic played in the champions league Not the uefa cup vs Strasbourg and neutchal So it isn't a fair comparison Ibrahimovic was hopelessly incompetent in the Champions league for inter And so was R9 So this is restricted to serie A only the 2009 version of Zlatan was called by the Italian press ibracadara The magician In this guise he is possibly the greatest European CF ever 25 goals+10 assists in the league No one ever did this except ballon dor winner 91/92 van basten In a Dutch poll taken in 2007 with 38,000 participants 58% thought van basten was greater This is 2007 mind you When ibrahimovic was the highly technical but still inconsistent striker who would shine only in patches Fabio Capello who worked with both gave them the following scores in areas of technical ability Zlatan - Marco Shot 8-9 Headings 8-9 Precision 9-9 Sprint 9-8.5 Coordination 9-9 Ball control 9-9 Strength 9-8 Total 61 - 61.5 Van basten was just a fraction better than ibrahimovic according to Capello He (Capello) then goes on to talk about he had van basten as a mature/developed 27 year old world class player while zlatan was still immature/rebellious and inconsistent Yet Zlatan and Marco both move very elegantly on the field. They are equals in that. " He then talks about van bastens competitive nature(he was a champion who hated losing even in training) He regrets that van basten had to quit his career so early and is adamant that the world never saw the real peak of Marco......" https://www.nu.nl/jurryt/1311558/van-basten-versus-ibracadabra.html It goes on and on You can read if you want but I'm just setting the scene for who inter ibrahimovic was according to real experts So when I say Ibrahimovic 2009 is as great as anything R9 showed in Serie A it isn't or at least shouldn't be viewed as something outlandish or wishful Ibrahimovic was on a real super level in Serie A before he went Barcelona This is from the lowly/uneducated(according to tropiero) forum Pes stats Van basten 1988-1992 prime Ibrahimovic inter Milan 2007-2009 Ibrahimovic PSG 11-13 So technically at least he's at that level (according to many opinions) Zlatan scored 300+ top level league goals 310 league goals in 492 appearances in Serie A,eredivisie,ligue 1,la liga and premier league He deserves respect
His short passing could even be upgraded to be honest Ibra had that killer ability to play the perfectly weighted through ball Maybe the best ever CF in that regard (would have to review way more footage of van basten) This comp was uploaded in January 2010 and covers all those inter/juve years and half season in Barcelona 2009/10 Pes stats has always overrated classical pre 2000 era players rare exceptions of course Cruyffs long passing/crossing in 1974 lower as Roberto baggio in 1994 https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3058 https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3492 I don't know I just don't see it(that 92 long passing grade Wasnt evident in the 94 world cup or in most club matches I saw He was good but not that good Baggio really developed his Playmaking later in his career or at least used it more often) But overall PES stats have their points and R9 97/98 in Serie A wasn't some unbeatable level anyways 25 goals(6 pens) +4 assists It's been done With the skills and high level intensity dribbles? probably not But the end product wasn't unique even within the context of 1990s football And the end product is the bottom line through which titles/championships are won Edit: Ibrahimovic has played top level football in 4 separate decades 1990s(his debut for malmo) 2000s 2010s 2020s That is incredible longevity Guys like lothar matthaus,savecevic and stoichkov were still pro players when ibra made his debut
Christian Vieri in Serie A 2002/2003 was very impressive, underrated in terms of how great he was in his prime; his only weakness was that he was very very left-footed, for example, at World Cup 2002 he failed to score a clear-cut chance for a right-footed person, but Vieri missed it because he tried to take the shot with his left foot and the chance was lost. His career was devastated by injuries which is why he's underrated; already a shadow of himself at any point after the 2002-03 season, which was his last complete season, after that Vieri was injured most of the time and eventually he just gave up. Which, to be fair, I completely understand. I mean, it must be extremely frustrating to work through 2 or 3 months of a grueling rehabilitation process, only to play 3 or 4 weeks and then get injured again for another 2 months.
