Best players in the world 2019/20

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    As powerful as Barcelona is, and as marketable as Messi is, I just think the momentum of leading Liverpool to their first league title since 1990 and Netherlands first title since 1988, is just a wave too big even for UCL-winning Messi.

    I know he has his handicaps, and Messi has his advantages, but now that we see how powerful the African, North American and Asian markets are, we must not forget the influence the English media has over those markets.

    It's a massive if, of course. The chance of Liverpool winning the league title, Netherlands winning the EURO, and VVD being the star player in both victories, is very slim. My point is simply that if it does happen, I cannot see him not winning the BDO.
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The north american soccer market is traditionally also heavily influenced by the Spanish hemisphere because of the Mexican influx. Middle and North America preferred Messi to a greater degree than the South Americans!

    Gazzetta dello Sport wrote that their colleagues should only ask European journalists again. Basically, under the classic rules Sneijder, Ribéry, Van Dijk and maybe Iniesta had all received one of that thing. One of Gazzetta their arguments are that now journalists are voting who don't watch the Champions League (or other major games). Those Caribbean Islands don't watch the Champions League.

    Interesting to note is the French representative had Mane on top, just as Mane winning the Onze d'Or (which is a vote by the public). In Senegal they speak, of course, French as first language. One good performing forward (and Mane does) can always pick enough votes away. He is one of the early favorites for PFA player of the year (voted in April, instead of February) and would have been a worthy Ballon d'Or winner as well if you ask me (as Edhardy says, I struggle to see an angle to put Salah in the top five).
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    “What? Argentina and Qatar backed Messi? Really?” (On the plus side, Trent Alexander-Arnold should book a summer break in Sri Lanka given that they placed him No 1).

    Ronaldo did not bother to attend last night's ceremony, so presumably the organisers are under pressure to privately announce the winner to him or Messi in advance, thus avoiding their ritual humiliation and phoney smiles. Ronaldo and Messi were reportedly fuming when Luka Modric had the audacity to break their duopoly in 2018 (neither turned up last year), so there was no chance of Van Dijk being allowed to repeat the trick. Once Messi confirmed his presence in Paris, the game was up.
    [...]
    One club has spat out so many dummies on red carpets in the past few years because their players did not win individual honours that they ought to announce a sponsorship deal with Mothercare. They embarked on a co-ordinated PR strategy, buttering up potential voters to avoid a repeat. Take your guess who.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...wins-ballon-dor-loses-little-credibility/amp/


    Manchester United perhaps?
     
  4. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    I disaree. Only world cup is greater story than champions league. Vvd had virtually as strong case as it gets in a nonworld cup year this year and he lost to uclless Messi. Messi lifting ucl again doing what he does is greater story than vvd being one of the good performers of his teams. Even now i dont think he is a favorite for another poty award.

    Yeah, i think Mane is overrated. Ive seen now from many people this narrative that Mane is a worthy winner.. ordinary world class year. Its perception is skewed by teams success. Nothing individually that hasnt been matched or surpassed by di maria 2014, salah 2018, ribery 2013, etc.
     
  5. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Another list, this time from Match magazine:

