Yes i know. The problem is i don’t rate much pre world war player that much. If some one says meazza better than baggio no problem there at all. In fact i haven’t watched much of Meazza footage.
I've seen reference to Giussepe Brera thinking of Baggio as even better than Meazza (or a more 'pure joy'), although had previously been aware of just that he found them comparable (already in Baggio's days at Fiorentina IIRC). Brera seemed to rate them both as better than Rivera, but he was infamously a bit harsh on him I know. Fantasista Legends: Roberto Baggio | fantasista 10 There is reference to Meazza himself praising Rivera's qualities on here (not surprising he would of course, and he didn't go so far as to put him in his all-time XI in 1966 for example, though that was in an attacking WM with Eusebio and Pele as inside forwards anyway): Gianni Rivera: the greatest playmaker in AC Milan history (thesefootballtimes.co) These pages seem to give contradictory views on who Brera considered better out of Baggio and Meazza: the Meazza view could be from a long time ago in theory (pre Pele for example? or not?), while I don't know of any specific quote myself re: calling Baggio better Roberto Baggio - football icon | Italy On This Day Greatest Italian Soccer Players | Famous Soccer Players from Italy | Pantheon On second glance I'm not sure how trustworthy that bottom link will be in general anyway (looking at Cesare Maldini as number 2, and him being called the second most famous Italian player for example....)
It would be interesting to see how both Maradona and Pele would play together. I think they have a bit incompatible playing styles. Both like ball in their feet and bringing teammates into play rather than attacking space themselfs. Also this team seems to lack any width and penetrating runners. Even Van Basten, who would be forced to be a mere penalty box player in this squad with Pele and Maradona, likes to play the ball rather than space. And having Puyol at the right fullback would even more pronounce the weakness. I guess functionality is not the name of the game but it is rather just an interesting XI, but I dont think this would be a particularly functional team, although, with the talent in the team, it would definitely be great. Substituting players from the same era in the case of, let's say, Maicon instead of Puyol and Eusebio vs Pele would make this team functionally better imo
Thanks, for me is important the balance of tactic, especially in the midfield. Subs: P. Schmeichel, Ruud Krol, Djalma Santos, Rijkaard, Vieira, Garrincha, Sindelar.
Interesting XI Rules: Use minimum 1 and maximum 2 players per decade from 50s onwards (50s, 60s, 70s,.. 10s) The goal is to maximize functionality of a team. Note: player doesnt need to have a sustained greatness throughout whole decade, but only peak is considered. If peak is in the decade, even for a singl season, it counts An example: Neuer Cafu Beckenbauer Baresi Maldini Makelele Didi Platini Pele Puskas Ronaldo Neuer 10s Cafu 00s Beckenbauer 70s Baresi 80s Maldini 90s Makelele 00s Didi 50s Platini 80s Pele 60s Puskas 50s Ronaldo 90s Will try to do my actual XI eventually..
Thanks for your interesting opinion !! I put Maradona behind Pelè and Van Basten because I think he can throw the ball to them in a spectacular way, and certainly Pelè and Van Basten would be able to play passing the ball to each other because they love the ball. As full backs I didn't choose Maicon, Cafu or Roberto Carlos because they could unbalance the tactic, finally for me the crosses are not needed in this team.
