Best Striker At Their Prime?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Bavarian14, Dec 27, 2018.

  1. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    IMG_6344.jpeg IMG_6343.jpeg

    The suspicion of doping

    Ronaldo Luiz Nazário de Lima, known as Ronaldo is preparing to end his career in disappointing fashion, the victim of a series of injuries as rare as they are severe. In view of the repetition of these “missteps,” the suspicion of doping cannot be entirely dismissed.

    On 13 February 2008, AC Milan were playing Livorno. Ronaldo began the match on the substitutes’ bench. He came on during the match, only to collapse three minutes later upon landing from an entirely ordinary jump, the kind he had performed thousands of times throughout his footballing life.

    The patellar tendon of his left knee gave way all at once. The Brazilian had no illusions about the nature of the pain. It was the third time in his career that he had suffered the same accident.

    For rupture of the patellar tendon is an extremely rare condition in sport. We searched for its frequency in the scientific literature devoted to football trauma medicine. Most articles do not even mention it. “A knee specialist sees at most one per year,” comments Pascal Christel, a French orthopaedic surgeon. According to his colleague Michel Zimmerman, it is more likely to affect athletes such as weightlifters.

    In football, however, let us repeat, this type of lesion is practically unknown. What is altogether extraordinary in Ronaldo’s case is, of course, the repetitive character of the injury. By definition, a tendon is composed of extremely solid material. That it should rupture three times — twice on the right and once on the left — is simply unprecedented.

    There is, however, another explanation which does not require an appeal to the supernatural. Ronaldo’s present misfortunes may quite simply be the result of aberrant therapeutic choices established throughout his career.


    The PSV period and alleged anabolic substances

    In 1994, Ronaldo arrived in Europe at only seventeen years of age. He joined the Dutch club PSV Eindhoven, where he was considered somewhat light. Indeed, he weighed 75 kilograms at a height of 1.83 metres. How did the doctors set about making him gain weight? This is not known with certainty. What is certain is that the young player rapidly thickened out.

    “In the Netherlands, Ronaldo joined a gymnastics academy,” Brazilian doctor Omar de Oliveira believes. “He was then subjected to a special diet with courses of creatine.”

    Was it only creatine? “No,” replies his colleague Bernardino Santi:

    “I spoke with Dutch colleagues who know the people at PSV Eindhoven. Ronaldo was truly thin, and they were administering supplements to him, including certain anabolic substances to help him develop.

    One of the aggravating factors comes from the fact that he acquired a powerful muscular structure very young and very rapidly. The price to be paid for the use of anabolic steroids is long-term: ten, fifteen, twenty years later.

    Steroids cause structural lesions of the organs and of the musculature. In principle, there is a gain in quality, in strength, and in power; but afterwards, it deteriorates.”

    In the wake of these revelations, to say the least embarrassing, Doctor Santi was dismissed by the Brazilian Football Confederation, within which he had been responsible for coordinating the fight against doping. He was accused of having no proof for what he had asserted.

    As for Ronaldo himself, he remains remarkably discreet concerning this part of his life. Yet all those with short memories should be reminded that doping substances are common currency in football, especially Dutch football, and that this is nothing new.

    For example, Jimmy Van Rompou, doctor of the Dutch club AZ’67, stated in L’Équipe on 28 October 1976 that “doping is widely widespread among the footballers of [his] country.”

    The same note is struck by his colleague, Doctor John Rolnik, doctor of Ajax Amsterdam in the 1980s:

    “Following an investigation extending over sixteen years among approximately 1,000 professional players playing in the Netherlands, one footballer in eleven in the Dutch championship uses stimulants.”


    Medication dependence and playing through injury

    To know more, one must turn to Ronaldo’s medical file. Thus one learns that already in 1995 he was suffering from chronic tendinitis of the left knee, while the right was hardly in better condition. The following year, he underwent surgery for the first time for the removal of a bony outgrowth, a classic after-effect of Osgood-Schlatter disease.

    Did this operation serve any purpose? That is far from certain. A few stolen images from his private life show Ronaldo limping increasingly badly. On match days, he took his dose of Voltarène — anti-inflammatory tablets — in order to erase his pain.

    His dependence on medication was such that, at the time of his transfer to Inter Milan in 1997, it worried the club doctor, Doctor Piero Volpi, who recommended withdrawal:

    “Voltarène served only to deaden the pain during the match.”

