Well, that is not too different from what I said. Neymar is a better fit for bigger teams. Hazard works better for smaller club and national sides (I think). Two nuancing comments though: 1) Clubs do care about not losing the ball wastefully, and wasting energy. The most obvious example is the decline of long distance shooting. 2) You can make a case Ronaldo, Messi and the rest had their highest collective success when they muted some of their individualistic traits. Ronaldo when he became a striker and stopped shooting from impossible angles and long distances all the time, running in front of others feet, and Messi maybe too (see that link). In his highest scoring seasons he gave away possession a lot and those weren't necessarily the most succesful (with in mind ofc the CL also has the factor luck involved). Interestingly, last World Cup Messi and Neymar were the two players with the highest losses of possession (per match). I agree with you that those clubs can afford these players, but there is a case to be made even those clubs played better and had more sustained success (unbeaten streaks, whatever) when they were more economical in their actions. That's an interesting link. How did you find that? On google other web pages of this author pop up but not this one.
Its simply not true no matter how many times it is said From 2007-2014 he won 2 CLs+4 league titles+3 domestic cups From 2015-2020 3 CLs 2 leagues 1Euro I dont think one is necessarily better than the other Especially when you throw in the fact that pre 2014 he came within a handspan of winning a European championship in 2004(made team of the tournament)and another CL in 2009(where he was legitimately great-particularly in the KO rounds) That means "shoot on sight CR" was only 2 games away from winning 1 Euro 3 champions leagues 4 league titles(in the best leagues of his era) 3 domestic cups And he was the main contributer in almost all those title runs
Been away for a while so wildy out of touch with the forum so my thoughts re the leagues I see most off, apologies if I am repeating what others have already stated: Serie A: Immobile and Ronaldo have been on fire and clearly the stand out two players for me, title race and Capocannoniere race should be interesting. Bundesliga: Lewandowski has kept up his early season form and is doing it both in the league and UCL so is the clear stand out for me with a pretty crazy goal record recently, I would add Werner and Sancho as next but further down in who have had impressive seasons so far. La Liga: Messi as always is up front but not by miles like previous seasons, the other for me is Benzema in probably his beast season in a Madrid shirt. Ligue 1: Mbappe continues to be a monster in my view, but this is in a ridiculously dominant PSG team, Ben Yedder has also been impressive, I still don't buy into the Neymar myth, fully expect him to go missing again in big UCL games or go partying. Premier League: The dullest season on record, Liverpool running away with it and no real stand out player in the league. Henderson is the PFA PoY favourite but I feel that is more as he is the captain of the runaway leaders whilst no clear league stand out player. Mane had looked great earlier in the season but has had a few injuries and De Bruyne had looked on fire for a handful of games with hatfuls of assists so maybe my top two. Traore has also been a revelation but more shock/surprise of the season as opposed to PoY. I almost feel then perhaps 5-10 players around even in terms of performance so interesting to see rest of season. Other note, UCL will have a big big outcome on awards along with Euro2020, perhaps even more so this year given perhaps less stand out players in many of the leagues. P.S. Hope everyone is keeping well !
