Thank you, After some years, I think a fresh eye is welcome, moreover with new info and contributions.
The most prominent SA sides in the early 1920s NTs in Copa America: ARG (1920-2º, 1921-1º, 1922-4º) - 14 points URU (1920-1º, 1921-3º, 1922-3º) - 12 BRA (1920-3º, 1921-2º, 1922-1º) - 9 PAR (1921-4º, 1922-2º) - 7 CHI (1920-4º, 1922-5º) - 2 International Clubs: C.Competencia 1919 (played 1920) --- Semif. (Boca 1:0 R.Central) ---------------------------- Final (Boca 2:0 Nacional Montevideo) C.Aldao (played years after) ------------- 1919 --- Nacional Montevideo 3:0 Boca ------------- 1920 --- Boca 1:2 Nacional Montevideo C.Honor 1920 --- Pre-final (Boca 1:2 Banfield) C.Ibarguren 1920 --- Boca 2:1 Tiro Federal, and 0:4 return leg -------------------- champion ---------- 2nd ------------- 3rd AFA 1920 ------- Boca Jrs --------Banfield ------ Huracán AFA 1921---------Huracán ------- Del Plata ------ Boca Jrs AFA 1922 -------- Huracán ------- Palermo ------ Boca Jrs Arg Am 1920 ------- River ---------Racing ----- San Lorenzo Arg Am 1921-------Racing ---------- River ------Independiente Arg Am 1922 - Independiente ----- River ------ San Lorenzo Uru 1920 -------- Nacional--------- Peñarol ---- Central Español Uru 1921 --------- Peñarol--------- Nacional ------- Universal Uru 1922 -------- Nacional-------- Wanderers ----- Rampla Jr Paul 1920 --- Palestra Italia ------Paulistano Paul 1921 ------Paulistano ----- Palestra Italia Paul 1922 ------Corinthians -----Palestra Italia Car 1920 -------- Flamengo ------ Fluminense Car 1921 -------- Flamengo -------- America Car 1922 --------- America --------- Flamengo Bah/Min 1920 - Ypiranga(Bah) - America(Min) Bah/Min 1921 - Ypiranga(Bah) - America(Min) Bah/Min 1922 - Botafogo(Bah) - America(Min) Par 1920 ---------- Libertad ---------- Olimpia Par 1921 ---------- Guaraní ----------Nacional Par 1922 --------------- not played Chi 1920 ------ Magallanes* -------Artillería** Chi 1921 ------ Magallanes* ----- Wanderers** Chi 1922 --- Brigada Central* ----- La Cruz** Per 1920 --------Sport Inca -------Sport Progreso Per 1921 --- Sport Progreso -----Jorge Chávez Per 1922 ---------------- not played 1920 - Campeones Estaduales (1º Paulistano, 2º Fluminense, 3º GE Brasil) 1922 - Selecciones Estaduales (1º Paulista XI, 2º Bahia XI, 3º Carioca XI) Note: Argentina's ligue split into two, AFA (the official) and Amateur (stronger league) Car is for Carioca ligue Paul is for Paulista ligue Bah is for Bahia champion Min is for Mineiro champion * Is for champion of Santiago's ligue ** Is for champion of Valparaíso's ligue
