Best Striker At Their Prime?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Bavarian14, Dec 27, 2018.

  1. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #2901 lessthanjake, Jul 17, 2026
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2026
    I think you’d actually expect good teams to respond to that kind of organized low block by overloading the midfield and wide areas to get the ball into the attacking third and then patiently circulating the ball there probing for an opening. The teams facing Argentina instead circulated the ball and probed mostly in the middle of the pitch instead of pouring forward to get the ball into more dangerous positions. You don’t have to do that, and it’s not the way to score the most against that defense. But you do it if pouring forward is too risky.

    In general, I think you should ask yourself whether it really is typically the case that one team playing a defensive, compact, low block actually results in the other team playing cautiously. You’re making that claim but I really don’t think that’s right at all. Teams basically always respond to those kinds of tactics by pushing up and attacking, unless they’re really afraid of what the opposing team’s attacking players can do in space on the counterattack. We see these kinds of matches all the time in club football, and it doesn’t usually create the tactical result you’re suggesting it does.


    The fact that Argentina didn’t have much else going forward is exactly why Messi should get the lion’s share of the credit when it comes to opponents not wanting to commit fully to attacking. You’re right that Messi wouldn’t have much to create danger with him. But Messi himself carries the big risk of beating multiple players and making a solo play or near-solo play. Teams really don’t want to give him space to do that.

    Possession-based teams typically do what I described above: They get the ball into the attacking third and probe for openings, rather than staying in the middle third. They do this by pushing players forward and creating overloads that allow them to advance the ball into the attacking third and then they probe from there. The result is significantly more of the game played in the attacking third than teams had against Argentina and significantly less of the game played in the middle third than in those Argentina games. So no, I don’t think Argentina’s tactics are adequate to explain what happened. Possession-based teams face those sorts of tactics all the time—often against teams with defensive talent, not to mention opponents often having more defensive organization than any NT can have. The result usually really isn’t like 2014 Argentina’s matches. Fear of Argentina’s attack pretty clearly changed the tactical outlook, and as you point out, there wasn’t much in Argentina’s attack to force that besides Messi.
     
  2. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I think you're skipping an important part of the picture. Your argument depends on a false tactical dichotomy. You assume that if Germany or the Netherlands weren't constantly attacking the final third, it must have been because they were afraid of Messi. But football doesn't work like that. The defending team also determines where the match is played. You're treating Argentina's defense like it was just sitting on the edge of its own box waiting to react. In reality, Sabella's midfield constantly closed the central spaces. Germany and the Netherlands spent so much time in the middle third because breaking through Mascherano, Biglia and the rest of that defensive block was extremely difficult, not simply because Messi's presence scared them away.

    I don't think that conclusion really follows either. You argue that because Messi was Argentina's only real attacking threat, he deserves almost all the credit for the opponents' caution. The same fact actually cuts the other way. Once Di María was out, Agüero wasn't fully fit and Messi was isolated, an elite coach like Van Gaal or Löw could reasonably conclude that the odds of Argentina producing a devastating long distance counterattack were relatively low. What they still had to solve was one of the best defensive structures in the tournament. That alone explains why so much of the game became a slow battle in midfield without assuming fear of Messi was the main driving force.

    The comparison with club football has the same problem. You're assuming the tactical principles transfer directly when the conditions are completely different. Possession teams like Guardiola's Barcelona or Manchester City spend years developing the chemistry needed to overload low blocks in the final third. National teams simply don't have that level of coordination. Germany circulated the ball through midfield because international possession football is naturally slower, more cautious and less polished than elite club football. That explanation already accounts for what happened without needing Messi's presence to be the primary cause.
     