    Were his recommendations followed? One may doubt it. Ronaldo played around fifty matches that year and seemed incapable of saying no to an entourage that absolutely wanted him on the pitch. In short, he is suspected, like many other professional athletes, of holding out by means of medication.

    This allowed him to string together matches and clubs: Eindhoven, Barcelona, Inter Milan, Real Madrid, AC Milan. In doing so, he also exposed himself to a worsening of his lesions.

    This observation appears to apply to Ronaldo’s case. After his final operation, a press release from the Pitié-Salpêtrière hospital stressed the poor prior state of his knee:

    “A complete rupture of the tendon flush with the kneecap was found, with pre-existing tendinitis lesions that had been responsible for tendon pain for several months.”

    One question remains: for “several months,” or for several years?


    The Fiat that became a Ferrari

    Ronaldo’s story is summed up in this statement by an Italian journalist fond of motor racing:

    “When he arrived at PSV Eindhoven, Ronaldo was very thin. When he left, he had become very muscular. But his tendon was still the same. If you have a Fiat, however fantastic a little car it may be, if you put a Ferrari engine inside it, it will give out on you.”

    The little car in question would give out all the more quickly if people continued to do just anything. In Ronaldo’s case, the list of negligent practices is still long. After his possible Dutch courses of anabolic steroids and his almost certain dependence on anti-inflammatories, we must mention a third factor that could explain this tendon fragility: cortisone.


    The 1998 World Cup final and infiltrations

    Recall the importance of the player in the Brazilian team’s set-up on the eve of the 1998 World Cup. He had to play, whatever the cost. His malaise a few hours before the World Cup final seems, to say the least, mysterious. In reality, this collapse is better explained if one analyses the facts reported before the France–Brazil final of 12 July.

    Seized by convulsions in the hours preceding the match, he remained doubtful until kick-off, yet played the match under pressure from Brazilian sporting authority. But in what condition? In reality, he had been suffering from his knees since the beginning of the World Cup, and the medical staff were giving him infiltrations so that he could play despite his impairment.

    Moreover, this kind of product contains an anaesthetic which, if partly injected into a blood vessel, can cause shock with loss of consciousness, which may be mistaken for an epileptic seizure. This kind of accident is not rare and can make one fear the worst. Indeed, one of his teammates recounted that he had believed the Inter Milan striker was going to die.

    Let it be noted that, a few years earlier, a young soldier of twenty-five died following such an injection, administered, as in Ronaldo’s case, to calm pain in the knee.

    As far as Ronaldo is concerned, we consider that the practice of infiltrations must, without any possible dispute, be assimilated to doping.
    DOPAGE DANS LE FOOTBALL : QUI A TUE LE BRESILIEN RONALDO ? | La Tribune des Antilles
     
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  3. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Understat Data 2014/15–2023/24

    Best Long-Range Goalscorers

    Open-play goals from outside the box compared to the xG of those shots

    [​IMG]
     
  4. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    It's genuinely hilarious how you distort stats as much as you can to make CR7 look bad. Like, whatever nonsense you just posted that literally means nothing - you definitively manipulated whatever stat, found CR7 at the bottom, reacted with glee and posted it. No one cares about your fake stats. CR7's real numbers speak for themselves and can't be manipulated.
     
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  5. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    #2632 benficafan3, May 11, 2026
    Last edited: May 11, 2026
    Gave some thought to the GOAT argument and have concluded CR7, Messi and Pele Top 3, Maradona falls out of the Top 4 to me because his club career comparatively is absolute tiers below those 3 in at least an order of magnitude and one moonshot tournament does not override hundreds of games in the grand scheme things. They dominated continents across time. He dominated a single country (with a great supporting cast in Careca, etc. as opposed to popular belief). Not saying he isn't Top 10 but in a discussion among those 3 he simply does not belong, IMO, and I don't care what nostalgia and Argentine rhetoric comes into the picture. He could have been the most talented player of all time but his overall career, specifically his club career, does not reflect that and place in the GOAT discussion. I don't care how competitive Serie A was in the 1980s - it could be the best league ever but a league will never in any way compare to a continental competition, much less when the comparators in this discussion didn't just win said continental competitions but dominated them. If that Napoli team was so good Maradona would've found a way to make an impact int he European Cup and didn't. And again, he had Brazilian and Italian NT starters in his team. The fact that he was ever actually in a discussion against Pele is beyond absurd.

