Best players of the noughties? ( 2000 - 2010 )

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by PuckVanHeel, Dec 24, 2016.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The Zonal Marking links do not work any more but can be retrieved through wayback maybe.

    February 2011:
    Schweinsteiger tries to play deep […]. When Bayern had Mark van Bommel playing deep and Schweinsteiger had more license to go forward, those two would combine frequently.
    http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/02/27/bayern-1-3-dortmund-tactics/

    March 2010:
    With Bayern playing two deep central midfielders, it was Fletcher and Scholes in close proximity to Bayern’s midfield two – whilst Carrick was the free player. But Carrick struggled to exert any influence upon the game and his passing was poor, whilst Scholes wasn’t getting tight enough to van Bommel, so Ferguson switched things around late in the first half. Unlike in the game against Arsenal in January, where Ferguson’s switch was crucial to how the game developed, today’s change probably had little impact, for United’s ball retention didn’t get any better.
    http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/30/bayern-munich-2-1-man-utd-tactics/

    Some more (primarily about the position and role of Van Bommel at Bayern/Milan but indirectly also Schweinsteiger, Pirlo etc.):
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-best-players-of-the-season-2007-8.2112072/#post-39043627

    In the 2009-10 Champions League season Van Bommel is, as sidenote, eight overall in Sofascore and the best rated Bayern player. 2010-11 doesn't list him initially, but he's 7.60, eight/ninth overall (Sneijder is 8th overall and listed), and... ahead of Macherano? (made a typo above? that's a mistake by me then). In 2011-12, last CL season, he has Busquets, Mascherano and Khedira ahead of him yes (if you count Mascherano as a DM by that point; Busquets played some games as nominal CB too wasn't it?).

    Either way, I think Schweinsteiger was primarily not a DM in 2012-13 I'd say.
     
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  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Marquez was more a CB, at least in the Champions League KO stages, I think and observe now.

    Sofascore lists him as midfielder in the 2005-06 CL overview but that's maybe based on the full campaign and full season. Without him then you're looking at M. Diarra, Emerson, Frings, Marcos Senna (all in the top 25 overall). All played at least 60% of the total available minutes in the competition.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The video vs Scotland (2nd leg play-offs, Scotland won first leg with 1-0) I mentioned is now available again I see. It wasn't earlier when I looked for it.



    The dribbles (ignore the music) - more than one indeed.







    ""You make mistakes, but you don't care" - Ruud v. Nistelrooy's advice to Danny Welbeck... Yup, that pretty much sums up Welbeck's approach at being a striker." :laugh:
     
  4. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    his first CL goal
    IMG_4172.gif
    Control with the chest
    Feint/dribble with the right
    Finish with the left

    3 touches
    Ruud Van nistelrooy
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Seeing this one now (which I hadn't seen before but it's excellent), and Rio Ferdinand his comments there, made me remember there was a Netflix series about "Legends of the Premier League" and there Rio Ferdinand says too 'Ruud' was in five-a-sides one of the best (and better than CR7 was until 2009... it cannot be ruled out CR7 of course kept on improving).

    He wasn't always loved or appreciated in his home country. Maybe a bit like Van Dijk, they sometimes felt he could do more with his abilities than he is showing. Or Cruijff said things similar to what he said about Ibrahimovic ("excellent technical abilities for an average player, mediocre abilities for a great player"). Whether that's always fair is something you can wonder about. Certainly he was often the only forward of his team at Manchester United (4-5-1) and then also a real famine of chances at Real Madrid. He had CL seasons where he was clearly the top assister, as I said earlier (while his peers/rivals had also free kicks and corner kicks to increase the tally).
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    A few corrections then (from my side).

    2005-06 DM has to be M. Diarra, Emerson, Frings or Senna (all top 25 and close to each other)

    2010-11 DM can be changed to Van Bommel (if you think he played enough) or otherwise Busquets (who definitely played enough).