    100. Vela
    99. Quagliarella
    98. Maddison
    97. Cazorla
    96. Chilwell
    95. Ibrahimovic
    94. Havertz
    93. Dzeko
    92. Henderson
    91. Abraham
    90. Haaland
    89. Coutinho
    88. Lukaku
    87. Zaha
    86. Marcelo
    85. Mertens
    84. Maguire
    83. Sane
    82. Eriksen
    81. Depay
    80. Dybala
    79. Reus
    78. Cavani
    77. Pogba
    76. Chiellini
    75. Rashford
    74. Icardi
    73. Immobile
    72. Isco
    71. Hummels
    70. Thiago Silva
    69. Sule
    68. Lacazette
    67. De Gea
    66. Bale
    65. Neuer
    64. Witsel
    63. Rodri
    62. Bruno Fernandes
    61. Skriniar
    60. Busquets
    59. Mahrez
    58. Thiago Alcantara
    57. Saul
    56. Bonucci
    55. Di Maria
    54. Vardy
    53. Casemiro
    52. Ederson
    51. Verratti
    50. Kroos
    49. Pique
    48. Kimmich
    47. Pjanic
    46. Gnabry
    45. Sancho
    44. Tadic
    43. Varane
    42. David Silva
    41. Alaba
    40. Fernandinho
    39. Van de Beek
    38. Marquinhos
    37. Ramos
    36. Modric
    35. Ziyech
    34. Suarez
    33. Kante
    32. Wijnaldum
    31. Joao Felix
    30. Ter Stegen
    29. Fabinho
    28. Alba
    27. Benzema
    26. Robertson
    25. Laporte
    24. De Ligt
    23. Kane
    22. Koulibaly
    21. Son
    20. Aubameyang
    19. Alexander-Arnold
    18. Bernardo Silva
    17. Oblak
    16. Aguero
    15. Griezmann
    14. De Bruyne
    13. Alisson
    12. De Jong
    11. Neymar
    10. Hazard
    9. Firmino
    8. Sterling
    7. Ronaldo
    6. Mbappe
    5. Salah
    4. Lewandowski
    3. Mane
    2. Messi
    1. Van Dijk
    100. Vela
    99. Quagliarella
    98. Maddison
    97. Cazorla
    96. Chilwell
    95. Ibrahimovic
    94. Havertz
    93. Dzeko
    92. Henderson
    91. Abraham
    90. Haaland
    89. Coutinho
    88. Lukaku
    87. Zaha
    86. Marcelo
    85. Mertens
    84. Maguire
    83. Sane
    82. Eriksen
    81. Depay
    80. Dybala
    79. Reus
    78. Cavani
    77. Pogba
    76. Chiellini
    75. Rashford
    74. Icardi
    73. Immobile
    72. Isco
    71. Hummels
    70. Thiago Silva
    69. Sule
    68. Lacazette
    67. De Gea
    66. Bale
    65. Neuer
    64. Witsel
    63. Rodri
    62. Bruno Fernandes
    61. Skriniar
    60. Busquets
    59. Mahrez
    58. Thiago Alcantara
    57. Saul
    56. Bonucci
    55. Di Maria
    54. Vardy
    53. Casemiro
    52. Ederson
    51. Verratti
    50. Kroos
    49. Pique
    48. Kimmich
    47. Pjanic
    46. Gnabry
    45. Sancho
    44. Tadic
    43. Varane
    42. David Silva
    41. Alaba
    40. Fernandinho
    39. Van de Beek
    38. Marquinhos
    37. Ramos
    36. Modric
    35. Ziyech
    34. Suarez
    33. Kante
    32. Wijnaldum
    31. Joao Felix
    30. Ter Stegen
    29. Fabinho
    28. Alba
    27. Benzema
    26. Robertson
    25. Laporte
    24. De Ligt
    23. Kane
    22. Koulibaly
    21. Son
    20. Aubameyang
    19. Alexander-Arnold
    18. Bernardo Silva
    17. Oblak
    16. Aguero
    15. Griezmann
    14. De Bruyne
    13. Alisson
    12. De Jong
    11. Neymar
    10. Hazard
    9. Firmino
    8. Sterling
    7. Ronaldo
    6. Mbappe
    5. Salah
    4. Lewandowski
    3. Mane
    2. Messi
    1. Van Dijk
     
  6. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    This is a fairly snobby and narrow-minded take from Gazzetta. The truth is that we have seen plenty of dubious selections from numerous big nations over the years and I can't detect over the years a correlation between footballing quality and the choices made by voters.

    We have no reason to think the journalists in the Carribean don't watch the Champions League.
     
    Sexy Beast repped this.
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Not saying I agree with GdS their 'recommendation' (I don't), but;

    Didn't you say recently (to Vegan10 I remember) that the idea of Riquelme in the conversation as Messi's equivalent, by pundits in Argentina and/or South America, is based on the time difference?

    That when the Champions League is on people (and also journalists) are doing other things. Then they see/saw those players in the Copa America or Libertadores and the perception gets flawed.

    I saw Sid Lowe asking this week how Javi Martinez has been doing in the Bundesliga. He doesn't follow this, and the Champions League games (unless against a Spanish team ofc), at all. Let alone when there is a time difference.

    Similarly, the important Liverpool vs City game was played at night for the time zone of Japan I think, and the Champions League games too.

    https://www.thisisanfield.com/2019/11/liverpool-3-1-man-city-player-ratings/
     
  8. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I think I said it was a factor, along with the fact he never played in Argentina. I would imagine (I might be completely wrong) that journalists in countries like Argentina with major domestic leagues would be more focused at home than countries in the Caribbean but I don't know.

    Your point though rather speaks to the problem of covering so much of the game.

