Best football players of all time

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by stcv1974, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    What do you mean with that? :unsure: Three titles with Brugge as the main man and captain is worse than three titles with Anderlecht? Where Scifo was good but not necessarily the man.
     
  2. wm442433

    wm442433 Member

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Also, he won 0 league titles during Scifo's time (Scifo won 3 in 4 seasons).

    I don't know how it works, but perhaps the coefficient of the Belgian league was inflated due to the good runs of Brugge in the late 70s (when Ceulemans was still at Lierse). In addition to the results of Anderlecht fromthe 70s to the mid-80s (until they sold Scifo in Italy, and a bit before let Vercauteren sign a last contract with Nantes). Not to forget Standard '82 in the Cup winners Cup although it's more marginal.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Scifo was in most of those seasons not the driving player though. Case in point: the 1986 title deciders against Brugge. The middle of those three Anderlecht championships.

    Both teams finished level on points and two extra games decided the championship. Scifo was a good player but not the one who made them (imho).

    https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eerste_klasse_1985-86_(voetbal_België)

    That means it was inflated? The bottom half of the league was arguably 'weak' but multiple different teams won points in Europe and had good runs. That led to a top five position until the mid-90s.

    'Inflated' are those forced downgrades the UEFA did, like the 1973 downgrade of the Eredivisie.
     
  4. wm442433

    wm442433 Member

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    I mean it's not the same financial means and squad quality. And quality of play.
    Brugge, it's more the labour when Anderlecht concentrates more talents. They'e both at the image of their clubs in that regard.
    Meanwhile Scifo was a bit apart even in his own country and club because of his origins (he was naturalized Belgian for the Euro 84 even if born in Belgium, he was Italian), had unique playing style (there was no other "fantasistas" like this in Belgian football historically) and had a different way to be too, a different culture in sum. He was not always well seen for all of that and for his style of play wich could lead to some average performances at times if well-marked and not on his day. Ceulemans on the other hand has that advantage to be 100% Belgian (Flemish), 100% Club Brugge (coming from Lierse SK) and that style of play of working-class hero (with a physical force coming directly from the north) with much commitment when the Italian golden boy and innate talent Scifo, in addition to be different by his origins could appear to be the kind of player who doesn't make any efforts (defensively for example), relying only on his natural gifts. If Ceulemans looses a match, doesn't really have a good match it can be : "at least, he has made a lot of efforts". If it's Scifo it's : "oh that little pretentious...". Anderlecht is supposed to dominate and its players to always deliver too. At the scale of Belgium it's like Real Madrid in Spain.

    Some people were just waiting for one thing, to see Scifo struggling I think.
    As for his own words, he talks of "jealousy", very conscious of his talent that he likes to assert but also avoiding to talk about any problem that could be related to his origins.

    In some regards, a parallel could be made between Scifo in Belgium and Hoddle in England. in that sense that there was some "misunderstandings" as it is often summed-up.
    But in '90, I think that Scifo definitively shown his mental strenght by assuming perfectly to be the central player of the NT, at the World Cup, in Italy, as wanted and assumed by Guy Thys. Scifo was then 24 years old. We tend to forget that he was only 21 years old when he left Anderlecht to Inter, maybe because he was around since already a good time. 18 at the Euro 84 after his first season in the elite.
     
  5. wm442433

    wm442433 Member

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    #1605 wm442433, Dec 7, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
    Yes it's true but nobody would have bet money on Brugge being an European Cup finalist I guess, that's what I mean.
     
  6. wm442433

    wm442433 Member

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    +1 vote for Scifo with Claude Barzotti (real name Francesco Barzotti) : https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9uagl

    0:35 : "As for me, I think that Scifo was the best in Belgium".

    Much Belgian singers were "wops". Scifo's uncle was a guitarist.

    [​IMG]

    He's one of the Scifo's best friends.
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    It's more like that Ceulemans had six times 20 goals in a season (sometimes as forward, sometimes in a 4-4-2 midfield), at his peak in 1980 even 30+ goals, while Scifo didn't. Scifo was never above 15 goals.

    Now goals are not everything but combined with the rest there is the picture he was a more influential player.

    Some examples from the tournaments:

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqx7f9

    10:50 - that is a well taken goal. Also a decent pass at 17:30 I see.

    Counter-attack in 1982 sending them through to the next round.
     
  8. wm442433

    wm442433 Member

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Scifo has the stats of goals of a Zidane.
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  9. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    France editors choosing cantona over kopa ??? WoW its not something i would do also i wonder why and how ? Talent ? Nah. Achievements ? Nah

    England the absense of finney is strange to say the least.
    Finney may have been a better player then Matthews. Matthews was the better right winger but finney was more complete (2 footed) so could play both wings.
    Finney also was a way better goalscorer then stanly Matthews

    Lastly the problem i have with public polls is this : the longer time ago a player played the more he is forgotten so in polls (especially if lots if young people vote) many a times the “younger” players are over representend.
     
  10. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    I always thought that David Ginola was more talented than Cantona and certainly more likeable :)
     
  11. Alessandro10

    Alessandro10 Member

    Dec 6, 2010
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Both great players, but very different. One was a winger, one was a forward/striker. They were both gifted.
     
    TitoTata repped this.
  12. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    That said .. Ginola was far more than just a winger ..

    He played the same position (a lot of the time ) as Zidane or Ronaldinho and scored many marvellous long range shots outside the box .. he was completely two footed as well
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Last month I received the 1974 Ballon d'Or (already posted 1971, 1973, 1976). Make of it what you want.

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    Can only post 10 pictures and there is one more to go...
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This was the write-up:

    [​IMG]

    As shown before, at the end of 1971 he was already compared to Pele and Di Stefano in a few of their texts in the relevant issue.

    [​IMG]

    At the same time, the English voter had him never on top (except 1969), the West German voter had him never on top. The big nations bias?
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    What you can say, I think, is that like Soren Lerby the consistency of Ceulemans his passing could be variable. He had his high level matches where it was 'on' but also those with variable success (De Bruyne has also this trait to some extent).

    @PDG1978 made once a compilation with Dalglish I think.



    Here a very nice pass at 3:10 and also right at the beginning of the video

     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This is really emblematic for 'the cartel' history writing



    The truth is rather more prosaic

    1. There wasn't a state system like the Russians or Germans had in football. To organize it internally and protect it externally. The same state system also eavesdropped opponents on their soil, and no, that is not a conspiracy theory but a hard fact.

    2. None of that stuff like amphetamines was anything new. Manchester United and Brazil already used it in the 1950s. Rather than being at the forefront, it was a laggard, with the teams making up lost ground.

    3. Certain countries had quite an influence in the relevant authorities (for example: a fixed seat at the FIFA ExCom). Netherlands isn't one of them. As a result, Netherlands has only one recipient of the FIFA order of Merit while others have a dozen of those.

    If there is a country that is good because of drugs (and protecting the ground) it is rather Germany/Russia instead of Holland.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Source here.

    Collectively not taking medicines against the fever and cold because it gives problems during controls (1974 WC), with Scottish players etc. send home.

    https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010619680:mpeg21:a0266
    https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:011016990:mpeg21:a0038

    vs.

    In cahoots and high fives with the FIFA et al.

    New York Times
    Nick Harris on Russia
     

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