thanks so much for your understanding! (not many could take my ... frankliness) However I do rate CR7 now in TOP20-35 best all times already also I do rate him in my top 25 FK all times ( note Not many could have scored 50+ FKs like CR7 now, and ... he still plays ... he would have chance to move up higher closer to TOP10)
I've seen many of your posts, you call it how you see it and I respect that. You compliment both Ronaldo and Messi when its due. I have Ronaldo top 20, maybe 15, two or three more years at this pace and top ten. Throw in a Euro '16 (lol, ya right)..And he's top 5 for me.
Playing both with a potential career ending injury... How about his 16 other goals in the competition? Euro 2004 he was named Best XI at 18...Simmer down hun....
my point is for die hard fan of cristiano ronaldo, you should not attack other star players for being not scored as many goals as cronaldo, when the player that you defend actually had too many flaws also
LMAO you are as irrational as you are rude. Dude, almost every celebrity is widely viewed as arrogant, narcissistic, self serving, and disingenuine -- Beyonce Knowles is all of that, and then some; do you think it makes any difference when the media wants to talk about her and show you her picture? Why did David Beckham made more than Messi and CR7 put together? Because he was a huge marketing asset due to his appearance, not because he was particularly appealing as a football player. Did Ronaldinho made anything close to what David Beckham earned from "outside the pitch" related business? No. But guess what -- Ronaldinho was extremely likeable, when he smiled people smiles with him -- why did Beckham still beat the shit out of Ronaldinho when it came to media publicity/money? Because the world is obsessed with sex and with appearance, two areas where Ronaldinho had nothing to offer. Do you honestly not understand how "marketing" works and how the media works? If so, your education failed you sir, clearly. So providing an amazing assist is the same as "deferring to teammates"? Yep, your education definitely failed you -- you better go back to your PS4 console and play some more FIFA, because you clearly have no idea about how football works in real life. Again, your logic does not make any sense. Spain 2010 scored only a few goals, and yet won the World Cup. Chelsea 2011/2012 scored very few goals, and yet won the Champions League. Football is not a "game of goals", Football is a game of Chess, and the team who "outplays" the others tends to win, whereas the team who "outscores" the others tends to get little in return. Also, it is comedy gold how a CR7 fan wants to talk about how Messi disappointed in the knockout rounds? I mean, did you by any chance not watched how ridiculously bad CR7 was at the World Cup 2010 and World Cup 2014? Why is CR7 consistently shit in big tournaments such as the Euro and the World Cup? There is absolutely no objective way you can argue that "passes" are for the most part less useful than scoring hat tricks -- again, what does CR7 have to show for all the goals he has scored in the last five seasons? One La Liga and one Champions League? Andres Iniesta between 2008/2013 has one World Cup, two Euros, two Champions Leagues, and four La Liga titles, and he scored how many goals per season? Andrea Pirlo between 2002 and 2007 (five years just like CR7 from 2009 to 2014) won the World Cup, and also won the Champions League twice, in addition to one Serie A title. The team that won the 2006 World Cup, did not have a great striker -- Pirlo, Buffon, and Cannavaro, were the main players for Italy. CR7 between 2009 and 2014 -- flopped at the 2010 World Cup, flopped again at the 2012 Euro, flopped again at the 2014 World Cup, and at club level, managed to win one La Liga and one Champions League. Your argument is ludicrous. And what about CR7 and Real Madrid's start to the season? Real Madrid has lost games they were supposed to win comfortably, Barcelona sits in 2nd place, how did CR7 scoring goals prevented Real Madrid from being in 7th place less than eleven days ago? How does CR7 scoring all his goals change the fact that Valencia, Barcelona, Sevilla, and Atletico Madrid, are all better placed than Real Madrid? You seriously want to act like a 0-0 draw on an away game is conclusive indication of something? Complete nonsense, as usual. Ronaldo scores 4 and... of course... Valencia, Barcelona, Sevilla, Atletico Madrid, are all better placed than Real Madrid is at this point -- there is my argument staring at me in the face, the results are clear: Real Madrid is in 5th place, Real Madrid is not in 1st place, as has been the case for the last five years in which Real Madrid only managed to win one La Liga out of five. There are literally sh1tloads of players who can score 20+ open play goals per season added to 15+ penalty kicks per season. Luis Suarez is one of them; Pedro is not one of them; Benzema is another one who could get those figures if CR7 didn't get to shot every single penalty kick. Barcelona has been playing without a world class striker for the last two seasons now, the lack of goals is in large part the result of Messi being the only world class goal scoring threat in Barcelona. As soon as Luis Suarez starts playing, Messi's passing will be all the more valuable for the team, not to mention, that with Luis Suarez getting the type of attention that he forces from opponents, Messi will find more openings to score himself. How many players in the world can score 55 goals? I don't give a shit. Football is not about who scores the most goals, Football is about who is the best team.
