Best ever veteran player (35-36 years +)

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by PDG1978, Jan 5, 2014.

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Who was the best player in history after his 35th birthday?

  1. Roberto Baggio (Italy - >=2002)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Dennis Bergkamp (Netherlands - >=2004)

    4.7%
  3. Cafu (Brazil - >=2005)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Johan Cruyff (Netherlands - >=1982)

    7.0%
  5. Alfredo Di Stefano (Argentina - >=1961)

    14.0%
  6. Tom Finney (England - >=1957)

    2.3%
  7. Ryan Giggs (Wales - >=2008)

    4.7%
  8. Nils Liedholm (Sweden - >=1957)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Paolo Maldini (Italy - >=2003)

    7.0%
  10. Stanley Matthews (England - >=1950)

    23.3%
  11. Roger Milla (Cameroon - >=1987)

    2.3%
  12. Ferenc Puskas (Hungary - >=1962)

    4.7%
  13. Romario (Brazil - >=2001)

    9.3%
  14. Peter Schmeichel (Denmark - >=1998)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  15. Peter Shilton (England - >=1984)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  16. Francesco Totti (Italy - >=2011)

    7.0%
  17. Fritz Walter (Germany - >=1955)

    2.3%
  18. Lev Yashin (Soviet Union - >=1964)

    2.3%
  19. Dino Zoff (Italy - >=1977)

    4.7%
  20. Other (please specify on thread

    4.7%
  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid

     
  2. Calculator

    Calculator Member

    Aug 6, 2021
    So have all the pundits stopped blaming Ronaldo for ruining Man Utd’s system?, because that’s what they were doing like, a week ago
     
    leadleader repped this.
  3. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC

    Now the story is all about how Ronaldo is 'saving' and 'carrying' Manchester United. Just to be clear...

    1. Ronaldo's 1-1 goal, while excellently executed, was a relatively easy goal served on a silver-platter by Bruno Fernandes.

    2. Ronaldo's 2-2 goal was an extremely lucky goal, directly assisted by an incredibly lucky deflection; yes the goal was perfectly executed by Ronaldo, but this level of luck factor is very unlikely to repeat on high difficulty games versus better opponents than Atalanta.

    3. Manchester United did not win the game.

    4. Ronaldo always ends up 'carrying' clubs that do not deserve him, like Juventus, and like Manchester United; the story repeats itself, and Ronaldo fanboys will never sufficiently comprehend the fact that Ronaldo simply benefits from receiving literally all of the service; Bruno Fernandes literally specializes in passing the ball only to Cristiano Ronaldo.

    Mesut Ozil also specialized in passing the ball only to Cristiano Ronaldo, and the result was bad. Real Madrid did better in La Liga 2011-12 and La Liga 2016-17, when the service distribution was more or less evenly distributed across the team.

    5. Are modern clubs allergic to man-marking defensive strategy?? Many of Ronaldo's goal, especially his 2-2 goal, could be canceled with efficient man-marking strategy. Ronaldo's positional intelligence is great, of course, but he scores goals that would be impossible to score back in the 2000s, when the idea of man-marking was still used efficiently, when necessary, even if it wasn't the default method of defensive strategy.
     
  4. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
  5. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Maybe good to put this Bergkamp video here now (made after the thread was started):

    Albeit I think I even find the 2001/02 version (a bit below the cut-off for the thread) more entertaining (maybe even the most entertaining in the series, not that I think it was his peak as a season overall or as player in general as such)

    His agility and ease of movement was also a but further declined by 2004/05 I suppose, but in essence he was the same kind of player as in 2001/02 still, even moreso in the deep-lying supprt striker/AM role by then even (and when he got into his stride he could still get some decent speed up).
     
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  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #107 PuckVanHeel, Aug 3, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2024
    I think he is still a good mention yes.



    Just looked at the PL website now and he remains the oldest until now yes (between 2020 and 2024 no one who is past age 31 or so). Basically all from open play isn't it?

    For goalscorers with 10+ goals it is I think Sheringham in 2002-03, aged 36, but if you take away his penalties, it becomes Zola, also in 2002-03. Then Ibrahimovic in 2016-17 I guess? (less sure about Ibrahimovic)

    As I said before (in the euro 2000 thread):
    https://arsenal-mania.com/forum/threads/youre-roobish.6599/
    https://www.svenskafans.com/england/66680
    https://www.skysports.com/football/news/2328240/opta-player-of-the-month

    In that February 2005 month (with open play goal and win vs Manchester United!) he didn't play the last game of the month and was out in the 74th minute (1 assist) and 79th minute (1 goal, 1 assist) in two other games. So maybe he'd be 'OPTA player of the month' if he had played everything and/or the last match in the month. This was the last time Arsenal finished in the top two (which they always did between 1997 and 2005).