    The voters from Europe (like Henry Winter from England) cover their own domestic leagues primarily. He'll have seen a lot of Van Dijk for instance but probably not that that much of Messi to make any sort of comparison.
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Most probably the order would have been the reverse if the vote was done directly after the Club World Cup (provided Liverpool wins of course and there is the odd long pass for the highlight reel), which used to be the case. This is 'oddly' an event journalists from multiple continents follow, with their own teams in play, and perhaps the Americas even more so. It's a grueling schedule for PL clubs and chances are VvD will be one of the few to play all those games.

    Henry Winter seems to me someone who weighs 'the story' as much as performance and quantity.

    What I respect him for is that he made defending (more) fashionable again, when it is harder than ever to stop strikers, and he did that increase in appreciation all by himself. Teenagers now aspire to be Pirlo and a defender rolled into one, as the next phase to be done.

    Don't know for sure, but I know in Suriname it is like that. They struggle to follow what happens in Europe but of course the final is in a weekend at a favorable time.

    There is also a difference between, say Korea and certain mini states as the Seychelles, Saint Kitts (or Andorra, San Marino) I'd say.
     
  10. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
  11. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  13. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    47 turnovers is an incredible amount, even against 126 touches. His productivity over the long haul is still world class.
     
  14. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Isn't that the natural price of high volume productivity anyway though? You have more turnovers when you're the one making the risky actions.
     
    Edhardy repped this.
  15. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    This was the Guardian's top 100:

    100. Coutinho
    99. Lacazette
    98. Handanovic
    97. Cazorla
    96. Ibrahimovic
    95. Gueye
    94. Quagliarella
    93. De Gea
    92. Everton
    91. Sane
    90. Hakimi
    89. Dele Alli
    88. Lloris
    87. Abraham
    86. Havertz
    85. Godin
    84. Pukki
    83. Gimenez
    82. Pique
    81. Verratti
    80. Reus
    79. Busquets
    78. Mertens
    77. Arthur
    76. Depay
    75. Gabriel Jesus
    74. Henderson
    73. Varane
    72. Rashford
    71. Marquinhos
    70. Chiellini
    69. Bruno Fernandes
    68. Thiago Silva
    67. Lucas Moura
    66. Bruno Henrique
    65. Alba
    64. Zupata
    63. Immobile
    62. Jorginho
    61. Casemiro
    60. Icardi
    59. Werner
    58. Fernandinho
    57. Dani Alves
    56. Cavani
    55. Pogba
    54. Laporte
    53. Haaland
    52. Gabriel Barbosa
    51. Lukaku
    50. Pjanic
    49. Mahrez
    48. Vardy
    47. Lauturo Martinez
    46. David Silva
    45. Modric
    44. Kroos
    43. Wijnaldum
    42. Dybala
    41. Eriksen
    40. Ederson
    39. Di Maria
    38. Gnabry
    37. Kimmich
    36. Ramos
    35. Felix
    34. Fabinho
    33. Van de Beek
    32. Sancho
    31. Neymar
    30. Koulibaly
    29. Ziyech
    28. Aubameyang
    27. Tadic
    26. Suarez
    25. Griezmann
    24. Oblak
    23. Robertson
    22. Kante
    21. Ter Stegen
    20. Benzema
    19. Son
    18. De Ligt
    17. Alexander-Arnold
    16. Bernardo Silva
    15. Kane
    14. Hazard
    13. Aguero
    12. De Bruyne
    11. Firmino
    10. De Jong
    9. Alisson
    8. Sterling
    7. Lewandowski
    6. Mbappe
    5. Salah
    4. Ronaldo
    3. Mane
    2. Van Dijk
    1. Messi

    https://www.theguardian.com/global/...e-100-best-male-footballers-in-the-world-2019
     
    Titanlux repped this.
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #67 PuckVanHeel, Dec 24, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
    Belgium has been declared as the best European national team of 2019 by France Football



    Yet they have only four players in The Guardian top 100 (Brazil 17, England 9, France 9, Germany 8, Spain 7, Argentina 6, Italy 5, Netherlands 5, Uruguay 4, Portugal 4). The ones who should be in are not forgotten, but not a great amount beyond that, unlike a few other countries.

    As for the decade ranking, with England 3rd, compare that with this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Football_Elo_Ratings#Averages_by_decade

    It has been the decade of organized fake news, yellow journalism and relentless propaganda machinery for the ones with money. The reputation of Italian and Dutch football took a heavy hit this decade.
     
  17. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    #68 Sexy Beast, Dec 24, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
    Why do you keep confusing incompetence with propaganda.