1920-22 : KEEPER: TESORIERE, Américo (Arg) - Boca Jrs / Sportivo del Norte - *** KUNTZ, Julio (Bra) - Flamengo - ** GUERRERO, Manuel (Chi) - La Cruz - ** LEGNAZZI, Juan (Uru) - Peñarol - ** MARCOS Mendonça (Bra) - Fluminense - ** MAGISTRETTI, Guillermo (Arg) - Tigre / S.Palermo - ** CROCCE, Marcos (Arg) - Racing - ** BELOUTAS, Manuel (Uru) - Universal - ** RIGHT BACK: URDINARÁN, Antonio (Uru) - Nacional - ** BENINCASA, Jose (Uru) - Peñarol - ** CELLI, Adolfo (Arg) - Newell's - ** CORTELLA, Antonio (Arg) - Boca Jrs / Platense - ** SALDARRIAGA, Alfonso (Per) - Unión Buenos Aires - ** PRESTA, Juan (Arg) - Porteño - ** OMAR, Pedro (Arg) - San Lorenzo - ** LEFT BACK: FOGLINO, Alfredo (Uru) - Nacional - *** POIRIER, Ulises (Chi) - La Cruz - ** BEARZOTTI, Florindo (Arg) - Belgrano Rosario - ** TEJERA, Domingo (Uru) - Montevideo Wanderers - ** REYES, Armando (Arg) - Racing - ** SARASÍBAR, Florencio (Arg) - Rosario Central - ** FERRO, Antonio (Arg) - Independiente - ** RIGHT HALF: RUOTTA, Pascual (Uru) - Peñarol - ** LÓPEZ, José (Arg) - Boca Jrs - ** MATOZZI, Ernesto (Arg) - Estudiantil Porteño - ** ELGUETA, Humberto (Chi) - Gold Cross - ** CENTRE HALF: AMILCAR Barbuy (Bra) - Corinthians - *** DELLAVALLE, Miguel (Arg) - Instituto / Talleres Córdoba - ** FLEITAS SOLICH, Manuel (Par) - Club Nacional - ** MEDICI, Segundo (Arg) - Boca Jrs - ** ZIBECCHI, Alfredo (Uru) - Nacional - ** GARCÍA, Cándido (Arg) - River Plate - ** OLAZAR, Francisco (Arg) - Racing - ** DELGADO, Juan (Uru) - Peñarol - ** VAZQUEZ, Ramón (Arg) - Huracán - ** LEFT HALF: FORTES, Agostinho (Bra) - Fluminense - ** VANZZINO, Jose (Uru) - Nacional - ** SOLARI, Emilio (Arg) - Nueva Chicago - ** USLENGHI, Eduardo (Arg) - Porteño / S.Palermo - ** CARBAJO, Telmo (Per) - Atlético Chalaco - ** RAVERA, Andrés (Uru) - Peñarol - ** UNZAGA, Ramón (Chi) - Estrella del Mar - ** RIGHT WINGER: CALOMINO, Pedro (Arg) - Boca Jrs - *** SOMMA, Pascual (Uru) - Nacional - ** FORMIGA; Xavier Camargo (Bra) - Ypiranga / Paulistano - ** CARRICABERRY, Alfredo (Arg) - San Lorenzo - ** PERINETTI, Natalio (Arg) - Racing - ** CANAVERY, Zoilo (Arg) - Independiente - ** ARREMÓN, Juan Pedro (Uru) - Peñarol - ** INSIDE RIGHT: NECO; Manoel Nunes (Bra) - Corinthians - *** LIBONATTI, Julio (Arg) - Newell's - *** ZABALETA, Alberico (Arg) - Racing - ** SCARONE, Hector (Uru) - Nacional - ** HOSPITAL, Juan (Arg) - Racing - ** ZEZE Guimaraes (Bra) - Fluminense - ** LAIOLO, José (Arg) - River Plate - ** DOMINGUEZ, Aurelio (Chi) - Artillero de Costa - ** CENTRE FORWARD: FRIEDENREICH, Arthur (Bra) - Paulistano - *** PIENDIBENE, José (Uru) - Peñarol - *** TARASCONI, Domingo (Arg) - Atlanta / Boca Jrs - ** SOSA, Gabino (Arg) - Central Cordoba - ** HEITOR Domingues (Bra) - Palestra Italia - ** SCARONE, Carlos (Uru) - Nacional - ** LOPEZ, Ildefonso (Par) - Guaraní - ** CLARKE, Edwin (Arg) - Porteño / S.Palermo - ** BADALINI, Atilio (Arg) - Newell's - ** INSIDE LEFT: ROMANO, Angel (Uru) - Nacional - *** SEOANE, Manuel (Arg) - Independiente - *** RIVAS, Gerardo (Par) - Libertad - ** CHIESA, Angel (Arg) - Huracán - ** ECHEVERRÍA, Raul (Arg) - Estudiantes La Plata - ** CASANELLO, Norberto (Uru) - Montevideo Wanderers - ** ROFRANO, Nicolás (Arg) - River Plate - ** GRADÍN, Isabelino (Uru) - Peñarol - ** HAYES, Ennis (Arg) - Rosario Central - ** LEFT WINGER: CAMPOLO, Antonio (Uru) - Peñarol - ** FRANCIA, Juan (Arg) - Rosario Central - ** ORSI, Raimundo (Arg) - Independiente - ** DE MIGUEL, Antonio (Arg) - Newell's / Rosario Central - ** CHAVÍN, Jaime (Arg) - River Plate / Huracán - ** SARMIENTO Koochoi, Jorge (Per) - Sport Alianza - ** Note: Famous players as Abdón Porte (1918), Roberto Chery(1919), José "Botija" Pérez (1920), Alberico Zabaleta (1923) died at a younger age. Another famous player, Isabelino Gradín, used to competed at Athletics more than football.
