They don't show that for individual seasons carlito. You calculated those seasonal averages yourself... they show the individual games and that is what I am doing here. Point taken that Ronaldinho declined after 2006 (already march 2006) and then in particular after 2007. Some sporadic glimpses of former excellence while at Milan, amidst many lows.
And? As in and your point is? I prefer using whole seasons/campaigns as a reference point for a players peak level than using individual games cherry picked from various seasons that’s how I see it and I’m sure many others will also see it the exact same way.
That your calculation cannot be trusted. Have you weighed for minutes played for instance? That a 30 minutes games does not have the same weight as a 120 minutes games? Choices, choices... And oh, I am not "cherry picking" at all. I set the bar at 7.5 and then list them. No this is not perfect but nonetheless an indicator of the peaks a player was capable of against national champions (or top five leagues elite teams).
Its easy to call something a lie Why don’t you disprove even one of the seasonal averages I have provided? and yes cherry picking is the definition of what you are doing Picking games from 5 years apart even if you set the bar supposedly high(and 7.5 definitely is not high) all these mitigating factors you provide for Dutch players(bergkamp,van bommel,van dijk etc) but it took a Ronaldinho hater like me to contextualise his ratings by talking about his drop off in form something you completely ignored even though you are definitely aware of it. I’m not here for a fight with a Dutch supremacist so I’ve said my piece and that will be all.
A ********ing joke that R9 is a top 5 player of the noughties a ********ing joke he is not even better than Van nistelrooy or Shevchenko or Raul in the 2000s R9 was probably at best the joint third best Brazilian performer of the 2000s Ronaldinho Kaka R9/roberto Carlos rivaldo 2000/01 and 2001/02 is also probably on par with R9s first two Real Madrid seasons aswell R9 after 2003 is not a better player than Hulk.
I don't say you lie (in this instance), just that your averages can be wrong and there are choices to make. Giving the same weight to a 30 minutes game as a 120 minutes game is a choice. I am the first to say players ratings have to be seen in relation to their own team and in the same tournament. 1966 is not like 2002. For choosing the 7.5 barrier: the starting rating for any player is 6.5. It becomes 'green' at 7.0. An 8.0 is 'very good'. 9.0 and above is outstanding. I think 7.5 is fair and then to list them all is not cherry-picking. Below 6.5 means they end up below their starting rating (e.g. Kahn a number of times past his peak, from 2004 onward; it is maybe insightful that the indexes show this as well). It might be less good at rewarding teams and players that close shop, like Del Piero at Juventus. You can say that. Yet this exercise what I am doing is a good exercise for the peak performance levels players were capable of. From before the early-00s when these indexes became commonplace. Raul at 9.4 and Robben at 9.6 against Zenit in 2008 (then the recent UEFA Cup winner and Supercup winner against Alex Ferguson) are both almost a full two points higher as any other player on the pitch. Is that insightful? I think it is. It is for me. And I share it then with others. Systematic overview for Raul here. My goodness. That backstory for Ronaldinho is well-known. It is basic knowledge, like Ronaldo at the 1998 World Cup final. Gets repeated again and again (not that this is wrong...). Everyone knows Ronaldinho fell of after 2007 (or 2006). I am not a supremacist. I've said too that Belgians (compared to northern neighbors) and many others are not taken seriously. I am maybe a supremacist in comparison to Curacao yes, not Sweden or Switzerland. Fine. The real supremacists are the usual suspects who treat us as afterthoughts. You insulting me again is a fine example for why arguing about your averages (and investing time in that) has no rewarding value. I'll continue where I left and start with completing the Champions Magazine list of 2011... (as far as the players have games in, so no Redondo, Matthaus or Rijkaard here). Some more added like Rivaldo, Sneijder. Then I will look further.