Ok, i understand, i try! GK: Lev Jascin (60's) DF: Carlos Alberto (70's) - B. Moore (60's) - G. Scirea (80's) - R. Krol (70's) MF defensive: Obdulio Varela (50's) - A. Pirlo (10's) - J. Bozsik (50's) MF attacking: Zidane (00's) - Maradona (80's) FW: M. Van Basten (90's)
I'll give it a go. I do think maybe (even though I'm not selecting it in this attempt - EDIT I guess I'm not anyway when I settle on and add my attempt to the thread) the Scirea-Moore partnership can work by the way (even though at first glance it can seem questionable for optimum functionality perhaps, with both being ball players and neither being very quick....but for sure two ball-playing centre backs has worked well before i.e Lawrenson/Hansen or Battiston/Bossis, and as well Scirea is more of a sweeper who actually was decent in the air too, and Moore was a converted half-back who didn't tend to be the final defender in the team but nevertheless the one who often brought the ball forwards from defence and made good forward passes - I guess they would take it in turns to advance in theory and Varela would potentially fill in in such a team). Not to take sides about whether Migueli's original team was functional as such - I see the points of question although I think as the front 3 are all quick (at prime) then they can interchange and take turns to make runs in behind and wide in theory (though overall surely Van Basten would act most like a target player to play longer balls to out of the 3 - the ball control of the other two also making them legitimate targets for accurate longer balls even so though of course too). Puyol (who probably splits opinions in general) and Thuram is potentially a hard right side to pass, or certainly a committed one in terms of competitiveness (I guess it could even have been the other way round with Thuram at right back) so maybe that was part of a tactical ploy in some respect, with the pure class added on the left side of the defence. I'll try my team (by the rules laid out) in a while. EDIT - I guess the passing of Bozsik and Ocwirk would make pretty optimal use of the front 3 he had too in that original line-up (but there's always some give and take with functionality - I suppose there are better options than them from a physical and/or defensive point of view for example even though both did play from deep positions generally - of course I'm going on limited viewing as well as general info about them).
Lev Yashin (50s); Carlos Alberto (60s or 70s), Alessandro Nesta (00s), Franco Baresi (80s), Paolo Maldini (90s); Jozsef Bozsik (50s), Patrick Vieira (00s); Lionel Messi (10s), Pele (60s), Johan Cruyff (70s); Marco van Basten (80s) 2 from 50s (Yashin, Bozsik). 2 from 60s (if including Carlos Alberto, plus Pele). 1 (or 2?) from 70s (Cruyff). 2 from 80s (Baresi, Van Basten). 1 from 90s (Maldini). 2 from 00s (Nesta, Vieira). 1 from 10s (Messi). A (solid) playmaker with a (skilled) physical presence in midfield, behind 3 who could rotate behind Van Basten, while Cruyff can drop deeper too. Baresi acting somewhat as a libero, but probably in a flat back 4. Back-up choice: Gordon Banks (60s); Maicon (10s), Fabio Cannavaro (00s), Franz Beckenbauer (70s), Silvio Marzolini (60s); Johan Neeskens (70s), Ernst Ocwirk (50s); Tom Finney (50s), Diego Maradona (80s), Michael Laudrup (90s); Ronaldo Nazario (90s) 2 from 50s (Ocwirk, Finney). 2 from 60s (Banks, Marzolini). 2 from 70s (Beckenbauer, Neeskens). 1 from 80s (Maradona). 2 from 90s (Laudrup, Ronaldo). 1 from 00s (Cannavaro). 1 from 10s (Maicon). Again a 4-2-3-1 with a similar midfield (but the more all-action player to the right and playmaker to the left this time), and three who can rotate behind Ronaldo while looking to supply him with through balls and passes to make use of. Cannavaro as main centre back, while Beckenbauer acts as play instigator, but also has pace to help his partner out at times. Neeskens can offer an extra goal option, breaking into the box at times.