  3. El_Bicho77

    El_Bicho77 Member

    Real Madrid
    Portugal
    Jun 26, 2026
    Indonesia
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    Continuing my research on players who scored 5 or more goals in a single world cup edition from 1930 till 2026 and here are the results:

    1930 WC: 2 players
    Guillermo Stabile 8 goals
    Pedro Cea 5 goals

    1934 WC: 1 player
    Oldrich Najedly 5 goals

    1938 WC: 4 players
    Leónidas 7 goals
    György Sárosi 5 goals
    Gyula Zsengellèr 5 goals
    Silvio Piola 5 goals

    1950 WC: 2 players
    Adèmir 9 goals
    Óscar Míguez 5 goals

    1954 WC: 4 players
    Sándor Koscis 11 goals
    Erich Probst 6 goals
    Josef Hügi 6 goals
    Max Morlock 6 goals

    1958 WC: 5 players
    Just Fontaine 11 goals
    Pelé 6 goals
    Helmut Rahn 6 goals
    Vavá 5 goals
    Peter McParland 5 goals

    1962 WC: 0 players

    1966 WC: 2 players
    Eusebio 9 goals
    Helmut Haller 6 goals

    1970 WC: 3 players
    Gerd Müller 10 goals
    Jairzinho 7 goals
    Teófillo Cubillas 5 goals

    1974 WC: 3 players
    Grzegorz Lato 7 goals
    Johan Neeskens 5 goals
    Andrzej Szarmach 5 goals

    1978 WC: 3 players
    Mario Kempes 6 goals
    Rob Rensebrink 5 goals
    Tèofillo Cubillas 5 goals

    1982 WC: 2 players
    Paolo Rossi 6 goals
    Karl Heinz Rummenigge 5 goals

    1986 WC: 4 players
    Gary Lineker 6 goals
    Diego Maradona 5 goals
    Careca 5 goals
    Emilio Butragueno 5 goals

    1990 WC: 2 players
    Salvatore Schilacci 6 goals
    Tomas Skuhravy 5 goals

    1994 WC: 6 players
    Hristo Stoichkov 6 goals
    Oleg Salenko 6 goals
    Roberto Baggio 5 goals
    Romario 5 goals
    Jürgen Klinsmann 5 goals
    Kennet Anderson 5 goals

    1998 WC: 3 players
    Davor Suker 6 goals
    Christian Vieri 5 goals
    Gabriel Batistuta 5 goals

    2002 WC: 3 players
    Ronaldo Nazario 8 goals
    Rivaldo 5 goals
    Miroslav Klose 5 goals

    2006 WC: 1 player
    Miroslav Klose 5 goals

    2010 WC: 4 players
    David Villa 5 goals
    Wesley Schneider 5 goals
    Diego Forlan 5 goals
    Thomas Muller 5 goals

    2014 WC: 2 players
    James Rodriguez 6 goals
    Thomas Muller 5 goals

    2018 WC: 1 player
    Harry Kane 6 goals

    2022 WC: 2 players
    Kylian Mbappe 8 goals
    Lionel Messi 7 goals

    2026 WC: 7 players
    Kylian Mbappe 10 goals
    Lionel Messi 8 goals
    Erling Halaand 7 goals
    Jude Bellingham 7 goals
    Harry Kane 6 goals
    Ousmane Dembele 6 goals
    Mikel Oyarzabal 5 goals

    If the 2030 world cup will have 64 teams there would be no doubt that the number of players to score 5 or more goals will increase.
     
  4. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
  5. anamnesis del fútbol

    Apr 9, 2021
    #2905 anamnesis del fútbol, Jul 27, 2026
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2026
    Eusébio between 1964-66 (Prime)

    122 games
    152 goals (1.25)
    354 team goals (2.90)
    42.94% goal contribution

    Ronaldo between 1997-99 (Prime)

    153 games
    107 goals (0.70)
    316 team goals (2.07)
    33.86% goal contribution
     
  6. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #2906 Tropeiro, Jul 30, 2026
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2026


    Not Mbappe, not Messi, he is the player with the sharpest on point reactions of all time. It is like watching a Olympic, Tier A level athlete playing football.
     
  7. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
  8. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #2909 carlito86, Aug 6, 2026 at 2:07 PM
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2026 at 2:13 PM
    Wiliam armed with his fake sources underrating me as usual.


    IMG_9058.jpeg

    IMG_9035.gif
     
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  9. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
    carlito86 repped this.
  10. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024

    One player on this list of top scorers
    surprised me very positively—
    the player named Waldo.








    He finishes with the same style as Pelé.
     
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  11. NeuerGOAT

    NeuerGOAT Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 18, 2023
  12. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
  13. Frank73

    Frank73 Member

    Inter Milan
    Brazil
    Mar 22, 2025
    Italy
    Ronaldinho's numbers are rather poor considering his reputation, as a matter of fact. But Zidane is even worse (that is, overrated) in this respect.
     