Resume for 1920-22 era: Club/Players: Peñarol - 9 Nacional Montevideo - 8 Racing Club - 6 Boca Jrs - 6 Others - 4 or less Country/Players: Argentina - 41 Uruguay - 20 Brasil - 9 Chile - 5 Paraguay - 3 Perú - 3
Great overview What is the base of the ratings? And if those are yours, could you perhaps elaborate on the 2 stars of Agostinho Fortes Filho and Héctor Scarone?
Thank you, just like the other lists, this is a "list under construction". I take as first step, an old list of mine and crossed it with Tom lists. Then, check the Copa America squads and most representatives players from top countries. Ultimately, I check the formations of main clubs of the era. With a quick research on Internet and with rough estimation from my view, is how I made the lists. In the case of Héctor Scarone, in this era, he was replaced in the uruguayan NT for J.Perez (Peñarol), Casanello (Wanderers) and Heguy (Central), whom played in the other strong clubs of the 1920-22 era. I don't know why he played few caps, but that fact, lowered his usual "3 stars" (world class) rating in my view. In the case of Agostinho Fortes, I considered Friedenreich and Neco more crucial players. In an era dominated by Paulista clubs, being him a Carioca player, I didn't found hard evidence to give more than 2 stars to a Wing Half. I also think his most sucessful era was the late 1910s. Of course, I'm open to suggestions.
About Agostinho, I'd say that he did win more as a teenager but his peak must have been around 1922, where he was player of the Copa América. Neco only scored 2 goals there. His call-up for the 1930 WC, also shows longevity for his position.
Fortes stands as the best SA left halfback at this era, and considering RSSSF page, given him the Best Player award, it could be logical a 3 stars rating. LEFT HALFBACK - correction FORTES, Agostinho (Bra) - Fluminense - *** VANZZINO, Jose (Uru) - Nacional - ** SOLARI, Emilio (Arg) - Nueva Chicago - ** USLENGHI, Eduardo (Arg) - Porteño / S.Palermo - ** CARBAJO, Telmo (Per) - Atlético Chalaco - ** RAVERA, Andrés (Uru) - Peñarol - ** UNZAGA, Ramón (Chi) - Estrella del Mar - ** Another case I studied, was Guillermo Dannaher, topscorer of the 1921 league, but played very little to nothing at 1920 and 1922. So, I didn't considered him. Another, I was in doubt, was Piendibene vs Friederenreich, the uruguayan won MVP at Copa America 1920, but seems to have decrease his level next years. Friedenreich had a consistent performance during this period. So, beyond 1st or 2nd places, I see both as a technical draw with a 3 stars rating.