    In combined goals and assists (excl. penalties) he is really joint-third with Hasselbaink, behind Henry and Lampard for 2004-05. In this season England was #1 in the coeffients.
    https://kassiesa.net/uefa/data/method4/ccoef2005.html#google_vignette

    edit: on a per 90 minute rate him and Robben are #2 and #3.
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Ibrahimovic is the oldest to score 15 or more



    17 goals (including 2 penalties)

    Still think he wasn't the best 'team player' however.
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I couldn't confirm off the top of my head if Bergkamp's 04/05 assists are 100% from open play, but the video can help and/or checking the Premier League website (04/05 games) and then Youtube for highlights (or the overall Bergkamp assists video if it remains available).

    Yeah, Zola had such a good season in 02/03 that Abramovic wanted to keep him at Chelsea. Maybe a big call, but potentially his best Chelsea season since his debut one in 1996/97 (going by average rating on DBS Calcio that would seem correct actually, but whether he was really a better player in/over that season compared to 1998/99 perhaps or 2000/01 maybe could be in question I guess).
     
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  10. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    This is outdated

    was 37 years old at the time of this record(born in 1985)
     
  11. calabrese8

    calabrese8 Member+

    Feb 9, 2008
    Vancouver
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    if we include outside of PREM (forgive me if there are La Liga or Bundes ones too).. but since I follow Serie A:

    Luca Toni (Hellas Verona) in 2015 scored 22 goals (Age 38) and was Capocannoniere (Golden Boot) along with Mauro Icardi.

    Dario Hubner (Piacenza) in 2002 scored 24 goals (Age 35) and was Capocannoniere along with David Trezeguet. What makes him even more unique is that he didn't play a single Serie A game until he hit 30 years old; Late Bloomer.
     
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  12. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member

    Jan 28, 2020
    Yeah, Liedholm also topped the ratings in 1956-57 with 35 and 1958-59 with 37 - the latter the same age as Baggio.

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/serie-a-old-ratings.2109524/#post-38601895

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/serie-a-old-ratings.2109524/#post-38610159

    Liedholm and Baggio's feats were impressive
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I just saw @CristianoPuskas shared this a few days ago on twitter and youtube. He was 34 and 9 months here (I'd say yes that - excluding Feyenoord players - he is possibly my #1 favorite player, yes)




    So a few months before 35, the title of the thread, but for that see post #107

    But nice that CristianoPuskas still has something positive to say about Cruijff, in an indirect way ;)
     
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  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Di Natale, although not in the glory period of Serie A (and not doing a lot outside the domestic games?)
     
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  15. calabrese8

    calabrese8 Member+

    Feb 9, 2008
    Vancouver
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    yes thats true.. Di Natale was one of my fav "underrated" strikers in Serie A. However, I didn't mention him as once he hit 35 was when his decline begun after scoring back to back 23 goal seasons at age 33 and 34.

    Another small striker from Napoli that had a great 35yr old season was Fabio Quagliarella. He hit 26 goals for Sampdoria and tied Batistutas record of scoring in 11 straight Serie A games.

    One of his goals from that year was this beauty that was a Puskas nominee
     
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  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    He would be pretty close to my favourite non-Nottingham Forest player (there were some possible suggestions he could become one in 1995 I remember though), and I would say in effect at certain points he would have been my favourite current football player (eg around World Cup 1998 and for a while either side of that, then also during 2001/02 probably as another example).
     
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  17. pregra

    pregra Member

    Barcelona
    Argentina
    Dec 1, 2008
    Norway
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    This is going to sound a bit mad, and I apologize if it's already been mentioned in the thread, but didn't Tugay have some pretty awesome years at Blackburn when he was very old footballing wise? Or maybe he just looked old... remember him bossing some games completely, barely being able to jog.
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #118 PuckVanHeel, Sep 12, 2024
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2024
    I just saw this - that was when he was 34-35 yes in that season (mostly 34; b. 10 may 1969):


    The full video is on youtube, I see.

    Of course, some time before I had already seen this.

    https://www.thetimes.com/sport/foot...st-scanners-visualise-field-of-play-n37kzltx9
    (he was more productive the season after this though; 3rd of the league excl. penalties both accumulative and per 90)

    December 2023:

    In Freddie Ljungberg's Unseen, made by the Swedish broadcaster Viaplay, the Swede says that the Dutchman is the best finisher he has ever played with and shares a nice anecdote.

    "I'm often asked who the best player I've ever played with is. I really don't know," says Ljungberg about his football career. "That question is really impossible for me. I do know who the best finisher I've ever played with is. That was Bergkamp. In certain positions you really knew he was likely to score. I never doubted that. No one else finished as well."