I've tallied the goals and minutes required per goal, during Ronaldo's stay at Real Madrid, to see how he performed domestically compared to his contemporary peers. Players Ranked By Their La Liga Goal Count (time frame set to 2002/2003 ~ 2006/2007): 1. Samuel Eto'o: 93 goals (140 minutes per goal) 2. Ronaldo: 82 goals (121 minutes per goal) 3. Fernando Torres: 75 goals (200 minutes per goal) 4. David Villa: 72 goals (167 minutes per goal) 5. Ronaldinho: 62 goals (178 minutes per goal)
For me Ronaldinho Gaucho is the most overrated player the history of the Football Examples this : Ronaldinho Gaucho ... 806 matches .....only 302 goals always kicked the penalties, freekicks and corner-kicks to the him team ... only .... 0. 37 % average of goals ... . 806 matches ... only 194 direct assists and indirect assists only ... 0, 24 % average of assists ( direct and indirect assists ) . 806 matches ... 232 direct assists ... indirect assists ... penalties suffered and pre-assists only 0, 28 % average of participations to the teams . 27 finals disputed for him in the him career... only 0. 48 % average of participations to the teams in the finals . Diego Armando Maradona 1986 Diego Armando Maradona 1986 Matches: 7 dribbles completed : 55 Assists : 5 Goals : 5 pre-assists : 2 Tackles : 11 interceptions: 8 duels won : 13 big chances created : 27 fouls received : 53 touches on the ball : 567 Shots Attempts : 30 Shots on Target : 13 headers won : 2 Ronaldinho Gaucho 2002 and 2006 Matches: 10 dribbles completed : 26 Assists : 4 Goals : 2 pre-assists : 1 Tackles : 0 interceptions: 0 duels won : 0 big chances created : 22 fouls received : 16 touches on the ball : 339 Shots Attempts : 15 Shots on Target : 6 headers won : 2 Red Card : 1 against England quarter finals in 2002 Diego Armando Maradona career 680 matches .... 345 goals .... 0, 50 % average of goals 680 matches ...... 239 assists ( direct and indirect assists too !) 0, 35 % average of assists Zico career 771 matches .... 517 goals .... 0, 67 % average of goals 771 matches ..... 270 assists ( direct and indirect assists too !) 0, 35 % average of assists Michel Platini career 661 matches ...... 358 goals ..... 0, 54 % average of goals ..... 661 matches ....... 232 assists ( direct and indirect assists too !) 0, 35 % average of assists Teófilo Cubillas Cubillas career 615 matches ....... 342 goals .... 0, 55 % average of goals .... 615 matches ..... honestly i don't know about the assists not reported ... until here .. Ronaldinho Gaucho 806 matches ..... 302 goals ..... 0, 37 % average of goals ... 806 matches ..... 194 assists ( direct and indirect assists too !) 0, 24 % average of assists Ronaldo Nazario de Lima 624 matches ................ 420 goals ....... 0, 67 % 624 matches ........... 130 or 141 assists ( direct and indirect assists too !) 0, 20 % or 0, 22 % average of assists but between Ronaldo Nazario vs Ronaldinho Gaucho Ronaldo nazario was much better than Ronaldinho Gaucho Ronaldo Nazario 1, 05 % in finals vs ... Ronaldinho Gaucho only 0, 48 % in finals ... honestly til Rijkaard was more clinical than Ronaldinho in finals .
....... honestly ... sometimes i think so ...that Jay Jay Okocha .. Dennis Bergkamp ... Michael Laudrup and Roberto Baggio were better than Ronaldinho Gaucho hahahaha !!!
Wow, great find, mate. So Prime R10 averaged 2.99 dibbles p90 and Robinho 3.15 p90. This is closer to Mbappé and Vini Jr (and ManUtd Ronaldo) than to Messi/Hazard
It was only a waiting game until certain myths were busted forever. This official Opta infographic is the final nail in the coffin so to speak. I will also say those dribbling/big chance created graphs on X made by anonymous fanboys of zidane,Ronaldino etc are usually if not always complete trash and should never be referenced in any serious discussion/debate.
Ronaldinho 05/06: 45 matches, 26 goals, 24 assists, 50 G+A, 1.1 per game 1.1 G+A per game is great. 1.1 G+A added to the UCL and La Liga title and Ballon d'Or is fantastic. Well, it depends on who the comparison is made with, if you compare Ronaldinho to Pelé, Messi, it's a lot lower. But if compared to other Ballons d'or it is exceptional. And Ronaldinho was a player who impacted the game beyond goals and assists, with dribbles and passes, which broke the opponent's tactics, the latter are not always well rated.