I'm just wondering why he would do that if he's capable of being a great playmaker/creator/assister though? Isn't it better in those situations to dribble and/or lay off to a free team-mate (the opposition can't have several defenders surrounding one player without someone else being free).
Maybe that is a relevant point concerning why he doesn't do the same at NT level in big tournaments too I feel (as well as the team quality in comparison to opposition argument). He is one of the most effective scorers when he has plenty of chances (or half chances) and can find space to operate in either on the break or due to his team overwhelming the opposition. He can also make his own space at times to be fair, like when he cut inside and scored vs Man City in the Champions League as an example. But I don't think he is close to being one of the best crafters of openings (although in this years World Cup he did provide some chances in the final 3rd to be fair and can do that pretty well when he chooses that option). 30-40 yards from goal with a well set defence and he doesn't tend to be the best at opening up the defence either on his own or in combinations with team-mates.
Are you sure you are still discussing the same topic as it seems now this is turning into Barca vs. Madrid? Misguided rant in the wrong forum perhaps. The CR flopped at Euro 2012 is putting it mildly...ludicrous but at least it is accepted in this forum. Football is not a "game of goals", Football is a game of Chess, and the team who "outplays" the others tends to win, whereas the team who "outscores" the others tends to get little in return. This is classic shit right here, I am trying to understand it so that I can also rep you like others here for making such sense. Perhaps I need to read this with a joint
Firstly, You need to stop with this scoring 15 penalties a year nonsense. The most he ever scored was 12 and he scored 60 total that season so 48 without them. 7 or 8 is more typical. And penalties still have to be converted, he is around 94%. Messi I believe is around 82-85%. If he were not great at them he wouldn't be taking them. So again, another skill Ronaldo is masterful with. He put himself in position to be the taker every year while playing with other players who are also capable, by being even better. You just keep talking in circles and moving the goal posts..... You claim Messi is not more marketable than Ronaldo because of Ronaldo's sex appeal over Messi. I prove that Messi is more marketable and you start arguing why that is....lol...That's my point, he is so loved people want to see his pale, short, autism looking self in his underwear. Ronaldo the villain and Messi the hero has been the constant narrative. That has greatly effected the way in which the players are portrayed. Even Blatter played right into it publicly. I'm using arrogant, self serving and narcissistic in a footballing context. Ronalo is viewed as only caring about himself, scoring, winning personal accolades and being selfish. Messi is considered the unselfish "team player" unmotivated by "personal glory." You really don't think this majorly contributes to public perception? There are examples of quite the opposite however, which you will never hear of from the pro Messi superfans called pundits. Now regarding assists. You keep saying AMAZING assists. Is every assist amazing? Some assists just occur by default by a player having played the last pass before a goal is scored. Some are indiscriminate passes to a general area. Some are just from a pass to avoid losing possession. In starke contrast. Every shot ever taken is intended to score goals. With every shot a player is directly in control of their actions. With a pass you are not directly in control. Creating a goal may not have been even the primary intention, it is the actions taken by the goal scorer that creates that pass being an assist. Many assists rely on multiple skills from the target, which without them a goal would have never occured. And most assists are just the OBVIOUS play that any professional would most often decide to execute, hence, "routine." Goals can be created without an assist, the opposite is impossible. And what you are overlooking is Ronaldo averages 13 assists a season. In 11-12 I believe, Messi had 18, Ronaldo 16. Pirlo that you used as an example contributes to 30-35 goals a year? Ronaldo 65-70? Not even the same hemisphere. @DazerII already dismantled your team trophy argument so I won't speak on it further. I will say however, Ozil and Meuller both won the World Cup. I think Meuller's 5 goals were slightly more impactful than Ozil's key passes. By the way, Ozil, Di Maria and Xabi only won one league title as well with Madrid. These are the players that are so much more valuable correct? Why then, did all their key passes, rhythm dictation and possession retention not lead to more titles? Isn't all the things they do what truly wins games? This is the exact same as you using Ronaldo's goals against him for not winning more.