    Strikers now (something for which it works well I think):

    2003-04: Morientes 7.80 (6th overall), Henrik Larsson 7.62, Shevchenko 7.49, Van Nistelrooij 7.41

    2004-05: Van Nistelrooij 7.95 (1st overall), Berbatov 7.45, Shevchenko 7.27, Ronaldo Nazario 7.09

    This is a really strange one. Van Nistelrooij was again topscorer of CL (his last). He played 7 games but 6 games are rated (including one 30 minutes appearance) and reached the KO stages. He is omitted from their overview page, but 7.95 would put him #1 of all players (Lampard also 7.95). I'd say with playing 7 of 12 possible games he should be in (that's practically 60%).

    2005-06: Eto'o 7.45 (10th overall), Shevchenko 7.30, Trezeguet 7.28.

    An overflow of defenders in the top 50 here. I see Van Bronckhorst is in effect the #1 rated left-back. This is indeed also the period where he is doing well in ESM votes for that position (#2 in 2004-05, ofc the club you play for helps). See here for 2004-05 (2nd left-back, one vote behind Cole).

    2006-07: Van Nistelrooij 7.33 (5th overall), Drogba 7.24, David Villa 7.20

    Another strange one. Van Nistelrooij rated 7 of 12 games (scored in both KO games he went out, one of them penalty though). Inzaghi, Crouch and Saha did well in the topscorer chart but are not there around I think.

    2007-08: Drogba 7.44 (13th overall), Kuijt 7.32, Torres 7.24, Deivid 7.18

    Not sure about Kuijt... seems like his position varied quite a bit. But in the final of the season before he played as forward/striker I'd say (and scored a goal, not a penalty), but maybe not the 2006-07 semi-finals if I look at the data now. They list him here as midfielder though, just as a season later and before. There are no other strikers in the top 50.

    2008-09: Benzema 7.65 (5th overall)

    Seems to me Benzema is the only listed striker in the top 50. Unless you'd count Rooney and Kuijt as such (both top 25).

    2009-10: Ibrahimovic 7.35 (10th overall), Milito 7.31.

    This are the only two strikers in the top 50 I think. Maybe Didier Zokora can be added.


    Hopefully people find this informative, too.
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Van Nistelrooij is rated 7.57 over 7 games in 2007-08, but not listed in the overview (and 88 minutes per game they say). Might be included (again). That would put him 8th overall. Don't know why he is not in the frontpage overview.

    Cristiano Ronaldo for 2007-08 is 25th overall (7.32). Had expected that higher, if you know how he stacks up in the next seasons for Madrid.
     
  8. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #708 carlito86, Jul 21, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2024

    Sebastian Veron the assister
    Van nistelrooy controls it with his left knee and scores with his left foot(a nonchalant dink over the GK)
    IMG_4174.gif
    Two touches from the scorer

    it’s very easy to imagine some elite strikers today(no names needed) miss controlling the initial pass or taking an extra touch fluffing the goal scoring opportunity altogether.

    That was a really great pass from Veron but not a big chance IMO
    A lot of work was still required to covert it into a goal.
    RVN makes it look easy but it wasn’t
     
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  9. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024




    i have a question for you Carlito 86 if you take control " charge " of a Professional Football Team like Borussia Dortmund, Feyenoord, New Castle and Brighton Hove Albion at Football Manager

    aiming to win the UEFA Champions League in 5 years at least for the board of the team



    What would be your top 11 main priorities to win the UEFA Champions League ????



    depending on your answer, now we can know if you really understand football or not


    remembering

    You can choose your top 11 main priorities to win the championships mainly Uefa Champions League ????
     
  10. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    i have a question for you my brazilian brother Isaías Silva Serafim if you take control " charge " of a Professional Football Team like Borussia Dortmund, Feyenoord, New Castle and Brighton Hove Albion at Football Manager

    aiming to win the UEFA Champions League in 5 years at least for the board of the team



    What would be your top 11 main priorities to win the UEFA Champions League ????



    depending on your answer, now we can know if you really understand football or not


    remembering

    You can choose your top 11 main priorities to win the championships mainly Uefa Champions League ????
     