I will do my first draft but just to clarify, by the point about functionality I meant creating the best possible XI not by just selecting the best players for each position under criteria, but to consider how team would function as a team in terms of abilities and perhaps even in terms of personality, but that is less tangible. Team: Yashin (60s) Cafu (00s) Beckenbauer (70s) Baresi (80s) Maldini (90s) Rijkaard (90s) Falcao (80s) Messi (10s) Di Stefano (50s) Cristiano (10s) Muller (70s) Thought process: Ive began with the best players in history: Pele, Messi, Maradona and trying to make them work somehow. Imo all 3 have some similar characteristics like playing the ball and operating in attacking mid position so it seems to me that they are incompatible to play together without severly compromising someone's strengths or overall team balance. So Ive started with Pele and building team around him, but quickly I found a problem in employing Pele as #10 for tactical reasons. I think #10, if employed, should have some defensive responsibilities, which is why classicla number #10 is extinct in modern football. Now, Ive could of sacrificed a bit of tactical balance for the sake of employing Pele, like many teams do and work just fine, but a guidence that I decided to adhere to is not making much if any tactical sacrifices for the sake of not creatinf any imbalance in functionality (unlike some teams do at times). Reason for that is very simple. Unlike clubs and nations who are severely restricted in terms of selection pool and often are forced to make sacrifices and suboptimal tactical systems, I have at disposal all the best players since 50s, so it seems logical to perhaps choose a bit worse player overall, but with more compatible strengths. That marked the end of using either Pele, Messi or Maradona as #10.. In that light, Ive decided to use inherently very balanced and versatile systems and fornations. So no tiki takas, defensive lines with 3 defenders, diamond middle, etc. Imo, most balanced formations are either 4-1-2-3 or 4-2-3-1.. given an enormous amount of talent in attacking mid area, Ive decided to use 4-2-3-1, but not to go with any of 3 above for #10 role. So I thought about using Pele as #9, but it just doesnt feel right. Having Pele as a striker misuses his strengths and makes it impossible to choose a proper striker. I do like having a proper penalty box player and goalscorer in a balanced team. Although I am sure Pele could do it very well, it would still be suboptimal for him. Similarly for Maradona, #10 is off, #8 is definitely off because it would destabilize defensive balance in a midfield. He could potentialy be used as a right winger with a freedom to room around but then Ive decided to go with Messi who I know could do exactly that better than Maradona so i went with Messi there. (Think of 2015-ish Messi). Messi is ball heavy player who likes to roam towards the middle and arrive late in the box so in that sense using Cristiano as a left winger seemed very fitting. They have indeed compatible strengths in attack. Cristiano likes to stick to the wing (2012-ish Ronaldo) and be present in penalty box at the end of the crosses, etc. He is also fast and runs into space. It feels like perfect fit and a core of the team. I am satisfied with that. So ive build team from there onwards. To counteract attacking nature of Cristiano and Messi, Ive decided to use an attacking mid who is very complete and would contribute defensively while being able to playmake and Di Stefano feels like a great choice for that unlike Platini or Zidane or even Cruyff, etc. Also i think midfield two needs to be very strong in duels and have some phyiscal presence to additionally counteract Messi - Cristiano duo so ive went for strong midfielders from different eras rather than Xavi, Pirlo and similar type of players... Rijkaard and Falcao came to mind so ive gone with them although this is something i would have to think through even more... Lastly for now, i thought about having a pacy striker to fit with playmaking abilities of Messi and Di Stefano, but to not collide with Cristiano too much in terms of scoring goals because he would surely be the guy who would wanted to score as much as possible. Ronaldo Nazario is a bit too individualistic imo and would kind disturb the balance. Ive considered few more strikers but ended up with Gerd because i think his presence in penalty box would not collide with Cristiano, he has a great acceleration and movement off the ball behind defenders (Messi would love that), but also has team mentality and can link up with Messi and Di Stefano.. So in terms of attacking that is about it. I think this squad has a presence in penalty box (poaching would be no problem), has an aerial threat, pace, potential for link up... it seems very balanced attack. Other players are chosen with not so much thought, but this is a first draft..
Yes, understood and I was trying to adhere to that, although it's a difficult balance to strike maybe (because the best players are likely to be candidates for such a team). I think I erred towards fluidity and ability in the 3 behind the striker for example in my examples, but could have erred more towards a set shape and game style (with more definition in those roles and less roving envisaged) and optimising the characteristics for each of the roles. But fluidity is also a plus for functionality if it works well of course (especially if thinking the majority of the defensive play can be carried out by the players behind I suppose and for example there isn't a requirement for reliable covering of full-backs by the the wider attackers).