The only time some points will make sense is if people will stop shifting the goal post for greatness without ever stating or giving out the framework that should be used to define greatness. I am saying this as I have seen people changing criteria on greatness depending to whether their favorite player would gain from this "defined criteria". On the basis of my observation from old Soccerpulse to BS forumists are more willing to understand points that understate CR's accomplishment relative to any other players. Simply put, assist from player X or Y carry more value than that of CR. Other things you need to understand is that no excuses can be used to try to explain any negative aspects regarding CR. E.g. It is acceptable that performance of other players can be negatively affected by injuries but you can never say CR played CL final and WC with injury. It is fine for other players to score penalties except you know who, there are many imaginary players who can score over 50 goals a season if they take 15 penalties a year....forget that probably the most Messi/CR got is about 8 in a season if I am not mistaken. You can never state the obvious fact that most of his shots at goal are speculative with little chance of resulting into goals because that will be turned into....you see he is poor. Even it it can be presented that he actually performs in big games to most those mean nothing. Di Maria to some is better than him....anyway so is plenty of other players from older generations who barely matched one of his worst season at Madrid. They are just better...maybe they have swag, run better, or something weird but that's what it is.
Human beings are incapable of being 100% objective. Therefore, your claim about "the framework that should be used to define greatness" is completely redundant as well as false -- football is a collective game in which the team that wins the most trophies more often than not is the team that best fulfills its tactical system; how could anyone possibly state or give out "the framework that should be used to define greatness" when the tactical system of each team is an entirely subjective thing that some people will like, that other people will dislike, and that other people will be indifferent to? Your argument about "the framework that should be used to define greatness" is extremely ridiculous, which does explain why you don't seem to understand simple logic. Lio Messi is criticized via the same identical arguments -- Zinedine Zidane is regarded as a better player than Messi by quite a lot of people in this forum, which should tell you the type of double standards that CR7/Messi/Iniesta are downgraded with. I don't know why you think that CR7 gets a special treatment when, as far as I've seen, just about every single modern player, be that CR7 or Messi or Iniesta or whomever has been relevant in the last 5 years of footbball, is downgraded via the same ridiculous double standards that are used to hype up the likes of Zidane/R9/Maradona, etc. Ok, CR7 played the Champions League Final with injury -- how does that change the fact that Real Madrid won a game in which CR7 was by far one of the worst performers? Would Barcelona had won any of their last two Champions League, if Xavi Hernandez had been one of the worst performers on the pitch in large part thanks to an injury? It is an extremely fair question/argument. I don't know why some people feel the need to spin that into "yeah but CR7 was injured" as if it changed anything about the fact that Real Madrid was good enough to win a Champions League Final in which CR7 was completely redundant. Can you offer concrete evidence that CR7 gets about 8 penalty kicks per season? That doesn't sound accurate to me, so actual evidence of that claim would be appreciated.