@PuckVanHeel Your whole argument is based around Neymar hypothetically not being able to perform in Lille as well as Hazard. But you have no indication of that whatsoever. It is entirely based around your gut feeling. I for example, completely disagree. I think Neymar would have even better stats playing for Lille than PSG. In Lille, he wouldn't have Mbappe nor Cavani nor Icardi scoring goals (no stats sharing) and he would have to take on an additional responsibility closer to goal, which would result in more goals and assists overal. Similar to Neymar statistic in Barcelona in absence of Messi. I think you are (or carlito) the one who originally shared that data with me. My free estimation is that, if he were to take penalties for Lille, current version of Neymar (staying healthy) would have more than 1.00 goals per game and around 0.50 assists per game. Obviously topping and dominating dribbling and key passes charts and leading his team to 2nd place, 80ish points. I mean, even Pepe last season managed to somewhat emulate Hazard's numbers from 2012: In 38 games, 22 goals (9 pens), 11 assists. I am not sure about the exact numbers Hazard managed to do, but that is the case in point. This season Pepe plays in better attack and is producing less. He stopped being team's focus and his output suffered. I can give you many examples like that, another one that comes to mind is Griezmann, who is obviously having a secondary role in Barcelona and "surprisingly", his numbers haven't been this bad since his 2012/13 season. Side note: Being a primarily playmaker doesn't much enhance one's stats. Sure, PSG is built around Neymar, but around his creative abilities, not around his impact around the penalty box, like Lille was in the case of Pepe, or even Hazard. There are two arguments i see: 1. Neymar can't stay healthy for substantial amount of time. 2. Neymar is losing too much possesion ot the point it is counter productive. With first, i agree. it's shame that is the case. But when we talk about on-pitch Neymar vs on-pitch Hazard, this argument becomes irrelevant. Hazard is not a better player because of that. 2nd point is common one and addressed multiple times and i will do so once again, but from different perspective now: Hazard last season (one of his best), averaged 59.1 touches per game. while having 33.6 successful passes per game and losing possesion 13.7 times per game. Neymar this season (random season), averages 95.0 touches per game, 46.6 successful passes per game and losing possesion 27.4 times per game. Ironically, Neymar is losing possession exactly 2 times more than Hazard did, but notice how much more active Neymar is as a player. Big chunk of that difference can be explained by that fact alone. If Hazard were to be as ball dominant and active player as Neymar, he would be averaging number of dispossesions, close to Neymar. Now, if we were to find statistic that tells us the average length of their pass attempts, i am pretty sure we would come to another conclusion and that is that Neymar, when in possesion, is playing way riskier, which in turn would explain another chunk of that difference. Hazard, as heatmaps would suggest, is a classical, modern left inside forward, neymar, on the other hand, doesn't play the same position and the role. He is way more centrally oriented and is fulfilling the role of a #10 playmaker. In that context, it makes sense that Neymar is going to be a lot more in contact with the ball and ultimately lose possesion more often. As a golden standard we can take a look at Messi's numbers this season la liga: 82.3 touches, 46.8 successful passes and 19.6 possesions lost. He is pretty much in between. Based on this, the correlation is high between the number of touches and the amount of possesions lost. Which common sense would confirm. If you are trying more often, you are more likely to make mistakes. Neymar is much more active player than Hazard. My overal point is that dispossesions are inevitable part of trying to create chances. How much of losing the ball is too much is hard to say, probably impossible to universally claim.. It depends on every play in isolation.. did he make the right or the wrong decision. Having that said, Neymar's decision making is not perfect. He has tendency to attempt improbable moves and showboat for no reason, but those instances are very uncommon in big matches. He usually does them against inferior opponents. But Neymar is not the issue. Hazard is a master of seamingly doing something while doing nothing of an actual impact. He gets away with many moves as being world class simply because he looks super smooth and technical. I like to watch that, but it is not effective. And it is funny you criticize Neymar for rabonas, i've seen hazard doing them way more often. Notice how many dribbles are just faked crosses after which nothing comes out. He is dribbling past one player multiple times. Also his dribbling is very much limited to 1v1 with fullbacks, or 1v2, ocassionally counter attack or something. Hazard's statistic is suggesting he lacks end product and the killer pass. Not that he can not do it, he is a world class player, but incomparable to Neymar, even Cristiano in that particular segment. Neymar is a better dribbler. Can reach higher speeds. Can move in all direction, 360° dribbler. He has an incredibly effortless first step. He commands space much better, has an ability to dribble on one place, while Hazard is limited to agility and close control in a run. In terms of creativity, i mean is there anything to compare here. Stats are one-sided, eye test confirms it. Finishing as well. Neymar is simply more technically gifted player, aka more talented. Now, the way coaches uses them and utilize all of their strengths and manage their egos, is the story for itself. 2014/15 Neymar is one of the best second fiddle in history of sport imo. He began to have more responsibility in 2016 and 2017, but what Neymar did in 2015 season is something Hazard hasn't done and will not do ever. You can make excuses for him that he is not about end product, but his statistic is simply not good enough to be in that tier of players. Mane, Salah, Sterling, Mahrez, Robben, Ribery, Rashford,.... they all have much better statistics playing similar role. Inexcusable. What you see as being economical, i see as being ineffective. He would be much better of being direct, risking 4 or 5 more possesions per game than to dribble around defenders in circle. Neymar would be crucified for having seasons like this one in Real or the one in Chelsea back in 2016.