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  14. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
  15. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024

    yes ,

    I consider Zinedine Zidane overrated too.

    Honestly speaking to you Frank 73,

    I consider all players from 1996 to 2026 to be super - overrated.

    Because of global marketing and professional football since 1996, becoming very very media-savvy and with global marketing around us.

    These media-savvy and famous players are signing bigger contracts with major global brands.


    like Nike , Adidas , Coca Cola, Pepsi , Rexona , Gatorade , Puma ..etc..

    famous commercials airing around the world



    But Zidane—
    at least
    in decisive matches—
    delivered much more++++ than Ronaldinho Gaucho

    and what's more,

    Zidane
    put in
    a lot of defensive work-rate too

    during the seasons

    the 1995–1996 Bordeaux season

    mainly the 1996–1997 season for Juve
    and the 1997/98 season

    to some extent, too



    Zidane was more complete than Ronaldinho.
     
  16. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024

    on Neymar Jr & on Ronaldinho Bruxo



    honestly speaking to you


    personally

    i prefer Didi Folha Seca , Zagallo Mario , Zico , Clodoaldo , Rivellino , Jairzinho & Tostão



    for sure .. Zico & Didi were more complete players .than both of them Ney & o Bruxo Ronaldinho .."!
     
  17. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    There is more to the game than assists and goals

    zidane kept the ball well and was a great passer. He could drive the ball anywhere on the pitch and create secondary assists. Good ball winner and aerial threat etc

    xavi, Iniesta and busquets are the best midfield 3 I have ever seen, their basic stats are poor for goals and assists etc but look how dominant they were
     
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  18. Frank73

    Frank73 Member

    Inter Milan
    Brazil
    Mar 22, 2025
    Italy
    Zidane would not play as deep as Xavi, not even as Iniesta. He was a "trequartista", like Platini, and in the NT often deployed as a forward. His G+A numbers are a bit underwhelming as a matter of fact. Much in the same way as Van Basten's, his reputation has been boosted by a handful of landmark performances that happened to be watched by billions of people in the world (and this could well be down to virtue, actually, not necessarily a twist of fate). But if we consider the whole career, he has fallen short of matching players who are nowhere near his usual positioning in the best ever rankings.
     
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  19. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Hum... no.

    Zidane didn't play as deep as Platini but -at the same time- he didn't play as far forward.

    Their average position is the same, but Platini had a much more 'vertical' game, whereas Zidane played on the whole width of the field (much more on the left side than on the right side though).

    I once calculated that Zidane either scored or set up (through assists or secondary assists) 70 goals (in 108 caps) with France.
     
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  20. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member+

    Jan 28, 2020
    Ronaldinho left Brazilian national team perhaps too early. He could have played in the 2010 (he would be 30 years old) and 2014 (34 years old) World Cups. He played in only one edition of the Copa América (1999) in his entire career. We know the reason (lack of professionalism), but it's still a strange case for a Ballon d'Or winner to be sidelined by his national team.

    Neymar has incredible numbers for the national team, but he hasn't won any major titles. Even though he won the 2013 Confederations Cup, it's considered a minor tournament. To make matters worse, even the Copa América that Brazil won during this period (2019) was without him in the squad.

    Zidane was the greatest playmaker I have ever seen. Goals, assists, and even pre-assists fail to measure the work he did on the pitch. Yeah, he’s no Pelé, but if you compare him to other amazing World Cup-winning playmakers like Gerson/Rivellino in '70, Overath in '74, Ardiles in '78, Antognioni in '82, Xavi, Iniesta, Kroos, etc., I’m still taking Zizou.
     
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  21. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    1D0F1E78-D4E2-4B1D-8055-1D6D90CDBF5B.jpeg
    0F0B74A6-3209-4D79-893A-0D2A817A5E8E.jpeg
    8A2C7ADD-DA42-4994-8418-F2C935D546E7.jpeg
     
  22. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024






    Platini is embracing this more media-driven and more ++++ modern era of the world football.

    If Xavi is treated like a god nowadays ,

    imagine Platini. He would be treated like a true alien. !


    Platini, the best playmaker in history

    Platini and Didi
     
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