The defensive line seems very well balanced with an CB duo with an stopper in Baresi and a build up CB in Beckenbauer. There's also the fullback combo of an defensive minded fullback in Maldini and an attacking minded fullback in Cafu. Goalkeeper is a matter of taste but I think I would put Neuer over Yashin since we have so little footage and data for him. (not long ago you said something about this referring to Didi) I think a balanced double pivot in the 4-2-3-1 consists of a box to box and a deep-lying playmaker and we have several examples of this (Kimmich and Goretzka, Kanté and Jorginho, Xabi Alonso and Khedira, Scholes and Roy Keane, Didi and Zito, etc...). In that sense I would choose Matthaus for the box to box role and Pirlo for the deep-lying playmaker role. The attacking quartet is simply impeccable for the reasons you explained. I agree 100%
Actually, getting the right attacking fluidity might successfully counteract a lack of balance in a sense that a trade off of defensive stability can be compensated and then some more by ridiculously good attacking chemistry (having a strategy to score more than concede) so that is quite feasible and it makes sense. Could Messi, Pele and Cruyff do that is up for a debate, but they are so talented and versatile that likely that would be the case. That is a valid strategy. I guess I am quite defensive minded in that regard, but it would be interesting if fluidity and, i would call it, creativity, were strategy to go with it. Perhaps attacking 4 of: Messi Maradona Cruyff Pele Would be incredibly successful lineup if paired with two strong, physically capable ball winning and holding midfielders. Balance would be off, but team might score more than they concede because you have 4 geniuses up front combining. Idk. I am defensive minded tho. Solid behind and efficient when attacking. I would generally go with Neuer as he is a complete, modern gk at his peak, but ive already used 2 players from 10s so it doesnt comply to criteria of the game mentioned above. And i would not sacrifice Cristiano and Messi in this case to make a room for Neuer when there are arguably similar if not better gks from different decades. I would have to think and learn more about each to figure out how would Beckenbauer and Baresi combine but in theory, yeah, two arguably the best centre backs of all time of two different, common roles for centre backs. It sounds right.. things would get even more interesting if convo goes beyond football and into personality assesment.. I am pretty okay with Maldini at the left back especially with Cristiano in front of him. I dont see what could go wrong there. Cafu is a bit different story. Although he is great, I am not sure how would he combine with Messi (and Rijkaard on that side). So what i will consider further are those triangles (Maldini, Falcao, Cristiano and Cafu, Rijkaard, Messi). They are close to each other and it is a paramount they work well together. For example, Cristiano doesnt need player that will overlap so much, unlike Messi so fullbacks in that sense are very important, as well as midfielders on each side. (Think of how well it works for Argentina when De Paul supports Messi in Argentina and how Banega wasnt so well paired with Messi). All these players are sort of a support to attacking line up and should gel seemlessly with them. All that with having in mind using players from all decades. On Didi, my point is about uncertainty. I am not certain about these things but it is fun to imagine and play around. Matthaus scored a lot as far as I know and what i was looking for in this team and context is less of goalscoring abilities from midfield (because i think is unnecessary in that front 4), but more of physical presence and stability in terms of support role as well as potentially some long balls and creativity (without strong emphasis on it). Some examples you gave are also from 10s (decade) so they are ineligible with Cristiano and Messi. Pirlo is not known for ball winning, duels and tireless running so he doesnt fit the context of team imo. He would bring more liability and would need to be covered up (just like he was in Milan and Juventus with Seedorf, Ambrosini, Pogba, Marchisio, etc.) The midfield 2 in this team needs to run a lot, be extremely tactically intelligent and versatile to complement attackers bad habits and styles.