I agree and said its bad decision making. However I could understand why he may not necessarily trust Benzema, he has probably blown over 50 goals Ronaldo has created for him over the years. A lot of times he takes ill advised shots just to get himself into the game, when he's ignored for long periods its kinda his way of reminding his team he's there. Not speculation. I've followed his entire career. He does get frustrated and tries to make anything happen. Di Maria does this same thing. You have to remember as well that he gets on the end of alot of corners that were never going to go in but those contribute to his totals. He also shoots free kicks from distances most others send in a cross from, another factor. Messi for example, takes the corners and plays passes from long range free kicks. That's probably 40-50 shots from these two situations alone Ronaldo has. Then there are the open play shots from 25-30m which Messi never takes. He only shoots from just outside the box. Ronaldo hit the post 4 times in Euro '12. That is literally inches from scoring 7 goals. More than double the next player. Had those gone in would he really have played any better? He would be remembered for having an exceptional tournament yet he still produced those moments. History is deceptive in this way. This is the difference between James becoming a superstar overnight and staying a sub at Monaco. Would he be any less of a player if 4 of his 6 goals were off the post and he finished with 2? I guarantee he wouldn't be starting for Madrid if that would have been what took place. Even though he performed exactly the same. Ronaldo was just wide twice and a bobbled save by Valdez away from scoring a hat-trick in the first half of the 2009 Champion's League final. Had he scored them all and won his second Champion's League back to back he would have been considered a greater player. On paper, you see hat-trick in the final vs Barca, back to back titles etc.....It's all very romantic. Perhaps he'd even be favored to Messi today. I realize that these are the moments which traditionally define a players legacy but in reality these moments make them no less or greater of a player on the field week to week. When we have 600 games to judge a player it is preposterous to isolate a few moments here and there and give them significantly more weight. In tournaments things happen that are too detrimental to overcome in such a short period. Injuries, cards, bad form, coaching, luck, refereeing... Coentrao injured, Pepe red carded, Ronaldo playing hurt. These things tend to equal out over the long term but with 3 games needing to get enough points to advance? No way. Teams without that adversity are already at an overwhelming advantage. I said in another thread in games at this World Cup and I know of at least two in Euro '12 Ronaldo was the player with the least amount of touches of any player on either team. This happens often and not just in tournaments. He is rendered ineffective by his own team. That is astounding that this happens. Imagine Zidane having less touches than Lebeouf. So not only is he expected to play tremendously with horrible teammates, he is also supposed to do it without the ball. Give Ronaldo of today, Figo, Rui Costa, Carvalho, Pauleta, Thiago & Deco and Portugal would be a favorite for any tournament. This would give him the level of teammates Messi has in every tournament and on even ground with the big teams. Being generous, they are the epitome of average.
Look at you demanding sources..lmfao Why don't you produce a source stating Ronaldo scores 15 penalties a year? One doesn't exist because he's never scored that many. And Messi gets excuse after excuse for his bad play. There is always an out for him. Last April people were saying he still needs time from an injury he returned from in January. Look at you defending his not running anymore because he has some assists...lol...Now assists are more important than goals because he doesn't score like he used to. He got a pass on the Bayern 7-0 azz whooping cause "he was hurt." He got a pass on the Chelsea semi-final cause, "they parked the bus." He got a pass on the Athletico semi-final because "he's saving himself for the World Cup." Then he gets a pass on doing nothing in the World Cup knockout stage cause "he won the golden ball..." Ronaldo scored two goals and had an assist against Bayern in '12 contributing to all three goals Madrid scored over both legs. Neuer saved his penalty in the shootout. Messi did absolutely nothing vs Chelsea in both games and blew a penalty. People claimed Messi and Ronaldo's semi final were just equal because "they both missed penalties" That's how its been for six years now.
that is just an excuse riquelme always played great even he had almost 8-10 NOBODY teammates in his boca juniors, villarreal & argentinos juniors
Sorry Ronaldo didn't spend half of his career working his way up the food chain. I'm sure had he stayed at Sporting a few more years we never would have heard of him...... Do yourself a favor and read about Ronaldo vs United at 17 and the reaction and subsequent events that transpired.
for that I agree 100% with you. In general hitting the post is pure "unlucky" (Goal is 7.5m wide and the post/bar is barely 0.12m in width ) So they should be counted in FULL credits for CR7 in Euro 12 = his best performance in Euro (indeed he was in XI starter) Also agree that James Rodriguez was like a "new coming star" from 5games at WC (and 1 year in Ligue 1) which can not be comparable to Messi (5years) and CR7 (8years) in top fight!
@JamesBH11 I'm curious, how do you personally compare defenders to attackers when ranking players? Say Maldini vs Zidane.
I posted a response earlier but it was just ripped into your post. 1. Football is a collective game blah blah blah...wrong thread. This thread is all about individual performance unless if I misread the topic. You are excused though as most of the topics always ends up being hijacked for other topics. 2. How do you come to conclusion that my point of saying there is no framework for defining greatness is ridiculous? Or did you use your logic that scoring more than opponents offers little returns for the team. I can boldly tell you CR is criticized or valued way less than Messi in this forum, irrespective what others can say. Btw who exactly claims Zidane as a better player than Messi, and how did they end up comparing them, orange and apples IMO. Iniesta is irrelevant in this topic. Great dribbler with little end product except WC winning goal. CR was not the worst performer in the final and all publications can attest to this and we have discussed this somewhere here on BS. Don't let your bias make you delusional, as a matter of fact the goal scored by Bale was started by CR from left back position and he scored a penalty he created himself and I am not saying he was great, but he was definitely not bad. He wasn't redundant as you can see. I am not sure how Xavi ended up being in this topic but will skip. CR and Messi scored 12 and 10 penalties respectively during their best season to date. Although I know to BS they probably feel CR scored 20 penalties compared to 3 by Messi. That is if you end up believing the nonsense being said by how the other one is so GREATER than the other one according to expects on this site.
