Best Heavyweights of All-Time As I get older, I'm starting to appreciate the sweet-science more and more. I've been watching HBO's series on the greatest fights of all-time. To be a good boxer requires so many different skills. And it's amazing how hard it is to both defend yourself and amount an attack. When you attack, it always leaves openings for the opponent. Here is my ranking of the top heavyweights of the sweet-science: 1. Joe Lewis: All I've seen are some clips. But he looks awesome in the clips. And people say he had everything. Power, speed, skill, a great chin, stamina and a will to win. 2. Muhammad Ali: Before his suspension, he probably was even better than Lewis. No heavyweight has ever been as fast -- both handspeed and footspeed. 3. Rocky Marciano: Again, I've only seen clips. But he had good power, and a great chin. He was hard to hit, too. 4. Joe Frazier: Great left-hook. Incredible determination. Good defense. Not real fast, and his face would get swollen-up. 5. George Foreman: Incredible power. Great size. Better than people think in terms of defense. 6. Larry Holmes: Great jab. Good chin. Used the whole ring. Hard to get inside on. 7. Lennox Lewis: The biggest of the bunch. Good jab. Really long reach. Intelligent fighter. Knows how to win ugly. Underrated power. Questionable jaw: Remember Hasim Rachman? Also, not very fast. 8. Mike Tyson: Hardest punch of all of them. In his youth, he had good movement. He was hard to hit. Questionable chin. And as he got older, he became too much of a sitting-duck. People say Jack Johnson was great. But all I've seen of him is a little bit of really grainy footage. He's way before my time.
I would say that after the first 3, there is a considerable gap. I would also move Foreman up to 4th due to the fact that he won in the 90s, another era of great heaveyweights. And for that reason, I think Tyson should be 5. His chin wasn't really known until late because he was so dominating.
Tyson ahead of Joe Frazier? No freaking way.....Frazier's left hook was the stuff legends were made of. I think this guy here makes a good point about Fraizer, that ABC has played the 'down goes Frazier' line so much that the public really doesn't remember how great the man really was. Frazier is far above any heavyweight fighter from 1980 to today. He lost 4 times, twice each to two legendary fighters, and he actually beat one of the legendary fighters in what is, IMO, the greatest boxing match of all time. http://www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-news/Joe-Frazier.php
I thought about that, and that he beat Ali. Anybody who knows anything about Boxing knows how intense Cosell's call was, and the thrill behind it (meaning that it wasn't really expected). That being said, until Tyson lost to Buster Douglas, nobody could even touch him. It was a long fight if it went 3 rounds. I thought Tyson above Fraiser because of that period of total dominance - though it is by a hair (and I believe the first Ali/Fraiser fight to be the greatest of all time - but that is for a different thread).
Tyson would have been better than Frazier..... his period of domination lasted too short. He threw it all away.
In Tyson's 'period of domination', he never faced anyone that was a fourth of the calibar of Joe Frazier, execpt for an over the hill Larry Holmes, and Michael Spinx, a light heavyweight. Look at the guys he fought. Trevor Berbick? Pinklon Thomas? Carl 'the Truth' Williams? Tony Tucker? A virtual who's who of nobodys. And he got worked by Buster Douglas, who would have been a nobody had he not beat Tyson.
Muhammad Ali, pre-1967, was the best fighter of all time. No heavyweight ever (Joe Louis included) could have ever touched him. He was just unbelievably fast. Watch the Cleveland Williams fight on Nov. 14, 1966 (the day of my birth) to see what a freak of nature he really was. The 1970's was easily the best ever era for heavyweights, Ali, Frazier, Norton, Foreman, Ellis, Shavers, Holmes. They were all guys with great skill or an intimidating punch. As far as post-1980 goes, Lennox Lewis should not be mentioned in any greatest heavyweights of all time argument. He is champ in an era of utter mediocrity. I understand it's not his fault, but he got KO'd by Hasim Rachman (please). Tyson deserves some plaudits, but he also fought against inferior fighters. I have no doubt about Tyson's skill (especially in the early years), but he would have intimidated no one in the early 70's.
ed, how about the middleweights? There are great arguments here,as well (except for Sugar Ray Leonard).
I think you have to put Ali over Louis-especially due to the quality of Ali's opponents. He fought: Sonny Liston twice (2-0) Frazier three times (2-1) Norton three times (2-1) Foreman once (1-0) Then throw in the fact he still had enough in his tank to beat Sphinx after losing the first time...Louis and Marciano just didn't have the same quality of opponents. And this include some of the others that Narmec listed. Here are two of my favorites photos: http://www.geocities.com/castmind/ali.html The first is Ali in 1966 against Henry Cooper-it's tells it all: the speed and power-lean and mean. The other is of Marciano. Threre is even a better photo of this punch (the use of strobes were great for boxing photos) that show the moment of impact. It's the most devestating boxing photo I've seen. Just brutal.
I agreed with you on the "Mickey Mouses" he beat during that period. But given his talent, he would have done better if he took his career more serious. His layoff due to jail time seriously hurt his career. If he practiced hard, he would have beaten Holyfield.