https://www.sportbible.com/football...-should-win-their-player-of-the-year-20200212 https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spo...erpool-player-ratings-premier-league-17708902 https://www.thisisanfield.com/2020/...ranking-liverpools-5-best-players-in-january/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/02/05/20-best-players-premier-league-january-2020/ I understand it is subjective and Henderson has two good months lately (as far as I can see), but I have some problems with it. 1) He was mediocre at the start of the season. This is what many Liverpool supporters say. 2) As if he is the only leader of that team. The only tactical and organizational leader. 3) He's one of the least sophisticated and refined midfielders of his team. Oxlade-Chamberlain, Fabinho, Keita and the rest have that more. From an occasionally doubted starter Henderson has become an almost certain one, but Wijnaldum played 230 minutes more than him in the league, and both Fabinho and Gini also played more minutes in the CL. Van Dijk played 660 more minutes than Henderson in league + CL combined (and no, this is not the only criterium ofc). With then a Matip/Lovren partnership producing this stuff. 4) Was he really the stand-out midfielder against Tottenham, Manchester United, Leicester or Man City? Personally I thought Fabinho and Wijnaldum were fantastic against Man City, and the latter again against Man United (I saw on twitter many agreed). 5) Per WhoScored he has only one MOTM performance (limiting to the 'non-scoring and non-assisting' players: vDijk has four). That's an indication for really standing out. I think on merit it has to be Mane (120 more minutes than Henderson in league + CL) or Van Dijk again. Most Liverpool fans on twitter say Van Dijk is the most consistent so far (if he played) but fair play if it is Mane who is also the top rated of his team on WhoScored (vDijk 0.09 behind). If Liverpool finishes with 112 points then arguably the awards need to be split around (previous season I felt vDijk had won the FWA too without Sterling's back story).
Serie A: Cristiano Ronaldo Josip Ilicic Ciro Immobile Luis Alberto HM: Romelu Lukaku, Brozovic, Paulo Dybala, Domenico Berardi La Liga: Lionel Messi Karim Benzema Casemiro Martin Odegaard Santi Cazorla PL: I can't really identify the standout performers in the Prem this season. A lot of people with some good stretches then fizzling out or with poor start followed by good runs recently. Kevin de Bruyne Adama Traore Bundesliga: Jadon Sancho Robert Lewandowski Timo Werner Filip Kostic Dayot Upamecano Ligue 1: Angel di Maria Neymar Jr. Kylian Mbappe Wissam Ben-Yedder Welcome back
Well, not entirely. We get an insight into this when Neymar played for less than stellar Brazil teams, or with holes in those teams. The 'gut feeling' is based on things as the dribble success rate, the loss of possession, the higher duel success rate, the better defensive stats, pass accuracy opposition half. Part of that is also Hazard his stronger built, with which he can withstand pressure or receive balls under pressure. Neymar is relatively weak in receiving balls while being marked. This is a good point but note here that the passes in the opposition half are almost the same (per SofaScore) with Hazard the higher accuracy there. Sure Neymar has more touches but that doesn't mean he is grand strategist or that the touches are all forward orientated. From time to time I felt both Hazard and Neymar didn't get the balance quite right. Hazard could be more productive and Neymar is maybe too much of a 'ball hog', too central in everything (serving no purpose) and loses the ball too often. Thanks to injuries we still don't know a lot about what he can do in KO games (in 2014-15 Suarez was more crucial). Switzerland, Real Madrid... Suarez was the 2nd fiddle. It is not an excuse. In the 2018 Brazil match Hazard completed 10 out of 10 dribbles. And he was effective with that. It's a good example of the general point (here another one - dribbles relative to success rate). All in all, Neymar has the advantage but not by miles. His raw statistics are better than his actual level of play (and unlike Messi/CR7 he's not super consistent or relentless - those two deliver the goods so logically it's built around them) and Hazard is better than his stats. There are studies suggesting the added value of Neymar's goals isn't so high (or that he isn't the better player anyway), and pretty much all of the trophies he won would've been won without him; that is not quite the case for Chelsea. (passes at the beginning and end in particular)