Perhaps you need to go back to school because the difference between "outplaying" and simply "outscoring" could not be anymore simple to understand. I would use Floyd Mayweather as an example -- most of his wins are "point wins" that he wins because he lands a lot of soft jabs. In other words, Mayweather lands a very simple punch, he barely uses elaborate combinations, and the rest of his boxing style is simply defense and counter attack jabs. Going by your biased logic, football is about "outscoring" your opponents, which means that boxing would be about "outpunching" your opponents -- neither of the two sports are as simple as "outscoring" or "outpunching". Mayweather is not the boxer who lands the most power punches, Mayweather is the boxer who lands the most insignificant punches and then manages to not get hit by any power punch -- this is similar to Xavi Hernandez completing a lot of "insignificant passes" but never giving the ball away to the opposition. And yes, just like a lot of people criticize Xavi for being boring, Mayweather is also criticized for being a boring boxer who barely uses flashy combinations or sensational KO power. In other words, Floyd Mayweather has "outboxed" arguably everyone who has stood in front of him by being, in the eyes of many, a boring boxer -- hence, the difference between "outscoring" and "outplaying". With Football that difference is infinitely greater, because "outscoring" is not merely about scoring the goals, it's also about creating the assists for all those goals, it's about defenders doing their job in their effort to prevent the opposition from outscoring you, etc. You want to pretend like you can determine "the framework that should be used to define greatness" when such a thing is clearly inconceivable to the human mind due to the simple fact that no human being or group of human beings can objectively claim that X thing is "greater" than Y thing -- again, it all depends on what you personally consider to be most important, but there is no way you can objectively invent an artifact that can "objectively define greatness". The fact that you actually suggested that such a thing as a "framework that should be used to define greatness" is actually possible, says a lot about what can only be either lack of intelligence or lack of experience or both.
This will help your argument for CR7. This is STATS for both scoring CR7 joined Liga *apples to apples- and CR7 seemed having more "important goals" scored than Messi in last 4 seasons for his club: Despite a near-identical goal tally, Ronaldo’s EPA is marginally higher than Messi, which suggests he scores more important goals than the Argentinean on average. Above all though, the graph highlights the staggering contribution in goals from the two players. To understand the average importance of each goal, we divide the EPA over goals to give the average goal weight (AGW).
Lol @leadleader comparing football to boxing now. In boxing, points are awarded for "outboxing" the opponent. It's the entire structure of the sport....wow... In football, no score is given for "outplaying" the opposition....Holy sh1t, this guy really keeps calling "logic" into question? Nobody has to "outplay" anybody in football to win. A team could be unable to string three passes together, have 5% possession, receive a red card and allow 20 shots but still win the game from one shot....lmao, someone is desperate. In football, you have to OUTSCORE the opponent to win. I could be mistaking, but I don't think I've ever seen a team win a match by scoring less goals....Maybe I need to watch more. "THE TEAM WHO OUTSCORES THE OTHER TENDS TO GET LITTLE IN RETURN----@leadleader
yes, i agree in football, goal is the most important aspect in order to win but are you saying with the finishing ability alone is enough to be the great player? great striker, yes great player, no
LMAO is this guy for real? A team could be unable to string three passes together, have 5% possession, receive red card and allow 20 shots but still win the game... Yes that can happen 2 times out every 20 matches or so. Also, a boxer can get his ass handed to him, barely land a punch all night long, and then land a very lucky power punch in the 11th round to get a shock win... there you have the "entire structure of boxing" destroyed by a lucky power punch; also, there you have your incredibly irrational argument falling under its own weight. I have to ask you, seriously -- do you really think about your embarrassing arguments before actually being shameless enough to post them on the internet, or do just don't care about how dumb and clueless you look? I ask because that one last effort at an argument was so very weak that I can't help but believe that your mind did any real work at all, I think your responses are more reactionary than they are well thought out. In Football, just like in Boxing, the team or fighter who "outplays" the rest tends to get the best results overall. If you rely on getting away with something that statistically can be proven to work approximately 2 times per every 20 matches, then, I am sorry to say this but your team will get little