Important I think to differentiate between the dribbler with end product and the dribbler with no end product Robinho with 8 goals+6 assists in La liga 2005/06 in 2707 minutes Ronaldinho with 17 goals+18 assists in La liga 2005/06 in 2527 minutes One thing for sure is Ronaldinho was never ever a complete attacker I mean here dribbling,creating and scoring simultaneously at an elite level. When the goals(particularly goals against big teams) went up the all round play went down(was sacrificed) Ronaldinho for example averaged around 6 dribbles per 90 in the 2004/05 CL but only scored twice in the 2005/06 CL he scores 7(with a considerable amount of assists ) and the dribbling rate drops to around 3 dribbles per 90(I can’t remember exact figures but it’s around this for sure) they can easily be found on sofascore anyways
This is pretty consistent with his data provided by SofaScore on UCL 05/06 in which he completed 36 dribbles in 1079 minutes (3.00 p90)
Cristiano Ronaldo 10.0 vs AS Roma (10/04/07) Shevchenko 10.0 vs Fenerbahce (23/11/05) Van Nistelrooij 10.0 vs Sparta Praha (03/11/04) Lampard 9.9 vs Bayern Munich (06/04/05) Eto'o 9.7 vs Panathinaikos (02/11/05) Ronaldinho 9.7 vs Udinese (27/09/05) Robben 9.6 vs Zenit (10/12/08) Morientes 9.6 vs Olympiacos (12/09/06) Raul 9.4 vs Zenit (10/12/08) Figo 9.3 vs Roma (28/09/04) Gerrard 9.3 vs Bordeaux (31/10/06) Seedorf 9.3 vs Shaktar Donetsk (24/10/07) Messi 9.3 vs Bayern Munich (08/04/09) Xavi - 9.1 vs Sporting (16/09/08) Henry 9.0 vs Juventus (28/03/06) Zidane 9.0 vs Monaco (24/03/04) Pirlo 8.9 vs Benfica (18/09/07) Kaka 8.8 vs Deportivo la Coruna (23/03/04) Del Piero 8.6 vs Real Madrid (05/11/08) Iniesta 8.6 vs Lyon (27/11/07) Inzaghi 8.5 vs Bayern Munich (08/03/06) Kahn 8.5 vs Spartak (12/09/06) Ronaldo Nazario 8.5 vs Dynamo Kyiv (06/12/06) Cocu 8.4 vs Milan (04/05/05) Deco 8.4 vs Manchester United (25/02/04) Makelele 8.4 vs Liverpool (03/05/05) Giggs 8.4 vs Wolfsburg (30/09/09) Roberto Carlos 8.4 vs Bayern Munich (24/02/04) Scholes 8.4 vs CSKA (03/11/09) Stam 8.4 vs Inter (06/04/05) Van Bommel 8.3 vs Sporting (10/03/09) Maldini 8.2 vs PSV (26/04/05) Nesta 8.0 vs Celtic (07/12/04) Davids 7.9 vs Valencia (01/11/04) Roy Keane 7.9 vs Rangers (04/11/03) Henrik Larsson 7.8 vs Anderlecht (05/11/03) Bergkamp 7.4 vs Celta (10/03/04) ------------------------------------- Another reason to pick 7.5 as barrier: you can be MOTM with this in high-profile games. Like Cruijff with 7.7 in the 1974 World Cup final. Or how VdS was with 7.6 in the 2011 final and 7.4 in 2009 the best rated of his team (by a 0.1, 0.3 margin). I think a really notable game becomes unusual below that threshold. You can then ask whether anyone on the field played enormously well. As said, I think you might think it doesn't work well for teams closing shop (Del Piero, Juventus) but it is useful to see the peaks players were capable of. Zanetti 8.0 vs Bremen (24/11/04) Others at 7.5 or above: 7.7 vs Villarreal (29/03/06), 7.6 vs Valencia (02/11/04), 7.6 vs PSV (02/10/07), 7.6 vs CSKA (07/11/07), 7.6 vs Man United (24/02/09), 7.6 vs Rubin (09/12/09), 7.5 vs Bremen (14/09/04), 7.5 vs Anorthosis (22/10/08) Casillas 8.8 vs Rosenborg (01/11/05) Others at 7.5 or above: 8.7 vs Lyon (13/09/06), 8.7 vs Marseille (30/09/09), 8.5 vs Dynamo Kiyv (19/10/04), 8.2 vs Juventus (22/02/05), 8.1 vs Bayern (10/03/04), 8.0 vs Bayern (24/02/04), 8.0 vs Lazio (11/12/07), 7.9 vs Olympiacos (24/10/07), 7.8 vs Partizan (04/11/03), 7.7 vs Arsenal (21/02/06), 7.5 vs Bayern (07/03/07) Beckham 9.3 vs Rosenborg (19/10/05) Others at 7.5 or above: 9.0 vs Olympiacos (28/09/05), 7.9 vs Arsenal (21/02/06), 7.9 vs Bayern (20/02/07), 7.8 vs Juventus (22/02/05), 7.6 vs Roma (08/12/04), 7.6 vs Dynamo