  11. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    @PuckVanHeel may be suited to providing more(better?)examples

    But this is one of those instances of RVN providing assists from deep in his own half




    RVN was not always camping in the penalty box for 90 mins(the common perception)

    Gerrard pique the pre assister
    Ruud Van nistelrooy the assister
    Cristiano the goalscorer
    These 3 only ever combined together for one goal(this)
     
  12. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    i have a question for you my brother if you take control " charge " of a Professional Football Team like Borussia Dortmund, Feyenoord, New Castle and Brighton Hove Albion at Football Manager

    aiming to win the UEFA Champions League in 5 years at least for the board of the team



    What would be your top 11 main priorities to win the UEFA Champions League ????



    depending on your answer, now we can know if you really understand football or not


    remembering

    You can choose your top 11 main priorities to win the championships mainly Uefa Champions League ????
     
  13. Letmepost

    Letmepost Member

    Arsenal
    South Korea
    Apr 11, 2023
    That is a question that goes beyond my topics of interest and knowledge, but I'll give a cop-out answer nonetheless.

    In my opinion, your statement reveals a lot more about whether I understand the competitive implications of a tournament format versus a league format. A league format rewards a team’s ability to take breakdown a weaker team, due to how it makes more sense for the team with less resources to aim for a higher percentage draw than an unlikely win.

    Though I may be way out of my depth drawing this comparison, I personally would liken it to how it works in professional chess, where your ability to earn a living depends on your ability to breakdown lesser players aiming for a draw, to climb up to the necessary levels to start earning some money, but when it comes to deciding the very best, the most competent bully of lesser players, may find himself out of his depth versus competent opponents with wider array of skillsets, but aren’t quite as competent at demolishing lesser opponents.

    So that influences the selection more than the actual general level of the players. I may find myself gravitating towards shot-stopping keepers such as Thibaut Courtois, over keepers who distribute excellently with their feet, or defenders who excel at preventing goals with a low-block like John Terry, or midfielders who solo-dominate the central zone like Zinedine Zidane. For attackers the same logic applies also. I value Mo Salah higher than Sadio Mane as a player, but I would select Sadio Mane within the confines of the UEFA Champions League.

    I think I might actually be able to give more concrete answers if you were able to give the starting eleven of my main rivals, so that I could try to counter the playstyle and best cater towards a fixed goal, rather than naming those who rank high in my personal overall assessment.
     
  14. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    i like your answer yes ... for sure ! at least is interesting on my view !
     
  15. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    1#
    Priority one when I take control " charge " of a professional team with the board and media putting pressure to win championships always and as soon as possible .. otherwise, you will be fired out of the team .



    Priority one bring it back one Goalkeeper like : Dibu Martinez (ARG),
    Sergio Goycochea(arg), Zetti(bra) and Cassio(Bra)
    with lower price to buy and don't affect the general Budget from the Squad there
    highly decisive goalkeepers
    goalkeepers with stronger personality, command of the area, composure, great reflexes and leadership
    goalkeepers of big matches
    great in penalty taking decisions
    with winning mentality
    make decisions with accuracy


    por example :

    Sergio Goycochea
    was prevented from shining against Germany in 1990 World Cup
    in the decision by penalties
    for Germany's irregular goal from Andreas Brehme's penalty before
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #716 PuckVanHeel, Jul 21, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2024
    In the past OPTA credited him with 3 assists in the Premier League but I now see they have it at 14 assists. That is still lower than what he has in his Champions League career (in way fewer games of course). In that 2007-08 season they credit him with 3 assists and 4 goals.

    Here is an example at 0:39 that I know and here at 6:16 a fine cross and so on.