in return. In Football the team that "outplays" everybody else does not always win, but, that team will win the important trophies more often than not, more so than teams who just want to outscore their way to victory. In football you do need to outscore your opponent in order to win -- you can outscore all your opponents by 1-0 margins all season long, on the other hand another team may outscore most of their opponents by comfortable 4-0 margins all season long, and maybe, the team that outscores the opposition by 1-0 margins ends up winning the league title. Obviously, the team beating most opponents by 4-0 margins "outscored" everybody else, but just as obviously is the fact that, seeing how a team that scored less goals won the league title, that "outscoring" and "outplaying" are entirely different things -- just like in boxing, the boxer who has the most KOs might just loose against a fighter who has very few KOs on his record. You want to equate "scoring goals" to the very premise of football, when that obviously is not the case. A team that scored 152 goals in the league can always loose against a team that scored 120 goals in the league -- it has happened many times. For example, Atletico Madrid scored 77 goals in order to win La Liga 2013/2014, on the other hand, Real Madrid scored 104 goals to finish in 3rd place -- if you doubt my word, look it up in any respectable website, those are the figures for Atletico Madrid and Real Madrid in La Liga 2013/2014. Obviously, it shows that whilst one team soundly "outscored" the other, the team that scored the less goals "outplayed" everybody else. Football cannot be reduced to just a game "about scoring goals", football is a lot more complex and interesting than a mere goal scoring contest. That's "simple logic" for you, something that you obviously fail to grasp. Why did Atletico Madrid won the league despite being a lesser team when it came to scoring goals? Because when Atletico Madrid faced Real Madrid, they won the first game 1-0, and the second game was a 2-2 draw. Because when Atletico Madrid faced Barcelona, the first game was a 0-0 draw, and the second game was a 1-1 draw. There you have the difference between "outscoring" most of your opponents and "outplaying" most of your opponents. That's why Real Madrid finished in 3rd place despite having scored 27 goals more than Atletico Madrid managed to, despite scoring 4 goals more than Barcelona managed to. Barcelona scored 100 goals in la Liga 2013/2014, and finished in second place, just barely loosing La Liga in the very last match of a long season. So even when Messi is "lazy" and becoming a "set up man", Barcelona still scores 4 goals less than Real Madrid, in addition to finishing in 2nd place barely loosing the league title in the final minutes of the final match, and I do mean "barely" when I say it because Barcelona was extremely unlucky not to have won the game that would've given them their 4th La Liga title in the last five seasons -- in any case, it is extremely clear, that CR7 scoring all his goals does not translate into Real Madrid doing great things.
Just stop it. You keep talking about logic but fail to understand that football is totally different to boxing...actually what are you on about? I will appreciate if you can show me anywhere where I pretended to have some sort of framework to define greatness! The only thing I said was that it would help if there was such a thing as there will be no need to shift the goal post every time we discuss about whether the player is great or not. For example if we know that for the player to be considered great he must meet this criteria or tick more boxes than most in the criteria the arguments were going to be based on facts rather than intangibles. There will be no need to diminish or hype the importance of other factor over others. E.g we will know that a player needs to win the league with his team, be top assister, be top scorer, win CL, win WC, score only winning goals, should not inflate his stats by scoring against minnows as other greats also used to avoid doing so, should not take penalties, should provide x number of through balls/square balls irrespective of whether he plays from the wing or middle, etc. I have seen criteria being changed over and over to justify the greatness of some players over others. My problem arises when the following year another player meets this criteria only to find out that it has since changed. Over the years this has resulted in so many controversies which IMO should have been avoided if we had the framework or criteria I am talking about.
I hope this is my last comment on this as it seems somebody got himself confused over his own arguments. Simply put: In football or soccer you can never lose a game if you out score your opponent, NEVER. The issue is not about out scoring them by 10 or any crazy number, it is just about out scoring them. 38 1-0 wins will get you the league irrespective of performance of your rivals when they aren't playing against you. The unlucky Barca or Madrid scoring 104 games, Messi being lazy, Mayweather, etc just clutters the thread with unnecessary info.