    "A nice anecdote," Ljungberg continues. "I hope he doesn't mind me telling you this. We players took a few corners and it didn't go so well. I don't think he was too happy about that. After the training session he said: you have the goal there and you're on this side, then you can turn the ball into the goal with your right foot. He demonstrated it once and turned the ball into the top corner of the far corner. He said: it's that easy, you can do this too. So yes, if you can put the ball anywhere from that distance, then you're pretty good."


    Despite, as mentioned above, still doing well in the indexes he didn't really register in the awards and stuff (he was 'Player of the Month' for February 2004 however, the Chelsea game was at the end of this month). That's how those things usually go, also (very clearly!) in sports where it is about crossing the finish line first with your Laureus shows and the like. Then you have the 'Cox ear whisperer' noting him game after game for 2003-04, but in the end ignoring this, fall back into line, plus an additional further 'second handicap' and bump down for other players of ours (compared to the initial position in 2004; this will also happen for 2024 decades later).

    No, let's write a row of articles about how bad our managers and coaches are (do they realize how damaging the departure of, say, Wiegman has been for our own woman's game? Arsenal and the likes are already plotting and scheming a semi closed shop - quite a sense of entitlement to say this after you have just won 1-0 against the Norwegians). "Their players aren't known for doing well" and other blahblah (seriously?).

    https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5506610/2024/08/15/arne-slot-dutch-managers-premier-league/
    https://www.thetimes.com/sport/foot...ch-premier-league-managers-analysis-wksxp85jg

    Here is an article from November 2000, where Placar celebrates Romario his scoring exploits (Romario was 34.5 years old then, so close to 35). In a comparison with then active players, they put Bergkamp also in the top 10 of the highest goalscorers.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=HupNzrJcQt8C&lpg=PA45&dq=romario bergkamp&hl=nl&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q=romario bergkamp&f=false

    Many poindexters would say: the Eredivisie years inflate this. Might be, but Bergkamp was then also certainly scoring at a higher rate at national team level and arguably European level.

    There are also many players for whom the opposite applies, like his contemporary Bryan Roy (one year younger). He scored (and assisted) a lot more when he was in Italy and England. Anyway, excluding Feyenoord players I'd say he is quite possibly my favorite player yes.
     
  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, the full video looks good/interesting for sure (I didn't see it before on TV):


    I guess when he talks about 'The Invincibles' he could be merging the early-mid 00s seasons together a bit and generalising maybe.

    What he says about Bergkamp I agree with for sure anyway.

    I suppose Bryan Roy did play more as support striker at Forest, and somewhat at Foggia too I think, while at Ajax he played as outright (although attacking/high) winger....
     
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  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #120 PuckVanHeel, Sep 13, 2024
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2024
    Ljungberg his compatriot Henrik Larsson is also a favorite of mine (and a good 35+ example surely, even if not playing everything and every game) but has a link with Feyenoord of course. Another example of someone who scored at a higher rate in other leagues. Just like Ibrahimovic.

    The 2006 CL final:
    https://youtu.be/B0hi9sObbcg?si=7avBP3gJsAP2vM0I
    (Rijkaard was the manager then, of course - Arsenal had been playing with 10 men for a long-time and he sensed this was the moment to make a move forward)



    (the first team-mate in the frame is Peter Bosz :laugh: then with hair, now a bald fraud)

    Ljungberg his idea Bergkamp could put an idle ball anywhere seems believable to me (all players make mistakes of course and it is not like 'take 100 kicks and all 100 are good'). The idea he was an efficient finisher also rings a bell to me (similar to RvN, RvP I'd say - for RvP there is already more available, where we can see how he compares to his peers of that time).


    (0:24 - pass to Ljungberg)

    Although this was (in my view) a sub-standard season, the last in his career, this is a good game when he was 36 years old (36 plus 3 months to be precise). The match commentator says that too. He remains the oldest Premier League player with 10+ assists in a season, yes. That still holds. But that is also a matter of 'luck' (in general the main emphasis is on the best five years for me, but it is not like longevity counts for nothing)

     
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  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Here another match from 2005-06 (2004-05 also qualifies and is a much better option, yes, for the multiple reasons stated above; both cumulative and 'per 90', the oldest EPL player with 10+ assists in a season and being detected in the indexes):


    He looks reasonably quick there at 0:50 - at the age of 36.5. He wins a penalty at 5:30 with good skill.

    'Famous' is of course the game against West Bromwich Albion (15/04/2006). The Arsenal supporters had dressed themselves in Orange. Bergkamp came on a substitute (John Motson says the top four place was in danger). He had the assist for 2-1 and then scored the 3-1.


    (4:25 to 8:00 - Alan Hansen his glowing comments at 9:20. As Hansen says, he was almost 37 then, one month short)
     
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