It's true that Matthaus shots a lot from outside the box and wouldn't have that need with this attacking quartet. But Matthaus is the embodiment of box to box imo. The fact of having a quartet of this level up front would only mean that Matthaus could focus more on defensive responsibilities, passing and the offensive transition. He's perfect for that job. The examples I gave were just to exemplify the type of midfield duo I was referring to with a box to box and a deep-lying playmaker. I wasn't suggesting these players for the XI I arrived here suddenly and didn't know there were only two players per decade. In this case, I think Boszik would fit alongside Matthaus as a deep-lying playmaker
Buffon (00s) Cafu (00s) - Beckenbauer (70s) - Baresi (80s) - Maldini (90s) Matthaus (90s) - Boszik (50s) Messi (10s) - Di Stefano (50s) - Ronaldo (10s) Gerd Müller (70s)
Good read that. The idea behind it is always more interesting than the actual lineup. I did something similar in the all-time XI thread. Funnily enough, I can almost perfectly recreate my all-time team with these rules!
I am on the opposite end. I wouldn't hesitate to make Pele my false 9 because there isn't many players I can think of who can play there and bring the best out of all the other attacking talents I would also want to fit into the team. In your team, for example, I think Pele as a false 9 fits Ronaldo and Messi better than Muller. You want the type of forward who would roam around to open up space for Ronaldo to attack as well as combine with Messi. While it is probably true that Pele as the false 9 isn't as good as Pele as the no.10, but I think the net effect is more positive.
On this note, I think an interesting approach would be to pick like 2000s Ronaldo (say 07/08) to play as right forward. Push Messi up to the false 9 role where he is proven. Then you can bring Pele into the left forward role, which is where I think he would play in the modern game. Another player I think would lead the line very well in such a scenario would be someone like Thierry Henry or MvB.
Yes, I am possibly a bit more 'idealistic' on the scale, possibly unless I had stupidly put significant money on a game and then I might prefer more solidity lol (even though if the skilled players playing freely strategy was truly the best then it should have the best outcome in theory)! By the way, I thought the same was as Isaias about pairing a playmaker with a box to box player in midfield, as my teams illustrated, but I do think a Falcao-Rijkaard partnership does pretty much do that because I think Falcao was more an orchestrator than a combative player, more a technician than a physically gifted player (but yeah he could probably form a more solid base than a Didi or Pirlo for example still and be a bit more of an 'all round' midfield player I think, which is maybe why some people pick him in All-Time Brazil line-ups rather than Didi for example too).
You miss 60s Completely agree. It's fun to think about as well. To bring the best out of Ronaldo he needs few things imo: Presence of a proper striker who can link up with him and be at the end of his crosses (Benzema = Muller, preferably few more runners into penalty box from deep, Di Stefano, Rijkaard) A through-ball machine in central-ish position that will will find him in spaces to utilize his dribbling, Di Maria, Ozil = Messi, Di Stefano(?)) A great crosser from the opposite or even left wing, Carvajal, Marcelo, Modrić = Cafu, Maldini, Xavi (i've put Xavi in a second draft))... Also I think Maldini is better fit than Marcelo for his defensive abilities to cover Cristiano's forward movements. This is my new draft: I've swaped Falcao for Xavi (00s) and swaped position of two central midfielders so that ball-playing midfielder is on the right side (a right half space).. Thought process: I've started putting my line up on the pitch trying to figure out how would they position on the pitch and it became more and more obvious that right, central midfielder needs to be someone who can keep and recycle possesion and move the ball forward via passing. As it can be seen, Xavi is sourranded by 6, 7 players in a circle. I think I was a bit too conservative in an idea that there needs to be a pair of two somewhat, physical imposing central midfielders and it felt like team needs something more specific in posession when facing a solid, organized opposition (something Isaias has pointed out with box to box and deep-lying playmaker comment). After all, Beckenbauer, Baresi, Maldini, Rijkaard is more than enough to win aerial duels and bring that physicality in if needed against long balls and similar situations. I am not getting such a vibe from Falcao for this role seeing one of his videos, although I could be wrong, and this right, central midfielder that is comfortable on the ball in posession and can progress ball forward via passing felt too tempting to not use Xavi. This position and role seems like a bread and butter for Xavi. He made a living and legacy doing