The ballon dor has been cancelled yet the European golden shoe race is emerging to be a very interesting race indeed After his hattrick today Ciro immobile is now equal with Robert lewandowski with 34 league goals apiece Ronaldo is 3 behind with 3 games to go Cristiano once scored 9 league goals in 3 matches in 2010/11 but he was a 26 year old man in his physical prime Someone could point to the high volume of penalties the Serie duo have taken but there is only 1 European golden shoe Not one for penalty goals And one for non penalty goals Dybala is out and juve will take their foot off the gas after winning the scudetto If i was a betting man id wager immobile will win this outright
2009/10 Top 5 la liga chance creators #TBT most key passes in La Liga 2009/10:Xavi (109)Duda (84)Pedro León (81)Cristiano Ronaldo (75)Juan Mata / Luis García (73) pic.twitter.com/WzmLSmxll0— WhoScored.com (@WhoScored) January 19, 2017 1.)Xavi 105 key passes in 2804 minutes 3.3 Kp per 90 2.)Cristiano Ronaldo 75 key passes in 2465 minutes 2.74 Kp per 90 3.)Pedro leon 81 key passes in 2749 minutes 2.65 Kp per 90 4.)Duda 84 key passes in 2893 minutes 2.61 Kp per 90 5.)Juan Mata 73 key passes in 2581 minutes 2.55 Kp per 90 Top 3 la liga goalscorers 09/10 1.)Lionel Messi 34 goals in 2840 minutes 1.07 goals per 90 2.)Gonzalo higuain 27 goals in 2395 minutes 1.01 goals per 90 3.)Cristiano Ronaldo 26 goals in 2465 minutes 0.95 goals per 90 Top 5 la liga dribblers 1.)Lionel Messi 4.6 dribbles per 90 2.)Cristiano Ronaldo 3.3 dribbles per 90 3.)Ion Velez 3.2 dribbles per 90 4.)Joaquín 3.1 dribbles per 90 5.)Andres iniesta 2.8 dribbles per 90 https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2.../3218/PlayerStatistics/Spain-LaLiga-2009-2010 Best 9 ever? View attachment 182033
Messi and C.Ronaldo are center forwards? 5+ years on this forum and watching eusebio live in the 1970s
They’re both prolific scorers - I’d certainly regard them as striker / forwards than midfielders .. grow up
Cruijff not receiving a veteran bonus while Maradona, Beckenbauer and even Ronaldo Fenomeno does (!!) takes the cake. Typical pseudo-mathematical babble from the Thailand dictatorship product, the serial snubber, the double handicap brigade. Ronaldinho/Zico among the playmakers/midfielders and not forwards... That's the usual gold plating ploy.
stats in Whoscored (since season 09/10) pts= (shot%*shot onT per 90m) Goal pts (goal/shot onT)*100 pts= (goal%*goal per 90m)
https://fbref.com/en/players/1f44ac21/Erling-Haland This web has stats of shots on target since season 1998/99 I took the numbers only for domestic leagues First goal/shot onT*100 Then goal% multiplied by goal per 90 minutes
Every Player to score 30+ Non-Penalty Goals in a season in all competitions in the 21st Century (Top 5 Leagues only) | Major Trophies Won Lionel Messi - 59 in 60 | 2011-12 | Cup Lionel Messi - 55 in 50 | 2012-13 | League Luis Suarez - 55 in 53 | 2015-16 | League x Cup Lionel Messi - 52 in 57 | 2014-15 | Treble Cristiano Ronaldo - 48 in 54 | 2014-15 Cristiano Ronaldo - 48 in 55 | 2012-13 Lionel Messi - 48 in 55 | 2010-11 | League x Cup Robert Lewandoski - 47 in 47 | 2019-20 | Treble Lionel Messi - 46 in 50 | 2018-19 | League Cristiano Ronaldo - 46 in 55 | 2011-12 | League Lionel Messi - 45 in 52 | 2016-17 | Cup Lionel Messi - 45 in 53 | 2009-10 | League Cristiano Ronaldo - 44 in 54 | 2010-11 | Cup Cristiano Ronaldo - 43 in 48 | 2015-16 | CL Zlatan Ibrahimovic - 43 in 51 | 2015-16 | Domestic Treble Mohamed Salah - 43 in 52 | 2017-18 Lionel Messi - 42 in 54 | 2017-18 | League Cristiano Ronaldo - 41 in 47 | 2013-14 | CL