I agree with everything in Narmec's first post; couldn't have said it better. No one mentions the Real Deal Holyfield in the mix of the greats ?!? Evander is without a doubt somewhere in between 5-8. The man is natural lightheavy that went toe to toe with much bigger men, and showed the heart of a lion. I'm not so sure Mike would have beaten him pre or post jail (we'll never know). He took on all comers, and the three fights with Bowe (when Bowe was a very good fighter) is the stuff of legend. His durability over such a long period while being undersized is just amazing. Plus, he gets in for being immortalized in 'The Chronic' If you put Foreman that high, than you need to put Liston in as well. He was Foreman before Foreman. 1) Ali 2) Joe Louis 3) Jack Johnson 4) Larry Holmes - most underrated 5) Evander Holyfied 6) George Foreman 7) Joe Frazier 8) Jack Dempsey 9) Mike Tyson 10) Sonny Liston
Good Thread! Okay,you guys mentioned a lot of legends up there but right the heavyweight division is kind of weak.There is really no dominant fighter right now.Who's the next big thing in the heavyweight division?Klitchko lost to some nobody and I doubt Tua or Rahman can ever dominate the division,what about Chris Byrd or can you guys think of someone else?
Norton and Liston were really good. I might have to re-think my list. Norton had an incredible physique. And he out-boxed Ali. Although Ali was way passed his prime then, Ali was still great. The Ali/Joe Louis issue is tough. Louis had more power. But Ali in his prime was untouchable. It's freakish to watch "pre-suspension" Ali. It's like no human should be able to do that. He didn't even have to cover up. He was just too fast. One time I was explaining Ali's greatness to my Mom, and I said, "He was just so fast. You couldn't get a good shot at him." But she said, "Yeah, but the boxing ring is so small. How can one avoid contact?" I said, "Mom, I don't know how. But watch the films: He was able to do it!" Also, Ali wasn't a small guy. And he had a great jab. His power was underrated. I have to admit that one reason I'm putting Louis ahead of him is political. I never liked that racial stuff that Ali directed at Frazier. Frazier was a great champion and a good guy. I know Ali was trying to sell ticket and psyche-out the opponent, but he went over the line with that "Gorilla" stuff. In contrast, Louis was the consummate gentleman and professional. By the same token, the Vietnam War was a terrible war. And Ali stood up against it, losing his prime years. That deserves credit. Another factor that helps Louis was that Louis/Max Schmelling fight. What a remarkable moment for sports and society. These HBO specials are really good. HBO is a good network: The Sopranos, Real Sports (except Frank Deford), Sex in the City, Six Feet Under, OZ, Da Ali G Show. They had one episode on the Cooney/Holmes fight. I was a kid when that fight happened. We had a soccer game that day, three-hours away from my house. I remember my Dad and me wanting to get home so we could watch that fight. It was a really good fight. There's been some revisionist history on that one. People make it out that Cooney was a second-rate fighter who got where he did only because he was white. The fact of the matter is Cooney was pretty darn good. He was no Larry Holmes. Holmes was much more skillful. And Cooney was so top-heavy. His legs were like sticks. I don't know how they kept him up. Sort of like Tommy Hearns -- the anti-soccer player physique. But Cooney was good. He knocked out Ken Norton. Norton was way passed his prime. But still… And Cooney had a lot of heart and a good punch. And he used both hands. That was a great fight. HBO also had an episode on the Alexis Arguelo/Aaron Pryor match. Anyone who has a chance: Watch that episode! Pryor was a beast. Amazing. He maybe even could have beaten Leonard. Watch his movement, relentless and power. And he beat a great fighter in Arguelo. I always liked Arguelo because I used to live in Costa Rica, and he was a hero in Central America. He was an amazing counter-puncher. He had great heart, and a good head. He was so skinny, though. And Pryor was just too good. Too bad Pryor got into drugs. Also, HBO’s episode on Hearns/Hagler is good. Hearns was a violation of the laws of physics: No guy that skinny should be able to have a punch like that. His long, wiry arms seem to give his punch some sort of sling-shot affect. Watch when he Roberto Duran, another great boxer. It’s terrifying. Duran was out before he hit the mat. I don’t know the middleweight divisions as well. But here is my initial list: 1. Sugar Ray Robinson: He was amazing. A fighter with no flaw. Well, I guess he did have just one: he stayed in the game too long. But he was so fluid and powerful 2. Sugar Ray Leonard: Great movement and speed. If I would have been one of the judges for Leonard/Hagler, I would have voted for Leonard. Hagler didn’t get any good shots on him, so then you have to go for the artistry, aesthetics and showmanship. It’s a sport, afterall. And Leonard wins on those counts. But if they would have fought 5 times, I bet Hagler wins 4 out of 5. 3. Marvin Hagler 4. Jake Lamota 5. Tommy Hearns 6. Roberto Duran Where do you put Roy Jones? We can’t really say he’s a middleweight. And he’s no heavyweight. But, whatever he is, he's a darn good boxer. Did you guys catch the Tua/Rachman fight? Both those guys are huge. Heavyweights today are bigger than they used to be. But neither of them moved much: They just sort of stood there in the middle of the ring. I wish boxing wasn’t so brutal. It seems like every retired boxer has sort of slurred speech – like Anna Nicole Smith.
Real Ray, is the location for the Ali-Cooper fight correct? Highbury? If true, holy ************! An Arsenal fan with his legend fighting in hallowed ground? Thank you, Real Ray! tpmazembe, I agree with you about Holyfield (real deal), but not so high. He deserves to be in the top ten, though. I didn't make a list, but tpmazembe is exactly right. There can't be a list without Jack Johnson. So, here goes: 1. Ali (no doubt) 2. Jack Johnson 3. Joe Louis 4. Rocky Marciano (fighting old guys doesn't cut it-see Sugar Ray Leonard) 5. Joe Frazier (too bad he was in Ali's era) 6. Jack Dempsey (long count ************************) 7. George Foreman (Listonx20, with weaker chin) 8. Larry Holmes (style would have worked in any era) 9. Ken Norton (peek-a-boo style difficult to beat) 10. Holyfield (the ultimate warrior) In conclusion, an extremely difficult list to make.