I searched for Copa America 1949 informations, but there isn't much written about it and they care more about winning the Basketball Championship (???)
@msioux75, I can't find the middle and late 1920s best South American players list. Is it possible I can see it soon ?. Thanks.
1923-26 : KEEPER: TESORIERE, Américo (Arg) - Boca Jrs. - *** MAZALI, Andrés (Uru) - Nacional - *** DÍAZ, Octavio (Arg) - Rosario Central / Boca Jrs. - ** CROCE, Marcos (Arg) - Racing - ** LEGNAZZI, Juan (Uru) - Peñarol - ** MAGISTRETTI, Guillermo (Arg) - S.Palermo - ** CASELLA, Pedro (Uru) - Belgrano / Rampla Jrs. - ** IRIBARREN, Jorge (Arg) - San Martín / River - ** RIGHT BACK: NASAZZI, José (Uru) - Bellavista - *** BIDOGLIO, Ludovico (Arg) - Boca Jrs. - *** URDINARÁN, Antonio (Uru) - Nacional - ** OMAR, Pedro (Arg) - San Lorenzo - ** MENA PORTA, César (Par) - Olimpia - ** SALDARRIAGA, Alfonso (Per) - U.Buenos Aires - ** BENÍTEZ CASCO, Abdón (Par) - Libertad - ** PENNAFORTE, Orlando (Bra) - Flamengo - ** LEFT BACK: POIRIER, Ulises (Chi) - La Cruz - ** ARISPE, Pedro (Uru) - Rampla Jrs / Nacional - ** MUTIS, Ramón (Arg) - Boca Jrs - ** TEJERA, Domingo (Uru) - Montevideo Wanderers - ** RECANATINI, Humberto (Arg) - Almagro - ** IRIBARREN, Juan Carlos (Arg) - Argentinos Jr / River - ** TOMASSINA, Humberto (Uru) - Liverpool Montevideo - ** VAN KAMENADE, Juan (Arg) - Estudiantes - ** RIGHT HALF: ANDRADE, José Leandro (Uru) - Bellavista / Nacional - **** MEDICI, Segundo (Arg) - Boca Jrs. - ** EVARISTO, Juan (Arg) - Sportivo Palermo - ** RUOTTA, Pascual (Uru) - Peñarol - ** BARTOLUCCI, Pablo (Arg) - S.Buenos Aires / Huracán - ** BRIZUELA, Bartolomé (Par) - Club Nacional - ** PARRAVICINI, Romeo (Uru) - Wanderers Montevideo - ** CENTRE HALF: FLEITAS SOLICH, Manuel (Par) - Club Nacional - ** VIDAL, José (Uru) - Belgrano Mont. - ** VACCARO, Luis (Arg) - Argentinos Jr / Boca Jrs. - ** MONTI, Luis (Arg) - San Lorenzo - ** ZIBECHI, Alfredo (Uru) - Nacional - ** SILVA, Gideón (Uru) - Peñarol - ** AMÍLCAR Barbuy (Bra) - Palestra Italia - ** MARDONES, Luis (Uru) - Wanderers Montevideo - ** LEFT HALF: VANZZINO, José (Uru) - Nacional - ** SOLARI, Emilio (Arg) - S.Barracas / Dock Sud - ** FORTES, Agostinho (Bra) - Fluminense - ** FORTUNATO, Mario (Arg) - Huracán / Boca Jrs. - ** GHIERRA, Alfredo (Uru) - Universal / Nacional - ** NESSI, Gaspar (Par) - Libertad - ** RIGHT WINGER: CARRICABERRY, Alfredo (Arg) - San Lorenzo - *** TARASCONI, Domingo (Arg) - Boca Jrs. - *** URDINARÁN, Santos (Uru) - Nacional - *** PERINETTI, Natalio (Arg) - Racing - ** CANAVERY, Zoilo (Uru/Arg) - Independiente - ** FORMIGA; Xavier Camargo (Bra) - Flamengo - ** ARREMÓN, Juan Pedro (Uru) - Peñarol - ** FILÓ; Anfilógino Guarisi (Bra) - Portuguesa / Paulistano ** INSIDE RIGHT: SCARONE, Héctor (Uru) - Nacional / Barcelona - **** LIBONATTI, Julio (Arg) - Newell's / Torino - *** CHERRO, Roberto (Arg) - Ferro / Sp.Barracas - *** CASTRO, Héctor (Uru) - Lito / Nacional - *** OCHOA, Pedro (Arg) - Racing - ** LALÍN, Alberto (Arg) - Independiente - ** MONTELLANOS, Alberto (Per) - Sport Alianza - ** CENTRE FORWARD: PETRONE, Pedro (Uru) - Charley / Nacional - *** FRIEDENREICH, Arthur (Bra) - Paulistano - *** NILO Murtinho (Bra) - SC.Brasil / Fluminense - *** SOSA, Gabino (Arg) - Central Cordoba - ** PIENDIBENE, José (Uru) - Peñarol - ** HEITOR Domingues (Bra) - Palestra Italia - ** BORJAS, René (Uru) - Wanderers / Nacional - ** RAVASCHINO, Luis (Arg) - Independiente - ** ANSELMO, Juan Peregrino (Uru) - Peñarol - ** INSIDE LEFT: SEOANE, Manuel (Arg) - Independiente - *** CEA, Pedro (Uru) - Lito - *** ARELLANO, David (Chi) - Magallanes / Colo Colo *** NECO; Manoel Nunes (Bra) - Corinthians - ** DE LOS SANTOS, Alejandro (Arg) - Dock Sud / El Porvenir - ** NONÓ; Claudionor Gonçalves (Bra) - Flamengo ** CASANELLO, Norberto (Uru) - Wanderers Mont. / Nacional - ** SACCO, Antonio (Uru) - Peñarol - ** RIVAS, Gerardo (Par) - Libertad - ** LEFT WINGER: ORSI, Raimundo (Arg) - Independiente - *** ROMANO, Angel (Uru) - Nacional - *** ONZARI, Cesáreo (Arg) - Huracán - ** CAMPOLO, Antonio (Uru) - Peñarol - ** SOMMA, Pascual (Uru) - Nacional / Defensor ** FRETES, Luis (Par) - Guaraní - ** LUNA, Segundo (Arg) - Mitre - ** FIGUEROA, Roberto (Uru) / Wanderers / Nacional **.
@msioux75 I just discovered this wonderful thread (and its companions from the post-war era). I'm just wondering what you think of the Argentinian defensive midfielder (sorry, am unsure if he played at wing-half or centre-half) Carlos Volante? I don't know much about him at all, but stumbled across his wiki profile just now and he looks to have had a huge influence on the position in Brazil - to the point where the position itself was named after him! He also appears to have played in Europe for some years.
Hi mate, thank you for your kind words. I read that topic about C.Volante, too. In fact, I had doubts that the term "Volante" is a sort of "legend urban" started somewhere. Anyways, Volante will be considering in a updating list of his italian/brazilian years.
@msioux75 Let me recurrent if you intended to rank them in particular order ? If so, this may be discrepant for Perucca who you ranked at 1st but in EL Grafico rating thread, he was rated only 6th best Argentinian center-half in 1945 and 3rd in 1944 even in his presumable peak period. Perucca was consistently capped for Argentina but in domestic league, he was in much lower state. Based on this Grafico Rating, I'm not convinced to name him in anywhere of the 100 greatest defensive midfielders of all-time even he was named in 1942 Copa America Best XI.