    I'll set 2007-08 striker to Van Nistelrooij and 2010-11 DM to Busquets. 2005-06 is Frings. I think Emerson, Diarra were more like a CM; maybe a bit too dynamic for this and also in role not quite like Davids I guess.

    Emerson his average position in 2005-06, like vs Arsenal, was often ahead of Vieira (who played against his former club). In the other leg it was well ahead of his midfield partner (in a 4-4-2) Giannichedda. In the second leg against Werder Bremen Vieira and Emerson were positioned equal, in a 4-4-2 again.
     
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  17. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024





    My second priority is :




    to bring 3 players at least
    highly experts and accuracy in Attacking Set Pieces and Defending Set Pieces at the same time

    one player to attack in the near post
    one player to attack in the six yards or penalty area line
    one player to attack in the far post

    always aiming to promote one-on-one aerial situations " 1 vs 1 in the air ! "



    and


    one player to def in the near post
    one player to def in the six yards or penalty area line
    one player to def in the far post



    examples : Briegel, Ruud Gullit, Patrick Vieira , Marcel Desailly, C. Ronaldo

    Marius Tresor, Edson Arantes Pelé, Mario Jardel, Daniel Passarella, Carlos Mozer, Rondinelli

    etc .. etc ..etc ...
     
  18. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    Priority 3 #



    bring at least two dead ball specialists... in free kicks and corners




    examples : Marcelinho Carioca, Nelinho, Eusebio , Zico .... De Bruyne , Ricardinho, JOhan Cruyff ... Alex ... Puskas ...Neto .... Junior ... Platini ... Maradona .. etc..


    of course looking the Budget of the team ..in question .... if is possible to contract those players really at the season


    at least :
    with similar characteristics those players mentioned .
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #719 PuckVanHeel, Jul 21, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2024
    Corrected list:

    Highest rated goalkeeper:

    2003-04: Ovchinnokov
    2004-05: Dida
    2005-06: Dida
    2006-07: Dida
    2007-08: Nikopolidis (VdS 3rd)
    2008-09: Van der Sar
    2009-10: Van der Sar
    2010-11: Van der Sar

    Highest rated CB:

    2003-04: Maldini
    2004-05: Ricardo Carvalho
    2005-06: Ricardo Carvalho
    2006-07: Plestan (Lille), Pepe (Porto)
    2007-08: Vidic
    2008-09: Vidic
    2009-10: Lucio
    2010-11: Vidic

    DM:

    2003-04: Gattuso
    2004-05: Makelele
    2005-06: Frings
    2006-07: Gattuso
    2007-08: Mascherano
    2008-09: Cambiasso
    2009-10: Van Bommel
    2010-11: Busquets

    AM:

    2003-04: Deco
    2004-05: Lampard
    2005-06: Lampard
    2006-07: Gerrard
    2007-08: Gerrard
    2008-09: Lampard
    2009-10: Sneijder
    2010-11: Sneijder
    2011-12: Ozil (Sneijder is 2nd)

    Strikers:

    2003-04: Morientes
    2004-05: Van Nistelrooij
    2005-06: Eto'o
    2006-07: Van Nistelrooij
    2007-08: Van Nistelrooij
    2008-09: Benzema
    2009-10: Ibrahimovic

    -----------------------------------

    I think this is honest and fair. Now the left-back.

    2003-04: Evra
    2004-05: Traore
    2005-06: Van Bronckhorst (Kaladze?)
    2006-07: Riise (ahead of someone like Lahm, yes)
    2007-08: Abidal
    2008-09: Clichy
    2009-10: Tremoulinas (Alvaro Pereira, Pjanic)
    2010-11: Marcelo (Evra)
     
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  20. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
    Priority 4 #



    bring at least two TopGoalScorers of Elite



    examples : Gerd Muller .... Serginho Chulapa .... Marco Van Basten ...