    It is actually a serious slight, IMO, for a constant cheat (throughout his career, handball goal against England, doping in 94, handball against the Soviets in1990) should be even in the same breath as three players that gave it their all through constant discipline and integrity at the highest levels. It's not even just a morality thing. It's about virtue, which is a serious thing and speaks to the overall structure of a person. He lacked it. They had and have it in abundance. They are role models. Maradona is not. And the virtue and integrity or not simply moral comments, but they explain, particularly the virtuous aspect, why those 3 could play at such high levels over such a long time and why Maradona's best instance as a footballer is an example of shining brightly for a brief moment.

    Virtue promotes longevity, it is a "perfectant" of power that allows a person to act consistently and enduringly toward their objective. Vice, as Maradona had through his career, is naturally self-destructive and unstable. Stability and duration are signs of higher perfection, ontologically and so Maradona does not meet the standard for me.

    Pele of the 3 (and of any player ever) had the highest level of natural genius to me as exhibited at the 1958 World Cup. Dominating and winning a World Cup at 17 (his country's first especially) is unparalleled and demonstrative of his natural talent level. He dominated at international and club level.

    Messi has the highest peak of any player ever to me. His natural genius is likely second highest behind Pele but he benefited from having a perfectly tailored environment at Barcelona since he was a child. That's not a slight but it is a truth that aided his ability to reach that peak level. But again, it's the highest ever of any player, IMO. He would have been on this list without his World Cup win so having that obviously only aids him tremendously, as it should.

    CR7 is the most constant variable of any player ever due to his work ethic and also because his most crowning achievement is becoming the undisputed best player in Champions League history, which, functionally is bigger than it sounds. The Champions League is inarguably the most free-market competition that has ever existed in the sport. Clubs can buy anyone they want with the single objective of winning the competition. It is as a controlled experiment of the highest level football that can be engineered and he dominated it entirely. 5 wins as the primary player, across two clubs, dwarfs any other player in not just goals but knockout stage goals specifically. He has arguably the greatest willpower of any athlete in history and definitionally when it comes to greatness, it does not mean best, most talented, etc. It is a word that denotes difficulty and overcoming obstacles and it doesn't matter what era, team, etc. you put him in, he will outwork you and anyone else which is why he succeeds everywhere and anywhere he goes. And all this needs to be considered that he did it competing against Messi.

    In terms of ranking between the three, I'm still not concluded.
     
  6. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    And to clarify, Messi, CR7 and Pele are not perfect, virtuous beings. Each had off-field antics that were the opposite of virtue. But on the field, they were arguably as perfectly virtuous as a human can be. Thus their unparalleled dominance, longevity and stability in the most played sport in human history.
     
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  7. Agility

    Agility Member

    Jan 17, 2019
    #2634 Agility, May 12, 2026
    Last edited: May 12, 2026
    Pele also played his entire Prime With Sontas he benefited from having a perfectly tailored environment at there since he was a child. So you can't play here this card.
    Pele also played with best Super national team ever existed. Others (Messi, Maradona, CR7) didn’t have that opportunities.
    Pele is the only player in top 5 player of all time. Who played for Super team for both Club and NT.
    Level of professionalism of his era was nowhere near in current era.
    He was probably very few Footballer in his era who was playing with professional dedication like CR7 does now. So he was playing against mostly semi pro or amateurs. Difference is now everyone is Pro. Amid CR7 is extreme Pro.
    Imagine Messi and Ronaldo playing their prime against semi pro or amateurs with super team!!
    I am not saying pele is not all time great but we have to remember this with when compare pele's individual statistics.
    Regardless Pele remain top 3 player of all time
     
  8. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    that's totally Bullshit my God



    the own Pelé says :



    so Many Many Brazilian players from the 1940s and 1950s

    were declared fans of Ferenc Puskás...the major from God

    because they had played

    friendly matches against Budapest Honved Club

    or the Budapest Selection in the Inter-Cities Games


    Puskas

    has

    1270 Matches +

    1569 Goals +

    1020 Assists +

    including inter-cities games


    so ..