x Cup Edinson Cavani- 41 in 50 | 2016-17 | Domestic Treble Robert Lewandoski - 40 in 51 | 2015-16 | Domestic Double Klaas-Jan Huntelaar - 39 in 48 | 2011-12 Luca Toni - 39 in 46 | 2007-08 Mario Gomez - 38 in 45 | 2010-11 Harry Kane - 38 in 48 | 2017-18 Edin Dzeko - 38 in 51 | 2016-17 Neymar - 38 in 51 | 2014-15 | Treble Cristiano Ronaldo - 37 in 44 | 2017-18 | CL Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang - 37 in 46 | 2016-17 | Cup Lionel Messi - 37 in 49 | 2015-16 | Domestic Double Luis Suarez - 37 in 51 | 2016-17 | Cup Edin Dzeko - 36 in 42 | 2008-09 | League Kylian Mbappe - 36 in 43 | 2018-19 | League Didier Drogba - 36 in 44 | 2009–10 | Domestic Double Cristiano Ronaldo - 36 in 49 | 2007-08 | League x CL Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang - 36 in 49 | 2015-16 Mario Gomez - 36 in 52 | 2008-09 Roy Makaay - 36 in 54 | 2002-03 Gonzalo Higuian - 35 in 42 | 2015-16 Mario Gomez - 35 in 44 | 2008-09 Cristiano Ronaldo - 35 in 46 | 2016-17 | League x CL Robert Lewandoski - 34 in 47 | 2016-17 | League Robert Lewandoski - 34 in 48 | 2017-18 | League Edinson Cavani- 34 in 48 | 2017-18 | Domestic Treble Robert Lewandoski - 34 in 49 | 2012-13 Lionel Messi - 34 in 51 | 2008-09 | Treble Lionel Messi - 33 in 46 | 2013-14 Fernando Torres - 33 in 46 | 2007–08 Zlatan Ibrahimovic - 33 in 46 | 2013-14 | League x League Cup Robert Lewandoski - 33 in 47 | 2018-19 | League x CL Ciro Immobile - 33 in 47 | 2017-18 Samuel Eto’o - 33 in 47 | 2005-06 | League x CL Robin van Persie - 33 in 48 | 2011–12 Samuel Eto’o - 33 in 53 | 2008-09 | Treble Didier Drogba - 33 in 60 | 2006–07 | Domestic Cup Double Ruud van Nistelrooy - 32 in 44 | 2002-03 | League David Trezeguet - 32 in 46 | 2001-02 | League Thierry Henry - 32 in 51 | 2003–04 | League Karim Benzema - 32 in 52 | 2011-12 | League Gonzalo Higuian - 32 in 55 | 2016-17 Dries Mertens - 32 in 64 | 2016-17 Luis Suárez - 31 in 37 | 2013–14 Giovane Élber - 31 in 48 | 2002-03 | Domestic Double Raul - 31 in 50 | 2000-01 | League Raheem Sterling - 31 in 52 | 2019–20 | League Cup Kylian Mbappe - 30 in 37 | 2019-20 | Domestic Treble Miroslav Klose - 30 in 40 | 2005-06 Luca Toni - 30 in 42 | 2005-06 Wayne Rooney - 30 in 44 | 2009–10 | League Cup Luis Suárez - 30 in 44 | 2012–13 Thierry Henry - 30 in 45 | 2005–06 Robert Lewandoski - 30 in 47 | 2011-12 | Domestic Double Ronaldo - 30 in 48 | 2003-04 Radamel Falcao - 30 in 50 | 2011-12 | Europa League Luis Suarez - 30 in 51 | 2017-18 | Domestic Double Karim Benzema - 30 in 52 | 2007-08 | League Double Diego Costa - 30 in 52 | 2013-14 | League Antoine Griezmann - 30 in 54 | 2015-16
https://moesquare.medium.com/football-flashbacks-ronaldo-luís-nazário-de-lima-bebee6134d1c I think the ones of Careca, Romário, Adriano (his peak), Tostão (more of a false nine) etc were all good/excellent CFs, but R9 due to his dribbling ability, freakish athleticism is the best Brazilian nine imo. The best U21 player after Pelé (above Messi, Mbappe, Maradona etc), the level of impact he had in his first season at Inter and Barcelona was GOAT-level like despite tendency to be a solista (passing wasn't at his game at all), he raised his teams to dispute titles (he could have won both leagues: Italian and Spanish) and win trophies, all you expected from the most expensive player of his time. Post-peak R9 (2002-2005) was no less than someone like Harry Kane or Lewa nowadays imo. My Brazil XI - attacking/forwards ----------------------- R9 ---------------------------- Neymar ---------- Pelé -------------- Garrincha R9 (1996-1997, 1997-1998) Pelé (1961-1965) Neymar (2017-2018) Garrincha (1962)