In fact, the two points are more or less correct, each in his view. Puck has no proof that Neymar would not be better at Lille than Hazard, or even Chelsea. In fact Neymar had a lot more responsibility and impact in Santos, a smaller team, than in Barcelona, this even in terms of participation in goals, plays, and even impact with and without Neymar on the field. So I really don't know how much Hazard would be a better player for smaller teams or not. But I would be in opposition in the case of Brazilian NT, since I think Brazil would do better with more offensive players than with more economical ones, because this is a Nteam that can accommodate these types of players and is used to. On the part of being economical and not going for high-risk moves, maybe that goes into the Ball Retention measurement of the Smarterscout website (you can register for free and see 10 players profile for day), in this variable Hazard is way above both Messi and Neymar, in the sense that he helps his team to maintain the possesion. Of course you can't take it totally seriously that they put Salah above Messi last season, as good as players like Mané or Salah are for a team that presses hard like Liverpool, they are nowhere near as brilliant offensively and as impactful as the Argentine. ⚽️👑Ballon d'Ata👑⚽️Top three RWs:🥇 Mohammed Salah🥈 Lionel Messi🥉 Jadon SanchoIS SALAH NOW BETTER THAN MESSI? We gave it to Mo because of his defending. There was almost nothing between them in attack. And Sancho... does this young man have a ceiling?#BallondAta pic.twitter.com/pbpXTS7KMs— smarterscout (@smarterscout) September 27, 2019 But overall I think Neymar as the focal point brings more offensive impact in general as actually has better GI than the belgian (you could ask it in the twitter if you want), specially when he is not afraid of the duels (in the French Ligue it has a very bad cost-benefit tho). PD: I don't understand Puck's affirmation of Neymar being inconsistent, actually it is the opposite ( Strengths: Consistency, Playmaking, Finishing),his record vs the top15 clubs in Europe is also pretty good for a player not being a focal point of team (Barcelona). In fact the fame of being inconsistent is more thing of Hazard imo (CL carrer, many big matches vs the top teams, 15/16 horrible season, WC14 and so on). Neymar arguably never had a bad season in his carrer like Coutinho, Dembele, Griezmann is having now at Barcelona, I mean world class players. Btw, As an example, let us consider all performances of role C6 (left forward): most of the players achieve excellence just once, while a few players achieve as many as 30 (Neymar, 21% of his performances), 16 (L. Insigne, 14%) and 15 (E. Hazard, 10%) excellent performances. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1802.04987.pdf Neymar is as good or slight better than Hazard as a ball carrier (better with progressive passes), better playmaker and goalscorer, also better in defense, more defensive actions (smarterscout; search Defensive actions Pepita de Ouro 2017 Goalpoint). I give Hazard the fact he keeps and protect the ball better not only than Neymar but also than Messi, but so is Isco keeping the ball very well too.
Actually being a shoot machine like Cristiano is known to be it is not a bad case or always a bad approach of the game but the opposite in most of the cases. Cristiano ability to get a shot by himself is pure gold, his range was awesome and he was a threat everywhere in the last third of the pitch. A lot of attacking-mid/forwards don't shoot enough, can't reach good goascoring position, can't read the match and can't manage to get a shot by themselves. They are just plain.
Cristiano was less of a shoot machine in his Manchester United days. Why do you not answer the question I asked? This is disingenuous: Santos was no small team in the Brazilian context and arguably even the most stacked team around. It is not a significant difference: both are in the 180-190 range per the data from 2017 (the latest that is public)
Retweet of Villa Analytics https://twitter.com/villaanalytics Santos was a mediocre side back 2008 or 2009. Neymar had impact on that Santos side, they won three times the Campeonato Paulista (2010, 2011, 2012), won the Libertadores (2011) and Neymar actually had impact in the Brazilian League. BR League Santos with Neymar on the pitch had 1.70 GF per match (without Neymar they had 1.04), and had 1.51 Point won on average (without Neymar it was 1.12). Neymar played 103 Matches in the Brazilian league and missed 49 between 2009 and 2012. Neymar had on average according Fbref site, 0.83 G+A-PK per 90 minutes in the BR league (0.83/1.70 = 48.82% of direct participation, including PKs 0.94/1.70 = 55,2%)... Lille's with Hazard had more more or less the same GF average of Santos, diffrence is that Hazard direct participations in Lille's goals was about 30% (instead of 49%) and 37% including PKs (and not 55%). Hazard is one of my favorite players, but let's be honest he is a man of modest numbers.