that so I've decided to put him in. Few names can be considered here like Tigana, Didi, Veron, Pirlo, Scholes, etc.. probably plenty older players that I don't know much about... Bozsik? but I know Xavi would do a great job. On Pele as a false nine in this context. I don't think he fulfills Benzema-like role that much and in that sense wouldn't bring the best out of Cristiano, but I am starting to reconsider Di Stefano as #10 and maybe after all just go for a better player there, Pele. I watched this performance by Di Stefano and I am not sure if I would get what I initially thought I would with him: and Di Stefano after all could actually collide with Messi's style as well with his attacking.oriented ball carrying, so why not just go for Pele after all. Also lessthanjake made a great thread and posted some amazing footage on Muller and his link up play which debunks the idea that he was merely a penalty box player and actually had a strong link up play for a striker. So i think he is an improved version of Benzema almost all around. But here you've mentioned a player I've completely forgot about which is Henry. Henry is an interesting choice for a striker here. I think he doesn't quite fulfill Benzema's role and in that sense wouldn't get as much from Cristiano like Muller, but Henry imo brings some interesting qualities that Muller doesn't. He brings a bit of individuality therefore less dependence on a team structure with extreme pace and ability to roam to wide areas and operate there (similar to Ronaldo Nazario minus selfishness).. interesting. Give it a try yourself as well. Few more comments on a tactical setup: First and foremost, Messi operates in his are with his own freedom like in 2015 and I would put Ronaldo as wide as possible and try to utilize his athleticism to carry the ball long distances for either a shot or cross wiht left foot and to offer penetrating runs on the flank (it is actually more like 2010 Ronaldo in Real. He wouldn't score as much as in subsequent seasons but would bring extreme value as a proper winger and secondly offer penalty box presence rather the other way around which he did in later years. His positioning and role would be somewhat like Martinelli (or Doku-ish) in Arsenal these days. When having a left winger who starts so wide, left back naturally doesn't do it as much and Maldini here wouldn't be quite utilized the same way as in his peak with those runs on the flank, but more like Zinchenko in combination with Martinelli, or even better example for him is these hybrid role that Gvardiol is playing for City. I think that would be a perfect role for him in modern days excluding left wing-back. Messi goes inside with and without the ball which offers space on the right wing, plus Messi's one real weakness is crossing, especially with right foot, so it is key to find a attacking-oriented right fullback who can go up and down the pitch whole match, has very good skills on the ball, makes intelligent runs off the ball and has a great crossing. Cafu would be excellent, but maybe there is someone better since 50s for that specifically. As Cafu is more attacking oriented fullback of the two, Maldini would in some scenarios form a defensive line of three, which is something that basically every great team does today for the fluidity of formation. Also Maldini would usually just need to offer passing options and stability in possesion not expected to do anything more creative so that works very well. Baresi would be a player that covers any mistakes and stays back at all times which I know limits some of his strengths going forward, but that is what position and role requires. He is phenomenal at recovering tho so he would be great. Maybe there is someone like Gentile, Scirea, Nesta, Koeman, or someone in history of football who might due that better.. Beckenbauer would have some freedom to move forward with Matip-like, Pique-like, Bartra-like runs in which case Xavi would cover him up for a moment, which he would do at times in his career. Also Rijkaard, Di Stefano could sometimes swap their position so Di Stefano offers more stability in posession (if he is even better at that than Rijkaard) and RIjkaard would make these runs from the deep which he can do: Rijkaard would really be a supporting player that does a bit of everything, everywhere. Arsenal analogy would be Rice, but just much better imo. To not spam further, these are few thoughts.
Maybe Platini would be great for that #10 role and Zidane. That would be interesting. Perhaps even better than Pele! Someone like Kopa as well.. also I thought about Luis Suarez instead of Xavi. It might be necessary to comply to criteria of the game
I was a bit too conservative as well. There needs to be a balance between risk and conservativness. I think my new team strikes the balance better, maybe even more with Zidane/Platini instead of Di Stefano. Yeah, box to box and deep-lying playmaker is a standard paring and for a reason. I've adjusted to that with my new team.