Kyiv (06/12/06) Van der Sar 9.1 vs Sporting (19/09/07) - this is with a yellow card! Others at 7.5 or above: 8.3 vs Roma (09/04/08), 8.2 vs Roma (23/04/08), 8.2 vs Barcelona (23/04/08), 7.9 vs Roma (04/04/07), 7.9 vs Porto (07/04/09), 7.8 vs Benfica (26/09/06), 7.8 vs Lille (07/03/07), 7.7 vs Roma (10/04/07), 7.6 vs Barcelona (29/04/08), 7.5 vs Kobenhavn (17/10/06), 7.5 vs Inter (11/03/09) Just outside this frame, until halfway 2011, with 7.5 or higher: 8.5 vs Bayern (30/03/10), 8.1 vs Chelsea (06/04/11), 7.9 vs Bursaspor (02/11/10), 7.9 vs Schalke (26/04/11), 7.6 vs Barcelona (28/05/11) Puyol 8.2 vs Liverpool (06/03/07) Others at 7.5 or above: 8.1 vs Udinese (07/12/05), 8.0 vs Schalke (09/04/08), 8.0 vs Man United (27/05/09), 7.9 vs Bremen (14/09/05), 7.9 vs Rubin (04/11/09), 7.8 vs Panathinaikos (02/11/05), 7.8 vs Rangers (23/10/07), 7.8 vs Dynamo Kyiv (29/09/09), 7.7 vs Panathinaikos (18/10/05), 7.7 vs Levski (12/09/06), 7.7 vs Stuttgart (02/10/07), 7.6 vs Celtic (14/09/04), 7.6 vs Basel (22/10/08), 7.5 vs Lyon (27/11/07)
Vini Jr on the actual season is very comparable to R10 in therms of combination of end product with dribbling output R10 2005-06 G+A p90 (league + UCL): 1,05. Dribbles: 2,99 p90 Vini Jr 2023-24 G+A p90 (league + UCL): 0,97. Dribbles: 3,32 p90
Just out of curiosity Why you put cristiano first ahead of Shevchenko/RVN all with 10/10 performances? is it because his was in a KO match and there’s wasn’t? Or has this something to do with the Elo rankings of the teams? or is it just random/unintentional?
I was talking about Robinho tbh(the dribbler with limited to no end product) Vinicius is a different class I think Ronaldinho 05/06 has one significant over Vinicius 23/24 and that is playmaking Ronaldinho was creating ALOT in the 2005/06 CL ATG levels for sure(in playmaking) I don’t feel Vinicius was scoring significantly more nor dribbling significantly more that we can say his attacking threat equalled let alone outweighed Ronaldinhos playmaking advantage I say this already knowing full well that Vinicius is a very good passer/creator in his own right
Just because of alphabet. Not because one single game peak is better than the other. One can think the ones further back in time are more impressive (for a few reasons; for example fouls per game is higher around 2003 as around 2007). One can think playing for more defensive teams is more impressive (like RvN, Shevchenko with fewer forwards and not pressing the game in the same way as United vs Roma in their 7-1). It's also possible to rate KO performances higher, but it is just by alphabet really...
Their ratings on SofaScore for UCL: R10: 7,72 Vini Jr: 7,66 dbs calcio ratings for LaLiga: R10: 7,03 Vini Jr: 6,96 R10 seems to be slightly better overall but not that much
Many think RVN only scored one solo/individual goal in a Manchester shirt(vs Fulham) the one where he rounded the goalkeeper vs Basel is underrated his second CL goal for Manchester United vs Deportivo is one of the best ever The one touch play by Veron,RVN and Beckham preceding the finish was otherworldly Deportivo actually finished above Real Madrid and Barcelona in La liga 01/02
well these numbers of Ronaldinho Gaucho ( direct assists and indirect assists).. has penalties suffered together with assists .... at TransferMarkt Ruud Gullit ... 83/84 45 matches , 25 goals , 27 assists .... 22 assists Eredivisie record at that time + 5 assists ... KNVB Beker Cup , 52 G+A, 1.15, 55 % per game... But putting penalties suffered as assists aswell is still much more than 52 participations of Ruud Gullit ... Ruud Gullit Ballon D'or 1987 ... Gullit played ... libero ...full back .... right winger playmaker ... central defender ..... in 1983/84