Thanks. ... and I say he is better than his numbers suggest, and Neymar is slightly better than him overall, a more gifted athlete, but not as good as his numbers. The GoalImpact rating (cited by you) above has a very minimal difference between the two. Both are/were between the 180-190 value (some others have Neymar higher, page 19, some do not). Transfer value is evidently not only determined by player quality or athletic potential. Neymar has 51 game winning goals excluding penalties (63 with pens) for his clubs. Hazard is on 40 game winning goals (excluding penalties, 49 with pens), mostly for defensive coaches and the then defensive Ligue 1. Hazard has played 80 more games in his career, but it's still a far smaller gap for winning matches than the raw numbers. This matches with above cited research (above post) where the value of Neymar's goals aren't rated enormously high. Similar points have been made by others: "He's been the Man of the Match for Chelsea a staggering 43 times between 2013 and 2018 in the competitive Premier League. Despite this, his value is diminished due to his low goal-scoring ability. Hazard has scored 60 goals in the aforementioned period. This is a significantly lower number than Neymar's, but here's the kicker: Hazard's goals contribute to 5.83% of Chelsea's 350 goals in the 5-year stretch, not much lower than Neymar's 6.05%. Yet, somehow the misconception is how the gap between the players is largely due to goals scored per season." https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/eden-hazard-vs-neymar-jr-the-allure-of-statistics https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/3-strong-reasons-why-hazard-is-better-than-neymar-ss In the 'Football Hackers' book the guy who made GoalImpact says this, a message echoed by others: "Human perceptions suffers from a series of defects. We overvalue actions - players who dribble or score goals. We overvalue playing time - 'he didn't play, he must be bad'. And we overvalue attacking play." We can also extend that to the younger players (with in mind they can suddenly improve or stall): http://www.goalimpact.com/blog/2018/4/18/young-player-challenge-march-2018-update It looks strange that Foden, Kluivert jr. and others (both having ranked high in the Kopa Trophy) are marginally above Sancho there. Who is right now in perception and actual level far superior (maybe a bit underwhelming for national team so far?). But it starts to make more sense when thinking about Sancho his ultra low defensive work; that opponents have joy on his flank (Dortmund vulnerable as a result); Sancho has been benched for important games because of the lack of tactical discipline; his two to three times as many turnovers as either of them; his relatively low pass accuracy or through ball success rate; or that Serie A is notoriously difficult for young players who don't have complete freedom (before his injury Kluivert the only under-21 player with 3 or more non-penalty goals & Roma doing a bit less well without him too). Without the red card he's #3 of his team in WhoScored (with red card #5) and close to the CL places. This is what he has to say in an interview where he acknowledges that he has to make steps (right now not good enough for the national team): Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler In terms of tactics, Kluivert has had to switch several times with Roma. Since his arrival, the club is ready for the third head coach. After Eusebio Di Francesco and Claudio Rainieri, Paulo Fonseca is now at the helm. The 46-year-old Portuguese is known as an attacking coach, without losing sight of the defensive organization. It makes the tasks of Kluivert comprehensive. "Running nicely with the ball and making actions, with that alone you can't make it in the Serie A", realizes the wings. "Deep inside, I will always remain an adventurous player who likes to follow his feelings in the field. I cherish that part too. I add mature elements to that playfulness in Italy. I mean: the balance between safe possession and risk in my actions, putting pressure after losing the ball, choosing the smart position. Great if you take action at Roma, but at the right time and with returns. Look, at Ajax you have an upper hand in nine of the ten matches. With a lot of possession and quick recapture after losing the ball. Then you can use most of the energy for your offensive actions. BEAUTIFUL PROCESS "At Ajax I was a real winger, with a lot of depth on the side. With Roma I play more often in the spaces between the lines, a bit more towards the axis of the field. We sort of play with three numbers 10, in a 4-2-3-1 system. And if there is room on the flank, I dive into it the old-fashioned way. That's the nature of the beast, huh. But we are working a lot on the way we want to play with Roma and my role in it. I have to move towards the ball more than with Ajax, so I have to go back a little further to be playable. Often you have an opponent in your neck and you stand with your back to the goal. At Ajax, on the other hand, I often faced the goal. That is a nice process, fulfilling your role in a different way. Sometimes I do it better than the other time, but there is progress. And the good thing is: it makes me a more complete player. " What I want to say is: Sancho is great, but not so much greater than Foden as his stats suggest (might as well flip around in due time). Whether he maximizes the winning chances of his feeble team is less obvious as his great output.