    Ferenc Puskas ... Pelé .... Romario ... Eusebio ...Sandor Kocsis ...Vavá ...Ademir de Menezes ..

    Luis Fabiano ...Dada Maravilha ...Tulio Maravilha ...Antonio Careca ... Jurgen Klinsmann... Giovanni Elber ....Erling Haaland ...Roy Makaay ...



    but depend the Budget to bring those players :
     
  21. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    Regarding SofaScore ratings and midfielders, I think its little surprise, without taking away from their achievements, that Xavi and Kroos have such high ratings specifically under Guardiola in a system that guarantees them 100+ touches a game, many of them in the opposition half, and providing them with way more opportunities for "key passes" and other heavily weighted metrics. And Pep's Barca and Bayern teams consistently dominated teams that were worse than them (almost anyone) and against similar level teams, they at least still dominated possession if not the match, which the algorithm still rates. Its easy to forget just how much football, and especially midfield play, changed even from mid/late 2000s to the early 2010s. Most top teams at club and international level started trying to replicate the Barcelona style, at least in some ways. The top teams of the 2000s, the Galacticos, Milan, Juve, Chelsea, United, etc... while maybe not necessarily worse than Pep's Barca/Bayern, were definitely not dominating teams matchday after matchday with 70% and 800 passes. Top teams that relied on solidity and patience but took their moments (or paced themselves as @PuckVanHeel says), like the Italian teams or Mourinho teams, and the players in those teams, maybe don't receive the statistical bump that top teams post-Pep that play possession style football do.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Kroos 2011-12 was before Pep but yes, this and 2013-14 are markedly higher as any of his prime seasons at Real Madrid.

    Similarly, Xavi in 2004-05 and 2007-08 (before Pep) is already very high, but maybe you can say it has become overlooked that the 'Rijkaard Barcelona' was also seen as the most proactive and sophisticated top team in Europe. With also Mourinho and Benitez of course around. Different and more physical as the Guardiola teams of course (yet less keen on pressing all the time) but nonetheless the most pro-active among the European top teams. That maybe also helps Xavi his ratings.

    As good as those Barcelona Pep teams were, they also needed lucky breaks in 2009 and 2011 (Persie red card, Ovrebo and Chelsea, Alves and Pepe). Offensively and defensively. Not too dissimilar as some of those Real Madrid wins (but not all), but not like say the Liverpool win of 2019.

    It remains a shame Bayern was so weakened in 2015... so sometimes 'the bald fraud' was unlucky as well.
     
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  23. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Frank Rijkaard's team is quite forgotten unfortunately:
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord


    Here the full thing at 04:50


    Seems like not only Stam but Rio Ferdinand also feels he has been better than him.

    Anyway, as I said, it must be the tackling too.

    Stam 2004-05 had over 5 succesful tackles per match. His compatriot had last season a little over 1 per match, in some before even half of that.

    But that 2022 Inter game in the knockout stages is a famous one for how he nullified attacks without making a tackle. Just cancelling the danger without doing an interception, tackle or something like that.

    https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/31...il-van-dijk-is-he-back-to-his-imperious-best/
    https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/31...ood-bets-to-reach-the-champions-league-final/
     
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  25. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    .....






    i disagree from you ...dear mate


    Frank Rijkaard's Barcelona 2003/08

    didn't won UEFA Cup 2003/04
    didn't won Copa del Rey de la Spain ... even didn't reach one Final this competition in 5 years ... in a row ..
    didn't won ... UEFA super-cup final against Sevilla in 2006
    didn't won ....Fifa Club World Cup Final against Inter Brazil in 2006
    won one Uefa Champions League 2005/06 only is very very poor for sure


    even didn't reach another Final UEFa Champions League for less it ...in 4 years in a row


    as Michel Platini's Juventus did
    as Kaká's Ac Milan did
    as Schevchenko's Ac Milan did
    as Robben's Bayern Munich did


    only two La Ligas in 5 years in a row !
     

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