    Pelé's father

    named Dondinho

    was a fan of Puskas

    he always talked to Pelé about him

    so

    in 1959

    in a friendly match

    against Real Madrid

    Puskas' Madrid

    from the photos of this match

    it's clear

    that Pelé is totally happy and emotional
    to play against Puskas

    who his father

    was a huge fan of always


    My Football Manager Head-coach, named Bauer, Bauer played Sao Paulo FC ...50's

    was a fan of Puskas too.


    has so many many brazlian players ...40's and 50's...

    who actually saw Puskas play really at truth ..


    well,

    Pelé mentions always in Brazil here that he was really very very impressed with Di Stefano's Total Football on this match .



    Pelé was inspired by Di Stefano.


    Pelé mentions Di Stefano as the best player of all time.


    Pelé in the 80s

    became very good friends

    with Zico, Socrates and Platini...

    then

    Pelé watched several entire Maradona or Gullit matches live Serie A Calcio 1987/1988

    season ..

    Between Di Stefano and Maradona Pelé says :

    Pelé always said: Di Stefano was very much more complete than Maradona.

    Maradona only equals me and Di Stefano in terms of technique.

    Beyond that, he's somewhat limited.

    From the full matches I saw of Maradona in the Italian league...Serie A Calcio

    Years later,

    I saw these full matches of Maradona and I had the same impression as like Pelé.

    Gullit impressed me much more than Maradona in full matches.

    He was also more complete than Diego ... in a shorter time .


    already


    Di Stefano
    and
    Pelé

    for those who actually saw the three of them play full matches

    like me I did it so many many times already to watch full matches from them...


    Maradona is well behind Pelé and Di Stefano
    Maradona only was one Ronaldinho Gaucho improved !
     
  9. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024

    Total Garbage at all !


    as simple as that !
     
  10. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024

    For me


    easier time on Football ...

    is since 1999-2000 season

    until 2026 .....


    The where limit on foreign players is over.

    It became very very easy for the European giants to dominate.

    And more.

    From Ronaldinho Gaucho onwards, the referees started to protect many much more star players, making the game easier for them !

    victories with long legs worth 3 points etc..etc..
     
  11. Gregoire

    Gregoire Member

    Mar 22, 2011
    Pele/Messi

    gap

    Maradona
    Cristiano
     
  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #2639 carlito86, May 16, 2026
    Last edited: May 16, 2026
    Robert lewandowski joined Barcelona just shy of his 34th birthday and leaves a legend


    There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that as far as the 21st century is concerned he is the greatest striker.


    It would be nice to see him for a season in the premier league maybe for a team like Manchester United (and hopefully Casemiro can stay too for some much needed experience playing in the UCL next season)


    Legend






    He has won 14 league titles in his career
    1 league title in Poland
    2 league titles with Dortmund
    8 league titles with Bayern Munich
    3 league titles with Barcelona
     
  13. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member+

    Jan 28, 2020


     
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  14. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member+

    Jan 28, 2020
  15. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
  16. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
  17. Nomagico87

    Nomagico87 New Member

    Barcelona
    Italy
    Mar 25, 2026
    #2644 Nomagico87, May 17, 2026
    Last edited: May 17, 2026
    Kane 25/26 16 goals from the spot 16/19.

    Lewandowski 19/20 7/7.

    Lewandowski 20/21 33 open play goals in 29 Bundesliga games

    Kane 25/26 26 open play goals in 31 Bundesliga games.
     
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  18. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    npg per npxG
    Ibrahimović (15/16)
    1.386
    Lewandowski (20/21)
    1.306
    Kane (25/26)
    1.224
    Suárez (15/16)
    1.152
     
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  19. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
  20. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
  21. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
  22. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
  23. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #2650 carlito86, May 23, 2026
    Last edited: May 23, 2026

    IMG_6772.jpeg Eusebio: One-on-One | FourFourTwo

    It seems Eusébio’s memory of this goal wasn’t completely accurate.


    He did lob one player and smash the ball into the back of the net before the goalkeeper had any chance of saving it, but he never lobbed two players.
    In terms of technique I guess it could be comparable to this goal by Pele in the World Cup final vs Sweden in 1958 but the finish of Eusebio was better.


    Until now I haven’t seen this type of goal(the one Eusebio thought he scored) actually being produced in a professional match

    Romario failed to do so


    There are also newspaper reports stating that Pelé succeeded in scoring this type of goal against “Juventus” in 1959, and even a cartoon/computer simulation that supposedly reconstructs how he scored it.



    But the actual video footage of the goal does not exist.
     
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