What I think about this whole debate. Neymar is easy target. Since he won nothing important as a referent (UCL, some TOP league if you do not include the Ligue 1 where he was still out for the most part and some Copa America or World Cup, even if we consider that the Olympics for Brazilians was much more important than the Copa America). This is where the comparison with Hazard etc starts. You will not be comparing a player who has won 5 World Champions like Cristiano Ronaldo with him, for example. https://tribuna.com/en/realmadrid/news/3444688/ The point is that sometimes it's not all about quality of execution, but sometimes it's about quantity and impact on the pitch like in the Plus-Minus method. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317614652_Plus-Minus_Player_Ratings_for_Soccer https://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-sports-analytics/jsa200432 Of course, I don't know exactly the methodology used for each study, but there are several different ways to measure the performance of the players in the field. But if we go to the simplest aspects, I could also say that Neymar is more than his numbers and that he also brings things not as easily verifiable as the Belgian. He's not only his number (final passer, shooter) in terms of second/third assists, passes to the final 1/3, to the PK area, ball progression with his runs, xG Chain per 90. Hazard has on Neymar is his elite ball retention even when he offensive contribution is failing like in this season, I give you that, his strong upper body, close control and agility makes him one of the best in this sense, even one of his best performance that was Belgium against Brazil in the WC18 was more about progressing the ball with his runs and maintain the possesion under pressure. Neymar, in that match, had for sure more xA + xG compared (3 shots + 7 key passes vs 2 shots and 0 key passes) and even the Belgian goals come from a Fernandinho's own goal and a improbable shot from De Bruyne. Remember that the expected Goals had Brazil on advantage. In the GI method (I think maybe they still didn't cover South American football that well, for sure less the European one), but Neymar was still TOP10 in 2018 and since he had positive impact on PSG, and PSG had his GI improved then I assume Neymar GI is now actually bigger than it was back then, he was the 8º while Hazard failed to enter in the TOP20 at that time Current Top-20 Goalimpact pic.twitter.com/l1YuGmmCsg— Goalimpact (@Goalimpact) March 18, 2018 . About Sancho I don't think his touch Neymar and Hazard impact for now. His dribbling ability is suspect imo (smarterscout think actually he is under average for the Spanish/English leagues) and he is not so envolved in build up plays (the main playmaker of his team is Brandt), he is more your final passer and shooter. But he is a excellent finisher tho, very composed, almost lethal there. But he is not as influential as Neymar, not even close. I also think Bundesliga is somewhat weak/soft defensively, I feel players have more space there, but that is my opinion. Neymar, on the other hand, is much more targeted in Ligue 1 and it is not common for him to take a harder hit than he took in the Spanish league. PD: Smarterscout has Kluivert failing a bit in his productions with Roma, even tho they agree with the idea that Sancho this season is not being as good as 18/19, despite of his numbers.
@Tropeiro Sancho averages 52 passes per match Neymar (58), Messi (56), Kevin de Bruyne (54). In what way do you mean he is not so involved in build up plays? Julian Brandt averages 47 passes per match btw. At 19 he has two seasons with double digits for goals and assists in the BuLi which IMO is remarkable. I tend to agree with Puck regarding his tactical nous (he is still only 19 though) and the lack of defensive input. Favre seems to agree too and has switched to a 3-4-3 where to offset that, I think Hakimi isn't the most solid defender either but is brilliant going forward and Favre has solved that situation brilliantly. You have a point about Bundesliga being more open than the French League.
Brandt complete less passes per match but he complete almost the double to the PK area and to the final third of the pitch than Sancho. Neymar almost three times more. Sancho is bad defensively according to the smarterscout (for the SS/RW position most minutes played this season it is 33/33 in quantity/quality out of 100), he was better last season.
Fair enough, I only looked at touches, passes, key paces, chances created, big chances created. And for comparison between this season and last his whoscored and sofascore ratings are way way higher. His raw numbers apart from dribbles too.