Regarding your message, we would appreciate it if you could publish the list you refer to. If I am not mistaken, at the time I published two lists of the 10 best Argentines by position in 1944 and 1945. In the 1944 list, if I have not looked wrong, Perucca's name does not appear, while in the 1945 list he appears 3rd in his position. Those clippings to which I make reference, I do not remember in which thread I put it, but they are publications of the Brazilian magazine Esporte Ilustrado, referred, in turn, to the opinion of the Argentine magazine Mundo Deportivo. I would love to see those clippings from “El Grafico”. I have no objection to re-sharing the clippings mentioned. Respecto a tu mensaje, agradeceríamos que publicase esa lista a la que hace referencia. Si no me equivoco, en su momento publiqué, dos listas de los 10 mejores argentinos por posición en el año 1944 y 1945. En la de 1944, si no he mirado mal, no aparece el nombre de Perucca, mientras que en la de 1945 aparece el 3º en su posición. Esos recortes a los que hago referencia, no recuerdo en que hilo lo puse, pero son publicaciones de la revista brasileña Esporte Ilustrado, referido, a su vez, a la opinión de la revista argentina Mundo Deportivo. Me encantaría, ver esos recortes de "El Gráfico". Yo no tengo ningún inconveniente en volver a compartir los recortes mencionados.
I don't remember exactly when, but I know that the magazine “Superfútbol”, retrospectively published the best players of the Argentinean championship year by year. Regarding the year 1944, Perucca does not appear neither in the ideal XI, nor among the substitutes of that ideal XI, nor even in the rest of the outstanding players. In 1945 he was placed as a starting “centrojás”. In 1946 he disappeared again from any list of starters or substitutes, as happened in 1943. If necessary, there is no inconvenience in publishing all those cuts. No recuerdo exactamente cuándo, pero sé que la revista "Superfútbol", publicó con efecto retrospectivo los mejores jugadores del campeonato argentino año por año. Respecto al año 1944, Perucca no aparece ni el el XI ideal, ni entre los suplentes de ese XI ideal, ni siquiera en el resto de jugadores destacados. En 1945 fue situado como "centrojás" titular. En 1946 vuelve a desaparecer de cualquier lista de titulares ni suplentes, al igual que ocurrió en 1943. Si fuera necesario, no hay inconveniente en publicar todos esos recortes.
Sorry as Perucca was actually 3rd in 1945 as you mentioned, for 1944 you can see he is at 6th in centro medio list and I haven't even heard of any of five names rated above him.
Mundo Deportivo said that they rated players, each month, from 1st to 10th. So, I have this edition as Ranking from October 1944.
Correct. You are right about 1944. It appears in 6th place, I didn't look properly. Those are the clippings I mentioned the other day from Esporte Ilustrado, reproducing, surely, the one published in “El Mundo Deportivo”. I understood you were referring to a list published in “El Gráfico”. León Strembel played that year in Lanús, being considered the best midfielder by the magazine “Superfútbol”. This same magazine mentioned Giúdice, player of Huracán as the second best midfielder of that year, much better than what “Mundo Deportivo” proposed (7th). Regarding the best midfielder of 1944 for “Mundo Deportivo” (Edmundo Spinosa), he is not mentioned in the retrospective list of “Superfútbol”. Correcto. Tienes razón respecto a 1944. Aparece en 6º lugar, no miré bien. Esos son los recortes que mencioné el otro día de Esporte Ilustrado, reproduciendo, seguramente, la que publicó "El Mundo Deportivo". Entendí que te referías a una lista publicada en "El Gráfico". León Strembel jugó ese año en Lanús, siendo considerado el mejor mediocentro por la revista "Superfútbol". Esta misma revista mencionó a Giúdice, jugador de Huracán como segundo mejor mediocentro de ese año, mucho mejor que lo que "Mundo Deportivo" propuso (7º). Respecto al mejor mediocentro de 1944 para "Mundo Deportivo" (Edmundo Spinosa), no es mencionado en la lista retrospectiva de "Superfútbol".
¿Tienes otras ediciones de este año en las que aparezcan estos rankings? Seguramente, tanto @Dearman como yo imaginábamos que se referían al año completo..