    There is no intentional, structural oppression of Netherlands in football. I know you would like to think opposite, but Netherlands is unimportant. Period. It is a common phenomenon that small nations are underrepresented and undervalued.

    Surely there might be an unconscious bias against Dutch football for whatever cultural reason, but it is exactly that, UNCONSCIOUS bias. You are reading waaaaay too much into it.

    Plus you are contradicting yourself all the time. Now you claim that Italian football took a reputational hit in this decade, but previously youve claimed Italy to be a part of top 5 rich oppressors. In what world is that consistent with your new, implied, claim that Dutch football took a reputational hit because of oppression?

    In what way is Dutch football challenging the status quo that they have to be oppressed?
    What is that blissful status quo, that the oppresors so dearly hold on to, anyway?
    And
    What is the huge financial incentive behind underrepresenting Dutch players in awards? Who financially gains from that?

    None of these have obvious answers, which is a non-starter for any disucssion going forward.

    You are falling down into the confirmation bias trap. If you look for them, arguments for oppression can be found in everyone's case. All nations are oppressed in some way. All of them, at one point, were treated unfairly in some way. It is just that you happen to be Dutch, so you dont care about finding out the ways in which all the German footballers were underrepresented in awards. Surely, there are dozens of example in past 25 for every nation.

    What is happening is this?
    Incompetence probably combined with some unconscious, cultural bias, that you are reading waay too much into because you are Dutch.
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Please calm down a bit. You are conflating and mixing up a few things here. As you can read, I actually don't restrict my comment/observation to one country or team only.

    I was primarily talking about how a few sources regard the national team strength (I.e. the FF ranking and FIFA ranking) and how this matches with the inclusions and/or performances by Elo (over the decade or current Elo). Italian footballers are not as highly regarded as they were 15 or 20 years ago I think and you are mixing up a few things now.

    Either way, here the full list
     

    Attached Files:

  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The essence of my above post is simply I'm surprised how;

    1) BEL is now #1 in Elo, #1 in the FIFA ranking, #1 in the (subjective) France Football ranking/survey.

    2) Yet there are only four players among the best 100. All the players who *should* be in are there, but not the ones beyond that.

    That was the main tenet and substance of my post/observation (with at the end a brief remark about ITA and NED).
     
  20. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Incompetence, laziness, indifference. People are irrational. It is extremely difficult to apply any logic consistently.

    These are not fan projects made out of true passion for football with infinite time and motivation. They are paid to do them.

    More precisely, they are paid to make them as clickable and as readable as possible. They dont care about the truth at all.

    Which is why outsourcing your opinion to the l'equipe, the guardian, the gazzetta, the schmazzetta makes no sense.
     
  21. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    You would think getting paid to do them would result in higher quality though. After all, instead of spending a few hours after work doing it, they get to spend 8 hours a day doing it.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Well yes, that is basically the same as how I see it.

    I don't think I have ever used the word 'oppression'. 'Oppression' is a strange word in the sense it is exclusively directed *against* something or someone rather than *for* something. It is something I didn't say.
     
  23. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Well it does result in higher quality..
    But high quality to them is defined as:
    • How many people click on the article
    • How long they stay on the website afterwards
    • How likely are they to share it
    The truth is merely a 2nd order consequence of these 3 parameters that arises coincidentally and situationally. If you are not optimizing for the 3 parameters, you are falling behind competition and eventually dying as a business. Everyone in the industry universally does that.

    If the financially most profitable strategy was to post absolute bs, they would post absolute bs.
     
  24. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    The one thing is to say it, the other to show it. I believe one is defined by way he acts.

    If you truly believed that, i dont think you would be outraged.

    It is ever-present in all the layers of football. Propaganda at times benefits dutch players as well. You are having a very one sided view at times.
    "They are all about propaganda, we are all clean" kind of mentality (have in mind i havent read all of your posts). Of course with in group mentality you would never consider that Van Dijk for example hugely benefited from propaganda in 2019.

    Tell me in what world is it fair that, for ballon dor, Van Dijk scored 679 points and Alisson only 67? Alisson was arguably THE missing piece that pushed them to the new heights. Quite an easy case to make. A true man of the match of the boring ucl final. Almost never made any mistakes and on top of all of that, had very impressive, campaign-winning Copa America.
    Van Dijk is a markatable persona that some people want to take advantage of. Handsome, charitable, charismatic, speaks english fluently...

    Your south american mobs talk, rich leagues outrage, etc., is not what someone, who believes that, does.
     

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