Well thats the difference between you and me. I am not putting much value on statistic like successful dribblings, percantage of completed passes in the final third, etc. For one simple reason. Attackers dont play football to retain possesion or to make as many dribbles as possible, but to help their team score. Often, a dribble, whether successful or not, is not a good decision to make. Sometimes, taking risk, even if it results in incompleted pass, is the best decision ti make. I base my opinion on hundreds of hours of watching time and getting feel for them. Hazard is technically incredible dribbler and in theory with that level of technique, he should be amongst the best generational dribblers, but he aint effective with it. Robben was better dribbler imo, although he wasnt technically as sound. Statistic for me is nothing but a indicator of certain patterns in their playing styles. They are not the thing that determine how good someone is. The lack of Hazards basic statistics (goals and assists) i read as him not being simple and direct enough in front of goal. You can not explain the lack of it by his positioning because he is offensive minded enough. Plus you can see in Lille that he had capacity and style to score and assist. It is something about him that makes him not score as much as his competitors. And you are taking my points out if context. Fine, Neymar was the 3rd fiddle in Barcelona, it diesnt matter. My point was that Neymar can play in a supporting role something which you implied he couldnt by saying he disturbs balance of the team. There is nothing about Neymar that makes him incapable to step back and take on more economical role. He could be efficient with his percantages, no problem. But again my point is that those percantages dont matter. Penalty for getting dispossesed is minimal in football. The bottom line is what you concretely deliver in terms of created chances and goals scored. Those moments win you games, and thats what make players great. Neymar is better at that. Edit: i am not surpirsed at all with Hazards struggling for real, actually was anticipating that. The hype was too big. It will continue to some extand. He wont magically learn how to effortlessly score 20+ goals per league season. He aint that kind of player. Real needs someone to score goals beside Benzema who is inconsistent.
Of course he has more winning goals than Neymar, since he is the main goalscorer of his teams (Neymar was just the third option in Barcelona behind Suarez and Messi and just the second in PSG behind Mbappe). Cristiano probably has much more winning goals than someone like Cruyff too. Btw, Non-PK Winning Goals/matches Cristiano Ronaldo 161/832 = 19,35% Neymar 51/396 = 12,87% Robben 52/607 = 8,56% Hazard 40/560 = 7,14% Would be nice to see this for Winning assists goals too. But here I think is better compare Neymar with Robben or Hazard since Neymar is more a Wide sided player in comparasion with Zlatan's, Higuain's and even Ronaldo's and Messi's. Figure 16: Heatmap showing the frequency of top players to play in the 8 roles (the darker a cell the higher the frequency). The players are sorted from the least versatile (Neymar) to the most versatile (Sergi Roberto) https://arxiv.org/pdf/1802.04987.pdf
Do you really read things? The study is for the seasons 2014/2015 to 2017/2018. There is no equal study about this season. The study is what it is. Neymar was your least versatile player, a pure LW/LF back Barcelona, that was in part to accomadate Messi. Now, in his best version this season he is getting LM position according smarterscout, but he operates more in the center as well.
Including 2017/18? Okay.. Nonsense to determine ones position through average placement on the field. Redundant statistic. Pointless. To even suggest Neymar is not versatile player come on.. he has been through so many changes and adaptations. From a classical inside forward to a primary playmaker. From a brief look, the study doesnt take in consideration deviations but merely average position, which would explain this nonsense.
6.2 Versatility The role detector of PlayeRank enables the analysis of an important aspect of a player’s behavior: his versatility, that we define as a player’s propensity to change role from match to match. To investigate this aspect, we define the versatility of a player as the Shannon entropy of his roles in a series of matches M: V (u, M) = − Ík i=1 p(u, M)i logp(u, M)i log k (7) where k = 8 and p(u, M)i is the probability of player u of playing in role i, computed as the ratio of the number of matches in M in which u played in role i. Figure 16 displays the frequency p(u, M)i of playing in a role i for a set of top soccer players. We observe that many players have a high versatility, i.e., they play in different roles across different matches. In particular, Sergi Roberto (Barcelona) and Neymar (PSG) are among the most versatile and the least versatile players, respectively. Figure 17 visualizes all the centers of performance of Sergi Roberto and Neymar, coloring the centers according to the role assigned by the role detector. We observe that Neymar’s centers of performance are concentrated in just one role (C8, left forward) while Sergi Roberto’s centers are scattered around the field, indicating that he plays in all 8 roles, witnessing a high versatility. Numerically, we observe that V (Sergi Roberto) = 0.45 and V (Neymar) = 0.016. The versatility of a player is an important property to take into account when composing a club’s roster. PlayeRank embeds versatility within its analytic framework, allowing soccer practitioners and scouters to evaluate the flexibility https://arxiv.org/pdf/1802.04987.pdf